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Hi, I've not been here for a while but I spotted this thread by chance on Google and as I'm currently  building the Scorpio kit of the 3MT,  I thought I'd have a look.  From what I've seen here and on their stand at Guildex, Dapol are making an excellent job of it. It will probably be the death knell for the Scorpio kit which is a very old design with many faults. Although a relatively cheap kit to buy, when you add on the cost of a decent motor/gearbox, a set of Slaters' wheels and a few replacement castings from Laurie Griffin and Ragstone, you've spent more or less the cost of the Dapol analogue version of their RTR model.  And then you have to build and paint it! 

As others on here, notably Jim Snowden have  pointed out, the Scorpio kit is not the easiest of builds with many faults, so I can't  see anybody wanting a 3MT to run on their layout buying this kit in future. Unless of course like me, you like and prefer to build your models from kits. Negative comments aside, it can be made into a decent model. There's still a lot to do but this is the state of play so far.

It is heavily modified with many scratch built parts including the bunker, brake pull rods, brake crank and cylinder plus detailed front pony trucks with the rear one modified to represent the swing link version fitted to the prototype. 

For anybody interested, the build is documented on Western Thunder. 

Cheers,

Peter

12 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Fit the ashpan sides inside the frames before assembly, there's a slot in them for the spacer to fit through.

Strictly speaking there wasn't a "combined dome and top feed", this is just a partly dome shaped top feed cover, the boilers are domeless.

Hi Mike ,

I  could be wrong but I don't think the ashpan sides should be flush with the inner face of the frames. If they were, there would be no room between the front edges of ashpan and the rear spring hangers on the middle axle. I  set the sides inboard of frames so I could fit the scratched up plastic laminates to the springs. It's  not a critical point, but I think even in 4mm, the appearance would be improved by setting them inboard a little This could be done by soldering them to the spacer before fitting.

Cheers,

Peter

On the 7mm model I used a Laurie Griffin Ivatt class 2 chimney. However, the Ivatt 2s carried three different chimneys, a tall thin version, a medium wider version and a shorter wide version. I used the last one but had to to reduce the height by about 3mm by sawing in two, filing down and resoldering the parts together with a sleeve inside for strength.  This is a link to the chimney. He also does the tall and medium version.

https://www.lgminiatures.co.uk/product/6-017-lms-ivatt-2mt-locomotive/

Hope this helps you chaps in sourcing a  suitable 4mm chimney.

Cheer,

Peter

23 hours ago, Gordon A said:

Just an observation - steam heat pipes are smooth not ribbed. That is how you can tell the difference in poor light.

A cracking model.

 

Gordon A

Hi Gordon,

Just had a quick look in one or two books on LMS locos and can find plenty of illustrations showing locos with ribbed steam pipes. These shots of 2500 taken at the NRM also show ribbed steam pipes so I am not sure you correct. I haven't spent any time looking, but I dare say it would be possible to find examples that are smooth as well,  but I'm happy with the ones I've fitted. 

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Dave,

My apologies for the off topic comments. 

Good luck with the sales of the A4.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Rbird,

It doesn't need a repaint. Ignore the flap issue it's nothing compared to the turn in on  the tender front which is a hang over from the A3, no doubt  standardised by Hattons to keep the cost down. Adding a length of beading, buying the nearest paint option and adding a bit of red or yellow or whatever  it needs to match the existing colour is neither here not there.  As to the comment made earlier about the impact on collectors, do they care?  Surely they collect items for what they are not what they should be.  The short falls in authenticity in Hornby Dublo, Basset Lowke or tin plate doesn't deter collectors.

If you want a value for money A3 or A4, then buy one. If you are a modeller then you can correct the errors if you wish. If you cannot correct the errors and they bother you so much, don't buy one. There are other RTR options but as I said before you have to pay a lot more for them. You get what you pay for - simple. 

First of all, let me say I have no connection to Hattons, have no interest in purchasing RTR models of the A3 or A4, but would suggest that they should be congratulated for developing two fine 7mm LNER Pacifics and bringing  the  to market for £750.

The amount of whinging and whining about this or that shape, this or that detail beggars belief!  These are ready to run models for layout running, not exhibition standard display models. L. H. Loveless, and others do those sort of models for 2 grand a throw. Don't want one of those, then you can  buy a DJH or Finney 7 kit of both for around £650. Then there's £150 or so for wheels and £100 for a decent motor/gearbox.  Oh, and then you have to build them, let's say 120 hours of work. Oh, then you have to paint and line them. Don't want to do either, then you have to pay for it to be done. I may be wrong but I would guess that most people capable  of building these kits to a least the standard of the Hatton's RTR models will be over 25 ( that's the demographic in 0 Gauge), so on the national minimum wage that's £8.21/hour, costing you another £985. So for going on 2 grand, you can buy a top end kit, the wheels and the motor and have it built to at least the standard of the Hatton's models (most likely better). Then you have to pay for a good pro to paint it so a few hundred quid more. Or you can can buy something RTR from the likes of Mr. Loveless for 2 grand plus.

Those of you who won't be  buying one now  because the  valve gear is toy like, or the cab handrail is missing, or you don't know where to source the wire and the knobs to fit the handrail, make me ill. Years ago before 4mm RTR was as good as it is now, modellers would scrape off the moulded handrails and fire irons and super detail them. Or buy a kit and build it themselves,  because they were modellers.  

So congratulations Hattons Dave for a cracking RTR A4 and A3 at cracking prices! 

So just to reiterate to  the whingers, for £750, you won't get these.

Finney 7 A4.

Oh and look,  I had to add the rivets around the casing joints at the front and the rivets on the lower doors because they weren't there. The  valve gear is authentic and is reversible on both models and the lubricator linkage works on the A4. But if you don't want toy like valve gear, you have to build it yourself.  Although to be fair to Hattons, their valve gear is better than is seen on many kit built models, so no excuses on this point.

Or this.

Finney7 A3.

PS. I have no connection to Finney7. I'm just a satisfied customer of their excellent products.

Rant over.

Just to complete the picture regarding the rear truck and brake rigging, I've scratched up the brake shaft support etc. and clearance is fine in 7mm. However, to be safe, I reduced the length of the shaft and bracket width to give a bit more clearance. I think it should be possible to do something similar in 4mm if required, but I don't know what parts Mike will include.  Heres the bracket ready to fit. It is screwed to an extra spacer added to the frames as it needs to be detachable as the rear most pull rod coincides with the bogie pivot screw.  The hand brake crank at the rear should be separate from the vacuum brake crank but I made them as one for simplicity. As with the bracket width,  its not noticeable on the rails.

Here it is installed. The truck is screwed in place first, then the end of the pull rod is inserted into a hole in the cross shaft shackle and the bracket inserted between the truck frames and screwed to the spacer.  Please not, the cross shafts and shackles are scratch built, not the etched parts. I didn't add the brake cylinder as this is totally hidden up inside the frames.

Here you can see the degree of swing that is available for the truck which gives no problems on the curves. I didn't use Mike's compensation system on the rear axle, so I don't know if those parts would be impacted on by the extra brake fittings.

Sorry for the hijacks Mike,  but as this is a direct scale up of the 4mm etchings I thought it might be of interest.  

Thanks again for letting me have the spare 7mm etchings.  Nothing fancy about the design, but the fit of the parts has been excellent and a joy to build. I like your philosophy on not adding parts that can only be seen by picking up the model ,  although I do like to add the brake rigging in more detail, but that's easy to do and after all we are supposed to be modellers.

Good luck with the sales of the 4mm version. 

Cheers,

Peter

The forum wouldn't let me add further images in the lasts post but this image shows the U frame placed on the A frame and the extra clearance it affords.

But viewed on the track it's not possible to see if it's an A or U frame.

Cheers,

Peter

4 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I've just redrawn the trailing pony truck frame, I think the single thickness brake shaft bracket can be an extension of the compensation knife edge. It's that that is really needed, the shape of the truck frame isn't noticeable from the side and I don't bother with detail that requires the loco to be turned over to see.

I would agree with that Mike. Whilst the U frame offers clearance to represent the brake shaft bracket, it offers nothing visually when the model is on the track. This afternoon I removed the A frame from the rear truck and scratched up a U frame, purely to allow some clearance. Here's the front and rear trucks for comparison.

And in the frames. Clearly there's much more space for the brake detail.

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I will be changing the trailing truck frame but not reproducing the exact brake arrangement since this would restrict the truck movement far too much for a working model. I'll probably put in one brake shaft bracket on the centre line, just to have something to attach the pull rod to. this will probably allow enough swing but if it doesn't it could be left out.

Damn! Looks like I'll have to scratch up the U frame after all. Can't have the 4mm boys showing me up.

2 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

Is the 2-6-2 sticking with the pony trucks as they are or are you planning on changing the back one to the more U shape, not that it will put me off wanting 2 of them, just curious.

Hi Duncan,

As you are aware, Mike kindly offered to sell  me the spare set of 7mm test etches  that he had after I enquired if he would be making it available in 7mm. Originally I intended to modify the rear truck to have a U frame as per the prototype.  This may   have allowed for  full modelling of the brake crank, brackets and the brake cylinder. However, even on a 7 mm model it will not be visible so I've decided to stay with the pony as designed. As you can see in this view, once the cab steps are in place all that will be visible will be the last part of the pull rod and the bottom of the crank. I doubt if the fact that the truck has an A frame as opposed to  U frame will show when the step is on, so it's highly unlikely that it will show in 4mm. I leave it to Mike  to comment on how the kit will be on released, but I've decided it doesn't bring much to the party to be worth the effort. Also bear in mind that with a prototype brake rigging set up above the rear truck, there may not be clearance for the truck on curves, even with a U frame.

By the way, if the 4mm version goes together as well as the 7mm set of etchings have,   you 4mm boys have a real treat to look forward to. Bearing in mind, that I purchased a spare set of test etchings, I have been able to build this model without any instructions whatsoever. The design of the kit is very simple but everything fits as it should. Please note, Mike only supplied the etchings for this build and all the detail parts are from proprietary 7mm sources or the spares box. For those of you on Western Thunder who may be interested,  there is a full write up of the build so far.

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks Michael.

Hi Michael,

The Stanier 3P looks very nice.  Will it be available as a kit on your range, or is it a one off just for yourself? 

Cheers, 

Peter

Deleted

 

"I'm hoping to get the tender skin folded and fitted tomorrow. I will also investigate the tender glazing about which there is nothing in the instructions. There are some window frames in the etchings but no reference in the text. Perhaps I will use them as templates for clear plastic and then glue them in place......should have thought of this before though.........."

 

Hi Ray,

For  the  4MT tank, there is  a template in the  instructions for cutting out the  glazing. Strange there isn't one for  this.  Excellent build by the  way.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Deano,

Many thanks. Hope  you  enjoy the  threads on WT. The MOK and Finney 7 kits  are a joy to build. Complex yes, but  as everything fits so precisely, they are  very easy to build, if  you  already have experience of  building etched kits. I would  agree with Ray's comments on his  MOK 4F thread that although the  instruction are brilliant on the whole, in certain areas of  the  build they do go a  little AWOL and  leave  you  head scratching.  The new Finney 7 instructions are also superb and  can be  viewed on their  website. They have  also added revisions based on their  own and  other's observations, to improve  on the  already very good instructions by Martin Finney.

Here's a view of  the cab before  the  roof was soldered on. Note the  handles on the valves on the  right  hand side.  These were fitted as instructed, but  it  was  pointed out to me  that they should be  4 spoke  wheels with a peg.  Also there  is  one  control handle  and shaft missing for  the  injectors below  the  cab. There is  a hole in the  splasher to fit is  but  no mention in the  instructions. It should  in fact be mounted on a bracket off the  splasher. but  I will go for  the  easy option and  fit  into the  hole with epoxy. I can still get  to it  from underneath.

The cab floor and back plate are removable  via some tabs and  slots at the  front and  a simple clasp at the rear. This  will allow for  painting inside the  cab and  adding  the  glazing.

Here's the back plate after changing the  handles to the 4 spoke  wheels. There are loads of  spares on the  etch 

And a gratuitous shot  on my  brother's railway.

Interestingly, there was a reply before yours from another contributor, that is not there now. I won't go into detail, but it was well out of order and I assume it has been taken down by the  moderator, which is  just as well as I would  have reported it. I'll say no more, other  than I'd rather the  individual in question, does not  post on my threads.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter

What happened to the MOK 4MT tank build that I was looking forward to, as I'm thinking of getting one later??

 

Regards, Deano.

I started posting on Western Thunder as well as RMW. I then, for a number of reasons, decided just to post on WT. I do most of my posts from my phone and find it much easier to add images and edit the threads on WT than on here. I've just about finished MOK 4MT and have now started on the Finney 7 A4. You will find the threads in the Area 51 section.

And having this thread pop up reminds me that I must arrange to pick up the Duchess from Warren Haywood. It will give me a chance to see some more of his artistry up close.

Here's a couple of views of the 4MT.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi David,

Nice work.

Removing the jig sooner rather than later, gives the opportunity to offer up the frames, to check for any clearance issues. However, you will need to handle it with care now.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Ray,

If your  price  is right, the Acme one would  be a  good kit  for an experienced builder who's budget doesn't run to the  MOK kit. It can be  made into a  decent  model, but  it  has many challenges.  These are not  the  best of  images, but  it shows what can be  done.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Ray,

Nice work on the tender chassis. If I read your original post correctly you also have or had, the Acme kit for the Ivatt 4F. Many years ago I built the College Models kit which Acme took on, so the same kit. Believe me you made the right choice in going for the MOK kit instead. The Acme kit is truly awful. Mine turned out OK in the end but it was a nightmare to build compared to MOK. I've not built the 4F but am close to finishing the BR 4MT, which has been an absolute joy. It's like comparing a Model T Ford to the latest BMW. I look forward to seeing how you get on. There's a build on Dibateg's thread that you might find useful.

Cheers,

Peter

morning,

 

I would like to resurrect that thread.

At this time, the "heavy duty universal rivet tool" is not available.

My question is: Are the smaller versions good enough for 7mm kit building. I notice that there is a standard and a universal version available. Which one would you recommended?

Has anybody any idea about packaging and posting to continental Europe?

Did anybody pick up the tools personally in Lancing?

 

best regards,

Michael

Hi Michael,

For 7mm kit building you do not need the heavy duty version. Postage will depend on the weight, but I am on holiday in Germany so cannot check mine. Perhaps somebody else on here can tell you and you can check on line the postage cost. That will of course depend which courier is used. If you have the GW number, give him a call and I'm sure he will advise you.

Cheers,

Peter

As a footnote, here it is with the cab glazing complete. It will be on Warren Haywood's stand at Telford if anybody would like to see it in the flesh.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the clarification on the artwork. From what I've seen of your work I'm sure it will be an excellent likeness, with the missing 7mm only apparent if the model is placed next to one of the correct scale length.

Cheers,

Peter