Phil Copleston

Good evening folks,

A bit more on the Dukedog. He has just come out of the Swindon paint shop and still awaits number (and perhaps name) plates.

Looks super, John. Within a short 1930s time-window you have quite a choice of names carried by some Dukedogs before they were removed: 3205 'Earl of Devon' might be appropriate! 

Incidentally, I think it's a little bit cheeky to describe building a motor as "insane". At the time Stewart Hine built his 45XX in the early 1960s, it was the only option.

 

Mark

I quite agree, Mark. At the time there was nothing 'insane' about making your own motor. Indeed, for some it was the preferred option to avoid having to compromise on the scale outline of the superstucture by trying to otherwise squeeze in an over-large commercial motor.

Pioneering John Penri-Griffiths (of 2mm scale, 4mm gauge 'Vale of Penwal' layout fame) published an article in Model Railway News in the August 1958 issue ('Building J B Earle' - see attached) in which he advocated constructing the very small body shell of his 2mm NG locos FIRST, then went on to build the chassis. Only then would he make a home-made motor to fit the remaining available space. This was to ENSURE the prototypical outline of the tiny model was not compromised. Quite the opposite construction sequence of supposed modern modelling 'good advice'. And one which still has a lot of merit I think, particularly for very small models.

Stewart Hine and Denys Brownlee held a day-seminar on motor contruction at Keen House, London, in the mid 1990s which I attended. Each of them practically demonstrated how to make your own miniature electric motors: Stewart the home-made iron-cored conventional motor, fabricating the armature stampings, making a comutator etc; Denys showed his home-made coreless motors, took them apart, and demonstrated how to wind and embed in resin the armature looms.

We all went home from Keen House having the apparent mysteries of these wonderous devices dispelled, and clutching written instructions and diagrammes of how to make them, and a 'kit of materials', thin sheet iron, bobbins of armature wire etc. to give us a start at having a go ourselves. All very enlightening. And not the sort of heavily practical demonstration one is likely to encounter today, more's the pity.

So don't knock it. There may be lots of cheap coreless instrument motors flooding the online market these days; some rather robust and very usable, others less so. But the art of making your own motor (like hobbing your own gears) is not one that should be lightly dismissed. Stewart Hine and Denys Brownlee were craftsmen in the good old fashioned sense and got personal satisfaction from making it themselves. But more importantly, they were more than happy to pass on their skils and modelling philosophy of "if you can't buy it then get stuck in and make it yourself". A scratchbuilding creed worth reviving, methinks.

'Building J B Earle' loco construction article by J Penri Griffiths (MRN Aug 1958, p181-83, 201).pdf

I recognise that setting!  Pleased to see the layout is still around.   I see a proper backscene has been added.  It'll be 29 years old this autumn.  That's scary!

 

The Radial tank looks very nice - good job!

 

Mark

Oh yes, Mark - good ol' Clive Road Sidings! We spent many a happy exhibition shunting wagons around on that thing while promoting 2-mil modelling. Happy days. 

Ah, Eurotrack in Southampton Guildhall(?)  I have a photo of us there in 1989, against that same dark paneling.  Eurotrack is still going strong, and STILL being managed by Ian How!

Blimey Dave, our paths must have crossed all those years ago! Yes, Southampton Guildhall. I bumped into Ian Howe at the St Albans show three or four years ago - he has hardly changed! And he still has some British HO - which I sold to him after I ceased dabbling in it. Fun times.

You will see if you examine closely the photo of me in post #308 above, that - as this was Eurotrak - the stock on display is not British 2-mil, but actually an Iberten Spanish 'Cuckoo' and matching 4-wheel coaches converted to 2mm finescale 10.5mm gauge. Another former indulgence of mine, now thankfully passed on. 

Ummm... anyway, perhaps we ought to cease this discussion as otherwise this may turn into "Old Codgers" reminiscence corner!   

Gosh, I remember Phil with all that hair, mine was a similar length back then. We first met at a fledgling area group in Bristol. - can't remember the date but it was in the eighties. Phil?

 

Jerry

Yes Jerry, at Tony Pickering's top-floor flat in Clifton in 1984-85-ish. I still have a copy of Kelvin's original plan for a 2mm Somerset Colliery layout scheme. I wonder whatever came of that idea? In the late 1980s we used to hold 2-mil Area Group meetings at Tony's shared house in Montpellier, which is where I also met JB-S. Jolly times!

Phil looked a bit different in those days. I've been waiting for ages for an excuse to post this photo I found in the 2mm archives! 

Andy

Good heavens, Andy! I think that must have been at Southampton Eurotrak in the early 1990s.

Well, well, let's see if I can dig out some snaps of a younger Mr. Hanson... Touché! 

Edgbaston and Bilton ! Gosh, Andy I didn't know you were that old. Did your Mum know you were out? I remember Edgbaston for the first occasion that I met Stephen Harris, introduced by Bernard Taylor. I saw some interesting diesel models (Class 40 and Class 20) on display and asked Bernard who had built them and he told me it was Stephen. I discovered that we lived close to each other, he in Amersham and me in Chesham. It was the beginning of a long, but more occasional these days, friendship.

 

David

David,

Double gosh! I was at that same Edgebaston 2-mil do as well. Must have been 1983, as I was back in Britain and at Uni. Did we meet for the first time there? Heavens!

Are you also taking railway books, please, Phil?

Oh yes, Capt'n! Books, kits, tools, ready-to-run, Japanese brass - anything railway or modelling-related.But err... no 'junk' please.  

Chaps - what is the charity that will benefit from the event this year, please?

 

Thanks.

Chaps and chapesses (!),

I am proposing the Bring & Buy surpluses we generate go to the same good cause as last year, i.e. Macmillan Nurses https://www.macmillan.org.uk/information-and-support/coping/getting-support/macmillan-nurses.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwqYfWBRDPARIsABjQRYyYf2ZJzb598IhCu5_oPvrwPn6NEhxBwOn6lvxfzp_bqduQTSgCd4YaAiWdEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds 

Also, as Stu says, bring plenty of cash! Although I am hoping to have a credit card reader to hand on the day so you can spend your hard-erned even easier!

I shall be posting (on here) in the next few days, a down-loadable Bring & Buy form for you all to print, fill in, and bring with your goodies for sale. Same format and terms as last year as this seemed to work very well. As before, 10% of sales profits will go to our supported charity.

Time to rummage through your "I don't really need that anymore" boxes of stuff, generate some extra spends money for yourself, and help support a worthwhile cause!

...but I'm laid up with flu at the moment and not at the computer.

 

Jim

Oh no! Sorry to hear this. How rotten for you. Time for some armchair modelling? I recommend one of Wild Swan's layout planning books. Get well soon, Jim. 

<snip> Hours spent compiling a list or some sort of index is much better spent getting on and making stuff.

 

Jerry

Exactly! I quite agree, Jerry.

There's nowt like personal experience (and making mistakes) as a practical learning tool and simply getting on with it. Something I'm rediscovering all over again with my current 2mm layout project.   

Having said that, I always enjoyed browsing the old '2mm Handbook' - quite inspirational in its day. I still have my treasured and well-thumbed blue cover version. And there is still nothing like having a hardcopy in one's hand to refer to.

In fact, quite some years ago, a good friend of mine (you know who you are!) offered to revise the Assn. Handbook, cutting out all the irrelevant non-2mm sections (baseboards, wiring etc. as these are well covered elsewhere) and focussing on what is particular to modelling in 2mm scale. I thought that was an excellent approach.

But for various reasons, that attempt fell by the wayside. I think a loose-leaf, 'easily updated' format was also proposed, but I have never liked that idea. I like a proper book in my mitts! With the advent of the Internet, all sorts of alternatives to paper publishing are possible, of course. But for a good read and workbench manual, I still prefer a good ol' paper copy.

So, perhaps the '2mm Handbook' - at least as we once knew it - has had its day... Au revoir le manuel!

I had not really thought about making them available to anyone else - I think that they can all be made up into decent models but as one would probably expect as a first attempt at designing a kit of parts there are some minor issues which would need to be resolved before asking others to part with their hard-earned (and I haven't tried to paint them yet!).  In reality, I wouldn't really want to go to the expense of correcting the artwork and getting a new photo tool done once I have the models I wanted, perhaps somewhat selfish I know.  If others feel that they would like a copy of the etch with the odd issue however, I don't know whether they can order directly from PPD as they hold the photo tool.

 

Ian

Ian,

Well, I'd certainly like a set of these etches please! (We've spoken at shows about these coach etches before, if you recall.) Just perfect for my 2mm Cambrian 1920s-era project.  

Minor artwork issues aside, I think as a 2mm modeller I can deal with any corrections I may have to make in assembling them. And also, I can read your posts on here to see what the pitfalls might be, if needs-be.

Please PM me if you can offer me a set, and let me know the price. Or if you prefer, I could contact PPD myself and order a set direct.

Here is No 19. She must be twenty years old now and is starting to show her age - not helped by the rather heavy pre-airbrush paint job... When some descent transfers become available I will repaint her, along with one or two other older members of the stud.

Whatever your reservations about her, she still looks pretty spiffing to me, ol' bean! And I do like your 'home made' technique for the lettering. A very pretty blue engine that still does...    

A fishing boat that will come in handy for the quayside. This is a dutch kit from Artitec which I have 'anglicised'

 

David

"Gaelicised", surely!

Really good to see this long-term 2mm project of yours revived, David. I shall follow your posts with great interest (if only so I can nick your excellent ideas and techniques for use on my own 2mm layout!). Come to think of it, I reckon I've 'lived' with your 'big layout' project (in its various incarnations) almost as long as you have - as I remember seeing an early version of 'Kylestrome' at your flat in Twickenham back in the umm... mid-1980s! Almost as long in gestation as my own 2mm circular layout, I fear...   

Keep up the inspiring work!  

Hello and Happy New Year to all!

 

I have tried to subscribe to the "2mmNn3" Yahoo! Group by emailing the owner a week ago but no reply yet. I can see there has been no activity for over four years and I was wondering if anyone here can advise if the group is no longer maintained (I was most interested to see the photo albums).

Hello Valentin (and anyone else keen on 2mm NG/Nn3 modelling),

Indeed, I am the admin for the '2mmnn3' Yahoo Group, while Julia Adams is the actual owner. https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/2mmnn3/info Somehow I missed your email - sorry, but I have now approved your Group application. Welcome!

You are correct - there has been very little activity on the Yahoo Group's site of late. I suspect the issue is that such email discussion lists are a bit clunky and old hat these days. So I started a Facebook '2mm Scale Narrow Gauge Group' a couple of years ago and consequently this now receives a lot more attention. See: https://www.facebook.com/2mmScaleNarrowGaugeGroup/ 

A bit of background:

2mm narrow gauge modelling has a long history - going back to the early 1950s. In 1993, Mark Fielder and I started the '2mm Scale Narrow Gauge Group' as a Special Interest Group (SIG) of the 2mm Scale Association, which we remain part of. We eventually attracted upwards of 60 members and to support the group I published a series of eight periodic '2mm Scale Narrow Gauge News' magazines with some technical assistance (scanning of photos) from Roy C Link. This was fine for a while, but I ended up writing most of it which became a chore, so that ceased in 1998.

But Mark and I (as the '2mm Scale Narrow Gauge Group') have attended every Expo-NG in Swanley since 1994 with a 2mmNG layout and modelling demo, and at the erstwhile Narrow Gauge South West at Shepton Mallet from 1995 until that show's demise in Feb 2017. We also attended several other NG shows as the '2mm Scale Narrow Gauge Group' in between. 

Julia Adams started the '2mmnn3' Yahoo Group in Feb 2008 and asked me to jointly admin that Group. At first this received a lot of attention and I uploaded a lot of my 2mm NG archive photos and most of the newsletters as pdfs to that site, but it was again a lot of work. Interest eventually tailed off, as we found with the formal '2mm Scale Narrow Gauge Group'. The problem is that people are often happy to receive but do not always want to actively contribute.

But as a loose group we are still very active - with Mark and I acting more of a contact point than a formally organised group. This seems to work better and is less hassle to admin. As always, as a group we cater for 2mm (1:152 on various gauges, but mainly 4mm, 4.5mm, 5mm and 6mm) and N (1:160, 6.5mm and 4.5mm gauges) narrow gauge modelling. 

Anyway, to keep interest going and to provide an easier-to-access forum for discussions, in January 2016 I started the current Facebook '2mm Scale Narrow Gauge Group'. This is much better and is pretty much self-administering. Mark Fielder and I are the admins.

I also started a '2mm Scale Narrow Gauge' discussion thread here on RMweb in June 2016. This also contains some posts and photos.

Feel free to join any of these 2mmNG/Nn3 groups:

Facebook 2mmNG Group: https://www.facebook.com/2mmScaleNarrowGaugeGroup/

RMweb 2mmNG Group: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/111723-2mm-scale-narrow-gauge-group/

'2mmnn3' Yahoo Group: https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/2mmnn3/info

Bob placed a copy of the notes in the files area of the VAG, but could probably supply a copy by email if you contact him. I believe the basis of the notes was a one-day course that he ran some time ago.

Thanks Andy. I should have looked on the VAG. So will do now... 

Bespoke transfers and etched nameplates for Number 8, and Number 13 'Carisbrooke' turned up from Fox.

Hi Ian,

Oh, I had a look on the Fox website and couldn't find these etched IoW nameplates in their 2mm lists. As I have just acquired a Dapol 'Freshwater' myself, I would like to do the same. So I presume they 'bespoke' only for you.

Do you think these etched plates will be made available for general sale? i.e. can I order some from Fox?

PM me if you prefer.

I assume you've read the guide to etching artwork that Bob Jones produced some time ago?

 

Jim

I've heard about this before. Is this guide available on-line, Jim? Or is a copy only available direct from Bob?

Also what do people use for bending and folding etch parts? I have a set of bars but their just too big to use, I struggled with an old metal rule, tweezers and finger nails lol

David,

Welcome to the world of 2mm finescale modelling! If you are used to working in larger scales, you might find it useful to acquire some new tools which help you manipulate and accurately bend the tiny parts often found in 2mm kits. I too have a a set of GW 12" ground steel bending bars which are useful for coach sides, but are more applicable to my S scale modelling than 2-mil.

I would suggest therefore, that one of your first new tool purchases for 2mm modelling should be a "hold and fold" device - such as those made by The Small Shop. These are American made, but in my opinion are the very best you can get.

The Small Shop tools are available from various UK suppliers, but the keenest prices I have found are from https://www.historexagents.com/#product-gallery (search under "Brands"). Based in Dover, Kent, Historex Agents are primarily suppliers to military modellers, but they have a fascinating range of useful tools and bits and bobs useful to us railway modellers too. They also do online ordering and PayPal payments, so easy-peasy to order and get the goods! (Usual disclaimer.)

The Small Shop bending tools come in a range of sizes. I would suggest the 4" version is probably the most useful one to get at first, or perhaps the 5". The Small Shop also offer a tempting range of other useful metal bending and shaping tools too, such as their 'Photo Etch Bending & Rolling Delux Brass Assist' (various sizes of rollers and a former base-plate) and their 'Wrangler Wire Forming Tool' (a stepped cone-shaped device) used for making rings in various sizes. Not cheap (and you could spend a small fortune), but remember you are buying quality tools that will last many years and certainly will do the job!

I also have a really superb Mission Models EM-001 'Etch Mate' (also American made for the military modelling market). This is the precision metal version made from aircraft-industry quality aluminium (not the later awful plastic version 3C MIO-21), complete with extended folding blades. Unfortunately, manufacture of the pioneering aluminium Etch Mate ceased about 10 years ago, but they turn up on eBay from time to time. Mission Models https://www.missionmodelsus.com now only supply paint etc.

While I'm talking about useful tools, I also have a Mission Models' MIO-6 'Grab Handler' (a metal stepped triangular clamping tool), intended for making square cornered grab-irons for tank models and railroad box cars, but an incredibly handy tool to have about the workbench. It is probably a bit too chunky for making 2mm parts, but useful in the larger scales. Again, these occasionally turn up on eBay.

Good luck with your 2mm modelling, it's a lot of fun and very satisfying! (particularly when you have the right tools) 

EDIT 18/12/2017: add reference to 5" bending tool (as per post #16 below).and a few edits to clarify a couple of other points.

I certainly understood at the time that the Southwold items were intended to represent 3'-0'' gauge on 12mm. gauge track - ie. spot-on for 4mm. scale.

 

Regards,

John isherwood.

Hi John,

That's what I thought too! I need to dig out an early 1960s MRN or RM advert to be sure. But I've long believed the kits were marketed as On12.

In an earlier post (#413), 5050 listed these adverts for K's "Narrow Gauge", including this Southwold Sharpie. But what SCALE are they? 

And this is what the castings actually looked like:

Someone on the 5.5mm Association Facebook webpage claims they are to 5.5mm scale. But I always understood they were to 4mm scale for 12mm gauge (TT) track, i.e. OOn3 or OOn12.

Does anyone actually know the scale these K's "Narrow Gauge" castings?

Just received an email from PPD to say the etch has been dispatched and should arrive before 13:00 tomorrow.   With any luck it will come before I leave for our Area Group meeting.

 

Do I then start on the signal box or finish off the wagons?  Decisions, decisions!!  

 

Jim 

Finish the wagons, Jim! Then look forward to building the Signal Box. Delayed gratification. 

Thanks Adrian, a super set of exhibition photos. I enjoyed myself immensely at this the most friendly of shows I have been to in years! And I hope I entertained and informed all those who engaged with my demo. Would love to come back again sometime (perhaps with my more complete 2mm layout?).

Any idea on dates yet? My brother's getting married on 1st December so I won't be around that day!

Oh Rich, you're not 'available' on 1st December? A sense of correct priorities PLEASE! This is THE fabled SWAG Winter Evening Meal & Piss-up we are committing ourselves to here. All shalt otherwise be swept before it!!! 

Still, whatever the date, would be nice if you could make it.

Incidentally Tim, which date ARE you proposing?

Count me in too, Cap'n! The Chi looks excellent and easy to get to for me.

Did you have any dates in mind? Do we get their shared Xmas menu (all-you-can-eat main course!!)? Noodles with a sprig of holly on top, no doubt!