Tony Teague

Isn't it amazing that re-dating a model layout by 20 years can attract so much interest and become an "event" in its own right? I doubt that doing this to many layouts would cause so much interest, and it surely speaks volumes about the strength of the underlying layout, and of the team that Tony has pulled together around it. Most impressive; I wish you all a great weekend at LB! Tony

Many thanks - several helpful suggestions overnight! The place names were fairly deliberately manufactured; as posted a long way back, Churminster Station was built for me by Geoff Taylor based upon scale plans for Honiton station, whilst Axminster station (& many others) was to a very similar pattern, both designed by Sir John Tite. Conversely, I didn't want anyone saying the track plan, or whatever, didn't look right & "Honxminster" sounded awful - so it had to be fictitious. Whilst I have not modelled a specific prototype, I do want the trains, the operations etc, to be prototypical and, having started from a position of relative ignorance, as time passes by I am learning more and more about what prototypical means and looks like. In terms of visiting trains and / or locos, it seems relatively easy (and prototypical) to mix some foreign wagons & vans into freight trains, but far less likely that this would happen with carriages, excepting where specific inter-regional trains, or local services that crossed boundaries, were concerned. In the same way, it seems more likely that foreign locos would arrive with specific trains to certain locations, and although they were occasionally retained for a few days, for the most part they would then work back with the balancing service. I'd welcome further thoughts, but it looks like the number of 'foreign' locos I could justify will be tiny! - and it's not as if I don't have enough SR ones..... Tony

Thanks; these are helpful suggestions. I guess I need to decide what movements (if any) I want to model. I have looked this evening at "Southern Way" which I regard as a bit of a bible when it comes to matters Southern, and aside from the interchanges that have been mentioned in posts so far, there are a couple of quite interesting movements such as a GWR 'Hall' loco from Banbury or Reading on the York - Bournemouth West fish train - why would fish be brought to a seaside location from an inland one, I wonder! Another was an LMS ex-LNWR coal tank on the Kensington Olympia to East Croydon section of the Ffairfach (GWR) to East Croydon milk train - again, an odd combination on a convoluted route. Tony

Dave Yes that's helpful, I had not thought of the Didcot, Newbury line and will go in search of pictures. Obviously I am not trying to model everything but the occasional 'foreign' visitor woudl add interest. Tony

Andy Thanks, that's a bit more specific so what I need to do is consider whether it would be plausible for any of these to have reached Stowe Magna and / or Churminster - which rather depends on where I think they were situated! Jack Yes, I have an immediate post-war picture of a WD hauling a continental freight train between Dover and Hither Green, and I do have a Bachmann WD available to replicate this one. Thanks both! Tony

Thanks Denbridge, and in many ways that is why I think I'd need some specific routes and locos to be at all prototypical. Tony

Thanks Bryan & Zomboid. The V2 incident is a bit late for me but I am sure that if one looked at specific wartime events such as Dunkirk or the Normandy landings then there would be plenty of examples. I am wondering about more regular, "normal" stuff - the 43xx and Hall examples certainly might fit the bill. Tony

Before we leave the subject of locomotives,can anyone help me with suggestions as to what "foreign" locos (GWR, LMS, LNER) might realistically have been seen visiting SR locations within the 1938 - 1948 period modelled? Some time ago I acquired a couple of "foreign" RTR model locos, in ignorance, and simply because they were on special offer, but I now suspect that these are just plain wrong! I have certainly seen pictures of LMS Black 5's on pigeon trains, and LNER tanks fitted with condensing apparatus for the East London Thames tunnel but the latter did not appear to venture very far within the SR. I'd like to understand the type of loco, what sort of train it might appear on, and the degree to which it would actually have penetrated SR territory. All help appreciated! Tony

Chris Thanks - that is a very interesting quote. Luckily I have told Chris Phillips who is building this, that I'd like it in a dirty sage green - rather like my model of DS1169 - and I will then weather it, so in the end it may be quite a reasonable representation. Tony

If you don't like statistics, please ignore this post, but, whilst we are still on locos - a few stats arising from the "A-Z": 1. I counted 94 separate classes of loco owned by SR at nationalisation - counting both N15's and S15's as one class each, even though there were batches built under different Companies, but counting BB's and WC's as two classes. I believe this to be many more than for the other companies nationalised. 2. The collection includes examples of 75 (80%) of these, some in multiple liveries and some from multiple manufacturers 3. My missing list contains 19 classes which comprised just 131 locos (I had missed off DS74 & DS75 from the 'final' list even though I had said in the preceding sentence that they should be shown!); the corrected list is repeated below 4. Of the 19 missing classes, I have firm solutions in hand for 7, potential solutions for a further 7, leaving just 5 (representing only 31 locos) for which I currently have no clue! Delivering the 14 with known or potential solutions will be a challenge but will bring the collection up to 89 of 94 (95%) - I'd really like to get to 100%! 5. When I started the collection there were only 2 or 3 SR locos for which RTR models were available, and although this has since increased dramatically, the collection still only includes 27 RTR examples, and 4 of these are cases where two different manufacturers have produced RTR models - so only 23 different RTR classes (25% of all) are represented. This means that 61 classes (65%)are still not represented in RTR - so there must still be a future for kits and kit-building so far as the SR is concerned.. 6. The collection includes kit-built representatives of 61 classes (of the 75 it represents), and RTR models of 27 as above, so 88 representations of 75 classes; this apparent anomaly shows that for 13 classes there are both RTR and kit built models' These are mainly those which have appeared as RTR since the collection was started over 20 years ago. And finally - here is that list again: SECR Wainwright B1 (16) LB&SCR Billinton B4X (12) - potential solution through a 3D printed body under exploration LB&SCR Marsh C3 (8) LSWR Drummond C14 (3) - potential solution = CSP / Agenoria kit announced years ago but yet to be delivered LB&SCR Marsh D3X (1) - potential solution through indication of a forthcoming 3D printed body, chassis to be sourced LB&SCR Billinton E4X (4) LB&SCR Billinton E5X (4) - 3D printed body in final 'tweaking' + SEF chassis kit held for assembly LB&SCR Billinton E6X (2) - 3D printed body in final 'tweaking' + SEF chassis kit held for assembly SECR Wainwright F1 (9) - solution = Jidenco kit held but not yet in build SR Maunsell I1X (18) - chassis frames offered by Alan Gibson to be explored LSWR Drummond L12 (20) - solved, 3D printed, etched & cast by Arun Sharma, now in build on Hornby RTR chassis SECR Kirtey R (18) - solved, build in hand from SE Finecast R1 kit LSWR Drummond S11 (10) - potential solution to use cast L12 parts and modified SE Finecast T9 chassis to be considered Soton Dock Co. 0458 (1) - possible solution to modify CSP Agenoria kit CSP 04 under exploration KESR 0-8-0T Hecate (1) EKR 0-6-0T Victory (1) - solved, kit in hand from CSP Agenoria DS74 (1) - solved, kit in build from Judith Edge kits DS75 (1) - possible solution available via 3D printing Fowler diesel shunter (2) Tony

Thanks for all of your contributions. The model is now in the paint shop and so it will be what it will be! Tony

Thanks Chris I will keep an eye out for the Jidenco Ironside offering, although building their kits is not usually a populare pastime. Likewise the Hecate kit, and I will certainly take a look at the High Level Fowler. All very helpful, thanks Tony

I thought that I would get on and close out the "A-Z of Southern Railway locos" - so that we can move on, get back to the layout, weathering, sourcing the "missing" locos, and more modelling! Here then are the "sundry odds and sods" to complete the picture. First probably should be the ex-LSWR, ex-Southampton Dock Company, Hawthorn Leslie class 0458 0-4-0ST saddle tank, no 3458 'Ironside' - but I don't have one, and in some ways I am reluctant to extend my "missing" list by adding a number of these very obscure, one-off locos that were not on the main operational roster. Nevertheless I am currently exploring whether a model of this one can be made from a kit for a different loco that is currently available from CSP / Agenoria, and so I will put it on there, at least for the present. Next are the pair of ex-Plymouth Dockyard and South West Junction Railway, Col Stephens locos of classes "756" and "757", represented unsurprisingly by Nos.756 'A.S. Harris' and 757 'Earl of Mount Edgcumbe' - there was actually a 2nd class 757 loco, No,758 'Lord St Levan': These are both from CSP / Agenoria kits: Moving on we come to two classes each with a single loco, first the 'KES' class describing ex-Kent & East Sussex Railway No.4, a Hawthorn Leslie 0-8-0T that came to the SR in 1932 as No.949 'Hecate'; as with 'Ironside' above there is no known kit but I will add it to the "missing list" for the sake of completeness - but with little hope of ever crossing it off! The second of these single loco classes is also the last SR steam loco, the ex-East Kent Railway 'Victory' class loco, No.4 'Victory', built by Kerr Stuart; technically this did not come to the Southern until nationalisation in 1948 when it was given the BR number 30948. So would it have been SR No.948, and should I include it at all - who knows! Suffice to say that for this one there is a CSP / Agenoria kit which I have and it is awaiting building; for that reason alone it will go onto the "missing" list! And so to conclude, we move onto the few diesel & electric oddities, the first of which is DS1169, the Southern Railway's very own Ruston Hornsby 48DS diesel shunter; my model of this tiny loco is from a Judith Edge kit: It will just about hail one wagon or milk tank! Then we have two weird looking Fowler 0-4-0 diesel shunters, DS 400 and DS 600 - again there is no known kit and I'm most reluctant to add them to the "missing" list but I shall in the name of completeness. Lastly under the diesel heading we have the three SR shunters built at Ashford in 1937 with English-Electric engines; these were certainly part of the operating fleet; my model comprises a Golden Arrow resisn cast body on a Bachmann Class 08 chassis: And so finally to electric locos, and at this time there were only two, being DS74 and DS75; the former, the Durnsford Road shunter, is currently in build with Chris Phillips from a Judith Edge kit, and whilst the latter, the Waterloo & City line shunter, is on the "missing" list, a potential solution via a 3D printed body is under investigation. So here is the final "missing" list, which seems rather longer than when I started this exercise! I have shown the latest updates and I will of course report in future as it changes (& hopefully gets shorter) via this thread: SECR Wainwright B1 (16) LB&SCR Billinton B4X (12) - potential solution through a 3D printed body under exploration LB&SCR Marsh C3 (8) LSWR Drummond C14 (3) - potential solution = CSP / Agenoria kit announced years ago but yet to be delivered LB&SCR Marsh D3X (1) - potential solution through indication of a forthcoming 3D printed body, chassis to be sourced LB&SCR Billinton E4X (4) LB&SCR Billinton E5X (4) - 3D printed body in final 'tweaking' + SEF chassis kit held for assembly LB&SCR Billinton E6X (2) - 3D printed body in final 'tweaking' + SEF chassis kit held for assembly SECR Wainwright F1 (9) - solution = Jidenco kit held but not yet in build SR Maunsell I1X (18) - chassis frames offered by Alan Gibson to be explored LSWR Drummond L12 (20) - solved, 3D printed, etched & cast by Arun Sharma, now in build on Hornby RTR chassis SECR Kirtey R (18) - solved, build in hand from SE Finecast R1 kit LSWR Drummond S11 (10) - potential solution to use cast L12 parts and modified SE Finecast T9 chassis to be considered Soton Dock Co. 0458 (1) - possible solution to modify CSP Agenoria kit CSP 04 under exploration KESR 0-8-0T Hecate (1) EKR 0-6-0T Victory (1) - solved, kit in hand from CSP Agenoria Fowler diesel shunter (2) A longer list than I would have liked, yet I am pretty happy with where I have got to after about 20 years or so! I am sure that someone will point me at something that I have missed, and obviously any thoughts on the missing list will be most welcome! Tony

Many thanks!

I agree; I use LCE at Leamington Spa. The staff are knowledgeable and they seem to take the time to listen to the customer. (No connection etc). Tony

Mike Thanks for responding. Your kits is being built for me as this is not a skill that I personally possess! The builder has posed a question to me that I can't answer and I wonder whether you can help? It relates to the "resistance box" on no.1 end of the loco, directly in front of the cab, where there is a framework, together with a horizontal shelf, and a sloping top - the instructions indicate that the resistances should be 'glued to the shelf before adding the cover'. However, he is not clear as to whether the resistances should go flat (horizontally) onto the shelf, or stand up vertically against the front of the cab, but still resting on the shelf. I suspect horizontally, but I am not sure and I am not looking at the kit - can you assist by clarifying? Tony

I'm sure that Allan inspired many of us - me included - a massive loss to the world of model railways. I hope that in due course someone will pick up the suggestion made here quite recently and produce an illustrated book of "The Buildings of Allan Downes" - I'd buy it immediately. RIP Allan.

And so beyond "Z", and on to the SR numbered classes which were all ex-LSWR (with one possible exception - see below); of these, the first is the Beattie "well tank" class 0298, where both Nos.3298 and 3314 are recent RTR models from Kernow / Dapol: They are well detailed models which simply have different liveries: Next is the elegant Adams class 0395, where No.3441 is from a DJH kit: The Adams 'radial' tank of class 0415 follows; the single preserved example has quite a following, but I am not a particular fan of what I feel is quite an odd looking loco. I have two models of this class, which have different liveries, but both of which carry No.3125, which is because I feel the first is a particularly poor RTR model by OO Works - perhaps their worst production: Then we have the more recent and much better model by Hornby: Finally, within the main range of operational locomotives is class 700, Drummond's "black motors"; No.325 and No.694 are both RTR models in different liveries by OO Works: Duplicate numbered No.325 is the recent Hornby model - and I must get around to re-numbering one of the two of them!; Finally in this category is the unique ex-SECR crane tank, No.1302, sometimes referred to as being of the "1302 class"; this model is from a kit by SE Finecast: With that we have finally completed the main operational SR fleet as at nationalisation, however, there are some miscellaneous and departmental locos remaining, including diesel and electric shunters and I will cover these in a further, final post on this topic very soon. Tony

Jonathan I certainly did notice those excellent vehicles, also the ferry-boat vehicles; I am a great admirer of your work and follower of your thread. I suppose I just felt that when set against LMS & GWR, SR was under-represented, but that may indeed be prototypical - I don't look at many pre-nationalisation LNER pictures! Best wishes Tony

I had the great privilege of visiting LB on Tuesday and assisted in the testing whilst taking some pictures; thank you Tony and Mo as ever for your faultless hospitality. Unfortunately not all of my photographic efforts were successful as I was trying to be too clever and use 'focus stacking', having managed this very successfully recently at Pendon under Andy York's excellent tutelage (see: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/122547-postcards-from-pendon/?p=3210797 et seq.). Nevertheless here is what I have: I just loved this coal train - the variety of wagons and the excellent weathering; if you click to get a larger picture you should find this image in focus from front to back - it is a composite of 17 exposures. Forgive my shoddy editing at the back where I was too lazy to go around each part of the exquisite lattice signal posts! As Tony knows, there is also a burnt out area just above the 2nd & 3rd wagons as the sun was impossibly bright. Here is a shot of No.4472 and train - I'd echo Tony's comment that the un-weathered loco with plastic coal and no crew just doesn't look right against it's superb train; this is a single shot and the difference in clarity towards the back end of the train is obvious: Again, I just loved this down freight for the variety of wagons and vans, and for the way in which each was beautifully weathered; this is a composite of 90 pictures but was still not enough to provide clarity at the back of the shot!: I left feeling that I had been most privileged to have a preview of what will I am certain be an amazing event. If I may say, however, I do feel Tony that you need to speak to the rolling stock providers about the very limited provision of Southern Railway vehicles! Some more vans and especially examples of the ubiquitous long wheelbase PMV's and CCT's would be most welcome - and appropriate! (Of course I speak as a Southern afficionado!). Tony

Looks like an excellent build Jack! Tony

Well spotted! No wonder it doesn't want to move Will fix it a.s.a.p. Thanks! Tony

Hi Andy As jcm@gwr has said, you may be lucky if the mixture is open to the air - there was lead / PVA mix in the side tanks of the Z class (which were open to the motor / chassis) and IF this had expanded - which is what it does - then it had done so in a harmless direction, without causing any damage. In the same way, if you have applied it to the underside of a coach body, without boxing it in, then you may well be OK. Now I know what the problem is, I realise that it had also happened on a sealed box van where I put the mixture inside it before fixing the roof on; later on the van split at the corners; see also: https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2737 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94097-roket-card-glue-does-it-react-with-lead-like-pva/ The main damage on the Z was from the mixture sealed inside the boiler which only had one small 'open' end inside the loco, so I think the enclosure is a good part of it, but I now use superglue as jcm@gwr suggests, whilst my loco builder Chris Phillips seals lead shot in place with araldite. Tony

And so on to V - Z - although that won't mean we have finished! Maunsell's Schools class (V) are just about my favourite locos of all - perhaps because of historic visits to the Bluebell Railway, and I am looking forward to seeing No.928 Stowe restored and running again in due course. I have, as they say, got "several" of these but because I consider the most recent Hornby RTR model to be so good, I do not have any kit-built versions; here are samples in each of three liveries - first No.907 Dulwich in olive: Then we have No.900 Eton in malachite: and lastly, No.936 Cranleigh in wartime black: Whilst I generally favour Maunsell olive, I feel that these locos look especially good in black; if you have a favourite "Schools" try me, and I just might have it! On to "W", and Maunsell's chunky big tanks of class W, represented by No.1915 from a SE Finecast kit: Then we have Mr Maunsell's 'spam cans', the West Country (WC) and because I missed them earlier, the Battle of Britain (BB) pacifics. The Hornby model seemed to me to be the first of a new era of improved RTR locos, although admittedly not in the class of the more recent Schools and Arthurs, but for this reason I again have no kit built examples. Representing the Battle of Britain locos is no.21C163 229 Squadron; I have actually started to weather this loco, although it doesn't really show, and it is certainly not finished: I have a number of BB / WC locos and aside from re-numbering, naming, coal and crew I have done little to them, so I suspect that some detailing would be of benefit alongside the intended weathering. For the West Country's we have No.21C109 Lyme Regis And finally, so far as the 'lettered' classes are concerned, we have another big tank in Maunsell's class Z, No.954 from a DMR kit, and I note that quite by chance, both of the big tanks represented today are in he earlier Maunsell goods lined black livery: Now there is a cautionary story surrounding this last loco; those of you with sharp eyes may have notices that there is something wrong around the front end of the boiler cladding on this model - I didn't notice it when I took the picture and nobody commented on it when I published it previously, however, it later became obvious that the brass tank had split / come undone underneath because when it was built many years ago, the dangers of mixing PVA glue with lead shot were not well known - certainly not to either myself or the loco builder. So a short while ago, this is what I discovered: and looking underneath: Despite having built the loco for me over 16 years ago, Chris Phillips immediately offered his help in reconstructing the loco and at his suggestion I left the body to soak in water for 24 hours; after two such sessions the PVA had softened sufficiently for it all to come out with a little encouragement, and without further damage to the body which is now back with Chris for repair. So it looks like it will all end well - but if you didn't already know, be warned - do not use PVA glues to hold your lead shot in place! So to conclude this post, I have re-posted the "missing locos" list, and in my next couple of posts I shall cover those classes that are numbered rather than lettered, plus a few sundry works locos, diesel and electric shunters etc. The "missing" list: SECR Wainwright B1 (16) LB&SCR Billinton B4X (12) LB&SCR Marsh C3 (8) LSWR Drummond C14 (3) - potential solution = CSP / Agenoria kit announced years ago but yet to be delivered LB&SCR Marsh D3X (1) - potential solution through indication of a forthcoming 3D printed body, chassis to be sourced LB&SCR Billinton E4X (4) LB&SCR Billinton E5X (4) - 3D printed body + SEF chassis kit held for assembly LB&SCR Billinton E6X (2) - 3D printed body + SEF chassis kit held for assembly SECR Wainwright F1 (9) - solution = Jidenco kit held but not yet in build SR Maunsell I1X (18) LSWR Drummond L12 (20) - solved, 3D printed, etched & cast by Arun Sharma, now in build on Hornby RTR chassis SECR Kirtey R (18) - solved, build in hand from SE Finecast R1 kit LSWR Drummond S11 (10) - potential solution to use cast L12 parts and modified SE Finecast T9 chassis Tony

Hi Dave Had the top off and to my surprise it has a Mashima motor - not sure what the gearbox is but looks pretty OK. In fact the build doesn't look too bad under here, it's just that the finish is not pretty and it doesn't work! I'll take you at your word if I may, and box it up and send it to you for review and potential surgery! Best wishes Tony