imt

..................

 

The loco spur allows "Minories" style operation of the passenger platforms: full-length trains where the hauling loco can't escape and a pilot loco is used to remove empty carriages and free up the original loco for other duties.

 

The two baseboards are 1400*500mm each with an imagined fiddle yard perpendicular to the north east side. Min radius 610mm (2ft).

 

I think this design has a good flow and a realistic linearity to it.

 

Bristol Park St sketch 3.png

(Click to enlarge)

I really like that!  Are they really Streamline curved points?  Wow!  Never seen them used so effectively before!

That is so good it hurts.  S...t, I wish I had seen that 2 years ago when I was designing my layout!

Erm... R1s don't really work unless it's for show. I.e. not operational.

Excuse me?  Where are these R1s?  The layout is all R2 or larger and as for not working try watching the video.

To be blunt - what is it?  Why are there 2 sets of tiddly sidings at the top?  Do you need the crossover at the bottom?  Why the kickback? This is using points and rail without thinking "why"?

The point several people are making is that you could have station one end and fiddle yard the other on a 1' or 18" plank.  There are lots of designs for such a thing.  Look at the Minories threads, three carriage trains in 10ft should be achievable..  RJS's post is about using one form of fiddle yard which you could put at one end of the plank or another with the station at the other end.

As I tried to point out - if you have 4ft width you can pull forward an 18"/2ft plank and have room to operate it from behind, that way you can have a station to the left, some sidings at the front to the right and a fiddle yard behind them.  Try looking at the Bradfield Gloucester Square layout for the idea (search on this site).

And if you want a roundy roundy there are plenty of ideas and you could do worse than look at thread about an 8' by 4' family layout.

.......

 

Back to a mimic panel for a layout, they are much easier to operate than a screen based system given that a simple glance can show you everything and they are tactile - something screens try to emulate, but cannot recreate. Another reason for building one is because I can, it involves a challenge and AIDS the learning process - I have learned a huge amount from this thread and hopefully some others have also.

 

The main reason however is that when simply having fun (and that is what we are meant to be doing) it is simpler to turn a dial and push a button, especially for young fingers when kids want to play

Oh so true.  I agree, mimic panels give you a much better haptic (tactile) feedback than these awful glass touchscreens.  Half the time I touch and it doesn't do anything.  Press a real button or turn a switch and you KNOW something has been done.  My computing colleagues think I'm mad.

A TMD is certainly a matter of choice.  A friend has something similar, and I have seen many of them.  Loco comes in, maybe gets fuelled and then stands waiting its turn.  Loco comes out of shop fuels up and waits to go out on line on test. First loco moves out.  A loco which has failed is towed in. etc.  For my money absolutely boring.  My friend really gets his kicks out of detailing inside and outside of shops, sheds etc. fitting lights and so on.  Not much operation there to my mind.  But each to his own.

If that's what you like there are plenty examples in threads on this site and in every modelling magazine.  They are without exception beautiful examples of the modellers art.  I prefer operations to timetables rakes of coaches, freight trains to move about and shunt.  Each to his own.

You need to decide what you want!  Once we know we might be able to help further ...............

.................

this looks like the job http://www.thortrains.net/4holayg.html

If that is what you want go for it.  My question is what is it, what is its function, why is it there, where does input come from where does it go to.  As you have probably guessed i like my railways to serve a purpose, and if it's purposeless why do you shunt that wagon there and not somewhere else.  If you can identify industries etc. you can give yourself reasons for moving things about.  You need to have some idea of source and destination for some form of timetable or movements schedule - but maybe that's not your thing?

I would honestly suggest you keep clear of huge amounts of track - unless that's what YOU want.  This is your railway after all.

10 ft by 2ft is a good space - lots of people would give their eye teeth for such space.  You could get a Minories into that (look at the Minories thread). Look at http://www.carendt.com/ for small layouts.

If you can halve that "table" (not if it is a dining table I suppose) and put wheels on it so you could pull it forward, you could operate it from the back.  If you could have another board which you could move at right angles to the main board doring operating times you could have an "L" shape with a "fiddle yard" as Harlequin suggests.  What do you mean by table - do you have to use it?  If it is solid you'll have a problem putting wires through it to power points and signals - though I suppose that depends on what you want.  Most of us have baseboards which are easy to move and have thinner tops for holes for wires etc.

You need some more thoughts on your actual layout baseboard type size, location and configuration.

Sorry, but you cannot hope to reach over 4 ft and have buildings and scenery items, you will keep knocking things down or damaging roofs etc as you try to reach over.  It is usually said that one should limit these things to 2 ft.  The other way is to have a dog bone (or a spiral?) which gives you a circle at both ends and (minimum 3ft probably) with a narrow bit in the middle.  That would mean only 4ft for a station?.  You might need a head and hand hole in the end circles for when the stock comes off the track (and it WILL!).

Does it have to be roundy-roundy?  The type of track is immaterial - I would keep what you have and use it unless there are spare funds around (unlikely after moving?). If you WANT to change the track the possibilities are discussed elsewhere on this forum.

I think we need to know the free area (including operating space) .  Some form of diagram would help.

You may be able to have a short but full station in the space you have - depends where you can operate it from.  The "Piano Line" has been an inspiration for many - see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/24517-time-to-tune-the-piano/ post#9.  In essence the greatly admired Bradfield Gloucester Square  was a much bigger version of this idea with a swinging traverser in the fiddle yard to allow the storage of trains behind the backscene see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/

Bradfield was 15 feet long I believe

No reason why this couldn't be adapted for any kind of traffic.  10ft could still do 4 coach mail trains or similar? A 47+ 4 MK1s is about 4'4" long in old money.

I haven't heard about this "Digital Crispin" before (I don't think so anyway).  Is Cleklewyke around on this forum or can anybody give a reference so I can look at it please?

[Edit] Aaargh! now who feels a twit - it's Peter Denny's "Digital Crispin" for when his son was otherwise engaged!  Is there a proper description?  I have the book , but it isn't explicit.

I do hope I haven't clumsily traipsed over this thread.  My intention was merely to show that there were other methods of control without trying to simulate the issue of tokens - which I thought about and discarded. Since most often there is only me operating the layout I also looked for a way to do away with bells - since I would feel a little foolish signalling to myself.  The idea of using a computer so that you felt you were in the middle of a "proper" railway system had escaped me - but then I only have an end to end system with 2 control points (block posts).  The ideas are interesting and worthy of more discussion - please ignore my ignorant interruption and continue ..................... sorry.

This may be of absolutely no interest, but I went one stage further and imitated a form of Tokenless Block.  But then I only have a station and a fiddle yard.  The main line is single (of course) and entry is controlled by signals interlocked with the (button and light simulation of) Tokenless Block instruments.  Signals are replaced by passing an IRDOT, so it all looks the thing - though no real railwayman would recognise it!  A photo of the layout diagram is attached.  Since there are only 2 block posts the whole thing is consolidated into one panel which sits between them for join operating when there are two or more operators.  If there were more block posts then there could be more control boards and the Tokenless Block lights would then be repeated on them.  The panel is single button route setting (just in case you wondered?)

I have used 3 DCR-8Pin direct decoders and found them OK. They can be a tight fit in some installations, check the dimensions. I have also noticed that in some posts here that they work where some of the more expensive have a problem??? As you said Good value.

Ditto BUT they are off set - i.e. bigger to one side than the other.  One would NOT fit into a Bachmann Class 20 - had to use a Zen Nano - or a Bachmann 108 - had to use a Zen 218 (but then I think only a plug and loom would fit in the space available). So whilst satisfactory they won't necessarily fit everywhere.

Hi Phil

 

Loco lifts are fine. I was finding getting locos off the end of trains at the far end of the traverser was awkward, that is when I experimented with them.  As none of my locos are Pacifics I shortened mine and they still work fine.

I had thought of having some shorter ones - do you cut in the middle?  I find the "railer" ends very useful to get locos properly loaded (push on) from the storage roads.

As an aside I loved Sheffield Exchange and I'm dead jealous!  Hope you get things back together again soon.  I have seen your big new one in your thread.  I must say I prefer smaller - but I expect that's 'cos I don't have room.

I haven't had any personal experience of loco lifts but I was a bit suspicious of their quality and reliability and I wanted to not be moving expensive locos around too much or too far. ...

 

PhilM

A couple of photos attached to show how robust they are done "my" way (this is somebody else's idea of course - but I cannot remember whose or where I saw it).  This arrangement is foolproof and means no touching of locos after they are loaded up.  I have a lot of these things and load my locos with a duty number attached so I know what goes where for my WTT.

I have a convention that everything drives in forwards an out in reverse - since everything is late 60's Scottish diesels - hence the arrow showing "forward".

"The cassettes and the hidden spur allow locos to be turned and coupled to the front of a different set of rolling stock without appearing on the scenic part of the layout like this:

• Train runs out of station on the Up line to any traverser line (T1-T6).
• Loco runs onto the cassette at the end of the traverser and uncouples.
• The operator moves the cassette (turning it around if required) to a clear traverser line.
• The operator connects the traverser to the hidden spur and drives the loco across the traverser onto the hidden spur. (Remember to keep the warehouse doors closed so that the loco can't be seen from the station!)
• The operator connects the traverser line containing the desired rolling stock to the hidden spur and reverses the loco to couple up with it.
• The operator slides that traverser line across to connect with the Down line and the new train is ready to depart.

That way a loco can run around rolling stock on any of the lines T2-T6 but unfortunately not on T1 because that line can't be connected to the hidden spur. It would be possible if the traverser only had 5 lines but I think it's best to have as much storage as possible. There are lots of way to work around this problem, including manually repositioning the loco but the most interesting is this:

In the dead of night, when no-one's watching, open the warehouse doors and drive the loco from the hidden spur, through the goods yard onto the headshunt and back up the running lines to either Up or Down connected to T1. :-)"

PhilM"

(somehow cutting down this quote made posting underneath as usual impossible)

Phil,  maybe I have misunderstood something or missed something in other posts.  I am in a similar position but I have 4 fixed roads not a traverser (beyond my skill set).  What I do is use Peco LocoLifts - they are 29.5  cm long and sit ON the track.  I have cut approx 4mm thick and 40mm wide strip wood to replace the silly floppy sides supplied by Peco, it's a force fit in and this makes a good solid construction.  In my usage loco runs on to the lift at the left hand (in your case) end of the siding, it is uncoupled and the whole lift moved either off the fiddle yard or to the head (the right hand in your case) of this or another train (turning if required).  In this way the loco does not need to move, the fiddle yard operator moves it to where it is needed.  The stock can easily run through the loco lift when it is at the head of a train, it just pushes down on the rails, and then it can be moved to the far end of the next appropriate incoming line.  You need a few loco lifts of course.  You can have a whole set of them arranged on a single siding if you are using DCC, just lifting them around as needed.  In this way I manage to run quite an intensive service.  This also means you can use your goods warehouse as a source and destination for goods to break up and make up trains - the stock is propelled in and disappears onto a traverser road to be brought out again later.

Of course, you won't have done a proper test until you've taken the loco to bits again, carved it about, tried to fit a new body, and then put it all back together again.........

 

DT

Thanks so much for the suggestion, but I don't think I'll bother!

Thank you everybody for your help and encouragement.  There is a happy ending after all (apart from DCC Concepts generously replacing the damaged chip).

Having had this experience I am very wary now of what I do and how I do it.  

I have now re-fitted the Lima 37 chassis with a Zen 360 Direct and its stay alive.and it works very well just as the original one did. This one came from another source as decoders seem to be becoming scarce - or at least DCC Concepts ones are.

I was scrupulous about keeping the chassis on the bench, wearing a static lead and insulating EVERYTHING.  I could probably have covered the full size one with all the electricians' tape and Kapton I used (I exaggerate of course, but only a little!).  The weight is well stuck down and all the wires tucked away and stuck down, except for the orange and grey ones attached to the motor bogie which requires freedom of movement.  Only when I was sure that eveything was well insulated and stuck did it get anywhere near my programming track, which was pre-set into program mode.

The result is that the Zen provides a very controllable model with a response which is far better than I expected given that it is only an old pancake motor (and I am aware of the slagging off they receive!).  Now I hope it has a long and useful life ahead of it.

Having used a sprog (II v 2.7) + JMRI/Decoder Pro for some years with a variety of computers, Win XP/7 and Mac I would say that it is I feel the best and safest route while also being very flexible and quite easy to use. Well worth the investment IMHO.

 

I remain skeptical of the NCE programming mode. The problem seems to be the different ways the NMRA recommendations are being interperated. Yes there is nothing wrong with have full voltage track power, the issue being to my mind that while this is delivered at a lower amperage it is not momentary as per the NMRA specs of 100ms, but continuous. 250ma at any continuous voltage between 7-22v is more than enough to run many motors at quite a speed, and to my mind capable of frying electronic circuits when flowing the wrong way due to a short etc.

 

Just my take on it, not being a NCE user.

 

Izzy

Thanks for the ideas.  I will I think put a Sprog in some form or other on my Christmas list.  I must think what I really need as opposed to the all singing all dancing possibilities!

Your views on The PowerCab are interesting.  I am about to try to refit a decoder into my Lima chassis and program it - I'll bear your views in mind.

How about a raspberry pi and a sprog - you can even get a sprog shield ( http://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk/pisprog.shtml ) . find a cheap hdmi TV on ebay and your almost there. The Pi3 even has built in wifi.

 

Sprogs are great. its so easy to use and i can take it anywhere with me - so when i program my dcc interfaces ( www.dccinterface.com ) i can take a small strip of track and a sprog and my laptop and test them anywhere.

Thanks for the link.  SPROGs seem to have moved on a lot since I last looked - the Pi-SPROG system seems to be a complete replacement for the PowerCab (if you are not frightened of Linux or computers) with the addition of JMRI if you are in to all that complication.

Don't forget that the 08 had a maximum speed of about 18mph - scaled down, that is about 4" per second in 1:76 scale - less than the length of the loco.

Wow that threw me. I don't know why I doubted you but I went and checked it for myself. This is way off topic but it's the reason I like DCC sound - it makes you drive to the sound. Nothing is more disappointing at exhibitions than to see locos whizzing about and stopping abruptly. I'm not sure what to set the CVs at to get this performance but I'll redouble efforts.

I've got a Bachie 08 which I feel needs to run a little  faster.  I have a Powercab controller and when I tried to adjust CV5, the max voltage Cv, I was told it could not read the value.

 

  I can read and adjust others, like CV3 &CV4.

 

So why does it  only read certain CV's ?

 

Secondly, I've read about "yard" running  but I can't find the bit in the manual to check if indeed it is on yard running!

 

Am I missing something obvious ?

You might have seen the other threads on programming track and a fried chip in which I have been involved.  I too use an NCE PowerCab.  I think you will find that Yard Mode is for PowerPro only.

I have to say that in program track mode (not program on main - the fourth option on the Prog/Esc key) I have been able to read CVs 2,5 and 6 as well as change them.

I have no experience of using stay-alives, but is there any chance it was no.4? That removing the chip with the stay-alive connected - if it had a charge in it perhaps? - could have caused a short that fried the decoder. What, if any, tool did you use to ease the chip from the socket, I find I need to use something, the NEM 652 8-pin being quite tight when fully inserted unlike the Nem 651 6-pin type. If it was metal?  It's just a thought looking at the list.

 

Izzy

That's some good thoughts.  DCC Concepts say the stay alive shouldn't have caused problems, but I did nothing to discharge it before I took the chip out so maybe that's it. I have a chip remover which is plastic (kind of tongs), but it takes some fiddling about.  As you say they are quite a tight fit.  Maybe I bridged something - but that would mean I needed power about, as you say maybe the stay alive.

I am going to have to be so careful next time!

......

However my Power Cab did report a short circuit on its display - it just didn't seemed to do any thing about it.

 

Regards

 

Nick

I don't thing it can actually do anything about it of itself.  I think it relies on you to remove the loco or whatever.  The PowerCab when in normal mode simply cycles round resetting itself - and will presumably eventually fry.  Mine did get warm as I sought the short on one occasion.  In program track mode it is also up to you - but it does tell you and it doesn't get hot about it.

......

 

Incidentally, Sod's law always ensures that if you have a loco that runs well but then carry out some alteration to it, however unconnected that may be to the mechanism, the loco will never run as well when you eventually put it back on the track as it did beforehand. (possibly this applies more to kit built locos rather than RTR ones)

 

DT

Darn!  There you are I KNEW I had forgotten something simple.  Thanks Torper - at least you made me laugh!

Yeah - I will certainly be careful as to how I handle the replacement chip.  Write down what you are going to do, read it through, check with a friend, do it under controlled conditions.

The word is back from DCC Concepts (and it's not good!):

1. ​I installed an 8 pin DCC socket with harness into an old Lima chassis and tested that everything worked on DC with a blanking plate.
2. I put a generic DCC chip in and everything worked
3. I put in a DCC Concepts Zen 360 8 pin direct chip and it worked well, better with adding a DCC-C stay alive and then changing CVs 2,6,5.  Impressive slow crawl and good speed response.
4. Removed the chip with stay alive attched so as to be able to cut off and replace the old tension lock couplings with NEM pockets (I use Kadees).  There was a lot of cutting and sticking but no metal was involved - all plastic.  I also eased the chassis to accept a Hornby body.
5. Replaced Zen chip with it's stay alive still attached, and it wouldn't work again.
6. Inserted generic chip and it worked.

What could I have done before 5 that could have caused the problem and then between 5 and 6 reversed it?

By the way the loco still runs on the generic chip - but not as well (as I would expect without a stay alive and no CV changing)