imt

I'm one of the "don't stick it downs" too.  You say there is a box full of "spare" track too. If you want a sort of central "starter for ten" why not stick only some of it down (say the loco shed and turntable with a loop of track and a passing place) but make sure there is an outer ring with exit/entry points so he can play with the board easily - but be encouraged to spread his wings and design some more of his own?  Tacky Wax is good but it won't hold against a child pulling.

I think there is the danger that you are having the layout design the room where in my opinion the home office should be designing the room.

 

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In may well be once you decide on your ideal work environment that you compromise on the type of layout you have, or perhaps as suggested make the layout high enough so that it goes overtop of your work environment.

 

I think that is what I was trying to suggest in a roundabout way.  I am trying to get in touch with my friend as I am sure he has or could take some photos - sadly I don't have any to hand..  The railway runs round the room - one side dedicated to a station the other side to his office (computer, printer, filing cabinet).  Most of the track is on shelves and only double track wide.  There is the usual drawbridge over the door. Corners are a bit of a problem, but units and chests seem to sit under it all OK. If I remember aright its a waist height and he only has 2 drawer filing cabinets that fit under.  The line is only filled out/scenic-ed at one side, the rest is threaded through and over the other furniture - including a work bench. He even runs a few trains while thinking (at least that's what he says!).

Another wheeze is using one shelf of a bookcase for some through lines - you could have a 4 line fiddle yard hidden away like that - obviously as you have to cut "tunnels" into the bookcase its best if its an Ikea "Billy" or similar.  A friend of mine has 2 tall double "Billy's" side by side - gives him about 60" by 10.5" of 4 track fiddle yard (longest sidings are loco+4 carriages if I remember right).  Glass door light oak - looks quite good, stores the stock under cover and gives 5 shelves of books/ledgers/boxfiles etc.  You need to set the layout height to meet the shelves of course!

I usually get into trouble for getting this wrong!

 

The "correct" centre-to-centre distance is 45mm. The problem is that if you have curves of less than about 4' radius this will not be enough to stop 64' coaches (e.g. BR Mk1) from hitting each other.

 

So, for instance, Peco Streamline gives a 50mm centring which should allow you curves (preferably hidden) down to about 2' radius. Longer coaches such as BR Mk3 may give you a problem at 2' radius.

 

It's 6 ft between tracks, and 11ft centre to centre in 12" to foot scale.  But of course that's just theory.  There are a thousand and one reasons why 44mm will be too small centre to centre, some of which Mr. Pestell has noted. You will never get 12" to foot fingers in between lines in a fiddle yard unless its 55mm or more for example - mine are 65mm apart to get LocoLifts in easily!

Thanks Mark, should have mentioned it would only be a branch terminus with a DMU or an autocoach. I've used anyrail but I'm not so great with it. How do you download the coach sizes you mentioned?

Steve.

 

I don't know where that size came from.  My 00 101/108 are 19" over couplings and a 121 (Bubble car single unit) 10.5".  Mk1 coaches are also around 10.5" over couplings.  If you need more just ask - somebody will know.

 

Have you looked at http://www.carendt.com/ for some small layout ideas - the earlier years are better than the recent stuff.

I think everybody here would applaud you taking up the hobby again.  Most of us have been through similar rushes of blood to the head.  I know I wanted to build something huge to make up for all the missed years.  I am so glad I listened to all those who warned me off.  I didn't understand about radius of curves or the idea of transitions between curves and straights.  I didn't have a clue about the electronics needed to control things - 'cos a sure as God made little fishes you won't manage this without LOTs of electronics (see 

for some of the essentials).  Note that MOST (if not all?) large layouts like this are built by teams of like minded people - often selected for their range of skills.  Laying the track alone will take many months - wiring many weeks more.  This is a long term project which could easily fail - not because of lack of money but sheer exhaustion with little to show for the effort. Money may not be a problem - but ROCI will be!

 

Rule 1 applies - it's your railway do it your way.  Personally I think you will regret this for all the reasons given so far and many.many more you will fall over as you go along.

 

If the sheds too big put a settee in it and an exercise bike!

Please refer to the signal diagram below

 

Signals 01.jpg

 

 

The diagram was taken from J Swift Collection BR Layout Plans of the 1950s published by the Signalling Record Society and will be removed if it infringes copyright.

 

Thanks to you signal specialists in advance of your input.

 

Copyright is raised many times in these pages.  Try this for a simple statement https://www.gov.uk/using-somebody-elses-intellectual-property/copyright especially the last part on "Permitted Use".

 

I doubt whether you meet any of the criteria - since you have "published" the item in a public place not just taken a copy for your private use (say using a library photocopier when doing research).  However what you are doing is probably "research" in its widest sense and certainly for the purposes of education (yourself and others) again in the broadest sense.  Even had you bought a book withg the diagram in it (or the SRS CD) you would still have been in the same position - you didn't buy the copyright - so you should not copy it. It's all about protecting the intellectual effort of the man who drew the diagram, wrote the book, painted the picture.  I'll not bother you with performance rights!

 

I doubt whether anyone would chase you in these circumstances but they could do so.

Delighted you are joining us, and I do hope you find it all great fun.  HOWEVER instant reaction (as from one who has gone through this phase) is that it's too big and far too complicated for your first layout since you last did any railway modelling when you were 13.  By all means get the shed built - man caves are definitely a good idea BUT for heavens sake get the feel of things first.  Have you actually got any stock?  That loco and 12 carriages will set you back about £500 at current prices - how many were you thinking of? Have you thought through how you intend to control a layout that big?  By the way - your through station platforms are about half the size of your terminal platforms?

 

Not sure if this is useful but if you haven't found this yet, it might spark some new ideas:

 

In one of the Minories threads I did a version of Minories that would work as a shelf layout (running lines entering near front of board so that traverser has max travel out from the wall) and that largely smoothed out the reverse curves. ......

 

 

I love Harlequins designs, and this one has raised another thought which might strike you as useful.  Forget ECS and use the traverser idea.  Just align the the top head shunt with line 6 on the traverser.  Using the traverser idea with Peco Loco Lifts to move locos from one end to the other would make it possible to have quite an intensive service.

 

As this stands, the idea won't work because the head shunt is too short.  I am sure there are ways round that provided you are happy with a traverser mechanism 5 feet long.

Looking at other comments I thought I ought to go and watch some of the Bradfield videos again.  This one shows ECS handling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLjYkFkbIZk. I don't know how "prototypical" this is - but it looks impressive and good fun to do.  I had assumed that there was (and I believe there is) enough space for the pilot to run round the ECS having drawn it out into the "Fish Dock" road by pushing back a bit, and then using the crossover on Platform 3 to run round so it could then do a pull into the Branch Siding and a propel into the appropriate Platform.  The process used in the video seems more "efficient".  This process would work fine with your throat, the train loco either waiting in Platform 3 or in the loco lay by before collecting stock that the pilot has pulled out into a head shunt.  However, unlike Bradfield, without the extra parallel Branch Siding with access to all platforms, you would have to pull out and propel back from the main out line, hence blocking all movements.

 

As you have said this needs platforms/ECS sidings to be 5 carriages + main line loco long.  Hence the 12ft overall needed for platform+throat+CS.  I can only have 4 carriage sets (plus an occasional short BG) on my 00 layout (completely dissimilar!).

 

A fascinating subject area and thanks for raising it again.

I understood (?!) that layouts like Minories worked one of two ways.

 

1) train runs in to Platform 2 (the designated arrival line) and loco decouples.  Replacement loco from siding pulls out stock onto "out" main line and then propels back into Platform 1 and then departs after taking on passengers.  These were likely "tank only" services where the loco from incoming would go for water to the to the loco siding and then do the honours for the next train. All in to Platform 2 and out from Platform 1.  Note shunting (as per Bradfield) would be to the outgoing main line and NOT to the incoming line.

 

2) trains run in to either platform, new loco arrives LE and attaches to draw out.  No need for pilot.  Though of course previous loco (if it was a tank) could simmer in the sidings.  Tender locos have to rattle off LE to the nearest turntable (unless you want grumbling  and black faced drivers on long distance trains?)

 

If you want carriage siding(s) they really ought to be parallel and alongside the main station so the pilot can draw out from the platform and propel into the CS.  Else it becomes trapped as it can propel into the head shunt but is left to draw back into the siding and is trapped since there is nowhere to run round?? Hence carriage sidings usually off scene in areas where land is cheaper and there is space for run rounds etc.

 

Your throat diagram is a little over egged (?) for either way of working since the slips only need to be singles, the upper in favour of P1 to out main and the lower in favour of in to P2/3.  The other routes have alternatives.  Your design allows arrival to 2/3 whilst departure from 1 and departure from 1/2 with arrival to 3.  Unless you want parallel moves (fun if you can control them) the the upper slip could be a single LH point and the extra point at the end of P2 deleted - but keep the lower double slip to provide access all areas.

I've never liked the complex curves in the Minories plan, and even less that the straight leg of the main line leads into a dead end loco bay...

 

far better was this later version by CJF for the same footprint, but much more realistic.

 

CJF CF.JPG

 

Well I like it (a lot) - but it isn't the same footprint.  Minories was 7 ft or so - this is over 10 ft (unless I am mistaken).  The advantage of Minories is that you can curve the exit by swapping points about a bit and have a curve into a fiddle yard (I am desperately tryiong to find my plan for that!).  This is a straight in and out - nothing wrong with that of course.

Expand  tram system in Bergamo and see a superb tram layout with a circular track through the grass at the back!

 

Glorious overkill for a tramway (technically a "light railway so they say) with a single line and 12 stations!  But this is Italy of course - say no more.

Please excuse my ignorance, and its a bit off topic but since the photos are here ...........

 

With a co-located disc as shown in post #26 above, how do the signals operate.  Modern signalling has sort of co-located PLS under the main signal, but that's easy to understand as the PLS does not have a "stop" aspect to display.  Here there are to my simple mind 2 stop signals - on on the ground and one up above.  Does the co-located disc have to be moved to "off" when the main stop arm is lowered?  I have probably mixed terminology but I think the experts might be able to understand me.

Hey guys,

 

things are progressing quite well with this layout, however the sector plate bit that moves keeps sticking up at one end. (As you can see in the previous post).

 

Does anyone have any ideas on how I can keep that held down at all?

 

The "tried and tested" way for sector plates and traversers is to fit "bolts" - some people make their own in various ways others buy brass ones from a hardware store - you need one bolt but several "keepers" (one for each line you wish to align to).  The approach was also used as a way to provide power to the sector plate/traverser, not essential for a sector plate as you can apply power at the rotating point.

With an absence of Christmas spirit I suppose and with great respect, and some trepidation, might I say I think I should be impressed but sadly I am not.  If I had even the vaguest idea of what you were doing and why, I might be able to see some relevance.  At the moment it is a load of (no doubt excellent) DIY electronics strung together for some unknown and unfathomable purpose which I cannot buy, see or touch even if I wanted/needed some of it.

Well it might be Christmas, or it might just be that there is no information to go on. Like no dimensions no indication of stations/freight facilities or whatever.  Both outer loops are marked to run the same way, the inner loop is marked as both ways.  Thus it apparently breaks a few rules to start with.  Trains drive on the left - so there is an unusual facing crossover middle right (but those lines are marked as same direction?). The bit marked "helix", is that out and back on the 2 lines shown (In which case left out right back would be usual) or a separate return on the two things that look like buffer stops middle centre?  Is the crossed line in the middle a crossing on the flat or a bridge?

 

Sorry but even the amateurs cannot help without a better diagram and some description of what goes where and direction of running etc.

I wonder if I'm clear to reproduce some of the photos from this book, there are many of the station from the era we are discussing - platform, station, carriage sidings, goods area, etc.

Regrettably not without the permission of the Copyright holder,  whom I guess isn't you.  You could ask I suppose but it is unlikely.  I doubt if they would regard this as "fair use" or "research" as defined in the 1968 Copyright Designs and Patents Act.

....

Try here for symbols (its a bit old, but its still fairly right): http://rdt.ergotools.co.uk/Content/Documents/signalscheme-legend.pdf 

 

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The link doesn't work (for me anyway) but you can get there using http://rdt.ergotools.co.uk/Pages/UserGuide/SignallingCharts.aspx and clicking on the link there.

Stupid question: Anyrail's not available on Mac. Are there any recommended web-based layout design apps? S

 

Recommended?  There is "Traxeditor" which has an old web page http://www.traxeditor.com and a newer "Beta test" site http://beta.traxeditor.com/.  I am trying hard to make it work for me and having considerable problems,  Maybe a learning curve, maybe it's rubbish - I don't know which yet!

Woohoo! I have a layout design in this month's Railway Modeller!

 

They have't used the final revision I sent them, though, in which I corrected some problems and added some details. And some elements seem to have very heavy line widths...

 

Ho Hum. I think I need to check it thoroughly.

 

Congratulations.  The rest is pretty much par for dealing with the press - they mix things up, get things in the wrong order, print the wrong revision etc.  I don't know how you avoid it.  Anyway your designs are excellent and inspirational.  Who knows you might get the job of doing all their layout plans - they need someone to improve them!

Just to set the record straight, I'm a programmer (what they call a "developer" these days) and I'm one of the team that develops the "Xara Designer" range of products - the program that I use.

 

.....

 

Thanks Phil.  I have been inspired by your talent, but unable to replicate it.  I won't hijack your thread further.  I have just tried Trax and I don't think I'll be going further there.

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I love the quality of plans you produce this way.  But the thought of learning a CAD package which isn't optimised for railways, then working out how to use it for railways, only to use it for railways, makes me think I'll stick to XTrackCAD myself! 

 

He's a professional designer/artist and it shows!  I wish I could find something which will work through a browser page.  I am giving up on Windows after a lifetime using it professionally - becoming far too much of a hassle and rather expensive too.  I can get all I need on a Chromebook apart from a model railway design package!  So I am trying to make use of the design packages I can get hold of - with little progress.  Sadly they are not very intuitive for a ham-fisted CAD man.

So I have priced up the signals

 

Absolute aspects. £1150

Cr signals £560

 

Wow. Think I’ll be scouting EBay !!!

 

And sadly you have forgotten the additional (approximately) £20 per signal for the DCC decoder/control connections!  As I said a long time back on this thread - signalling (real life and in model form) is expensive which is why not every route that might be used is signalled.  The beautiful signal plan you have covers it all. Expensive though isn't it!  Which is why I used Traintech signals in the end and kissed goodbye to PLS and RIs on those that needed them.

Sounds like a garage or maybe a utility room.  So the answer is don't do it!  Sundeala was the product used by many - it isn't now.  Anywhere you may get wide temp/himidity variations it will crumble.  Plenty on how to build baseboards in other threads on this site.  Look there.