Ian Kirk

Hi, Good old Pete can always be relied on for good photos. If we are doing Thornton now the young ones among us will really see what they have missed. Thornton is now a couple of turnouts and a bus shelter (on the other side of the bridge behind "The Pirate" in the first photo).Pete had a 00 scratch built model of The Pirate and in his teenage years used this as his pen name ( Pete The Pirate)There was a lot for Pete to photograph at Thornton in the 50s/60s..The D30s had super names the next one is "Dumbiedykes". Good colour photo of coaching stock too. I can remember the crimson non-corridors. Even the real railway could make mistakes though. Take a close look at the buffer beam of " Glen Quoich" at Kinghorn. Glens were D34 but the buffer beam says D30 Thornton. I like the Virol advert on the side of the goods shed, pure 1950s. best wishes, Ian

Hi, When I had the factory unit in St. Monans (built on the station site) my office window looked out on the gable of the old stationmasters house. I found a photograph on the wall of a local pub which showed a train entering the station and from the angle of the gable I deduced that it had been taken from where my office was. After much haggling I bought the photograph to hang on the office wall. I don't know the photographer so am not sure about copyright but as it is A3 I can only scan half of it anyway. It shows an early DMU still with speed whiskers and the 2E code. Destination board is legible. Glasgow Queen Street. So whenever this was it would be going through Kirkcaldy soon after. Hope that justifies the rambling introduction! best wishes, Ian

Hi Neilgue/Keefer, IIRC in the 1960s this was the "Fife Forge" . There is or was a tall corrugated iron clad building on the opposite side of the complex from the building with the arches.This is what you saw from the train or the top deck of a bus (heading towards the town centre) as it turned the corner just before going under the railway. My memory is of a black painted building with Fife Forge in white. This was still rail connected in the early 60s. best wishes, Ian

Hi All, This photograph could be titled "first of the many". Further along the track towards Balgeddie from what became Muir's Yard was a riding stable. I helped out there in the early 60s (having discovered that there were a lot more girls than boys interested in horses)Pete sometimes cycled up to meet me as there was another track which led to a bridge over the River Ore and the back view of Thornton Shed. Amongst the trees where the scrapyards were to come were some old industrial or mining buildings. Taking a look there one day we came upon a blue painted locomotive just sitting on the ground.I was quite surprised to see a scrapped diesel, there were still 70 year old steam locos working on the main line,I still tended to think of any diesel as "modern image".We had a good climb over it. I was greatly taken with the starting handle. Within weeks the clearing filled up with old lorries etc. Perhaps though this was the purchase that gave Tam Muir the idea of collecting locomotives when the NCB and WPR ones became available. This first little loco was a 1941 Hunslet which had come from the Naval Ordnance depot at Crombie. Seasons Greetings to all followers of this thread. best wishes, Ian

Hi All, Some interesting links there Keefer. Also you are right about the access to the original Sinclairtown Station, IIRC there was at one time a ramshackle kiosk between the gateposts. (or an extention to the "temporary structure" looking shop). Slightly further up towards Scoonie Hobbies there was a close which led through to communal gardens/drying greens. In the late 50s this allowed a small boy to access a viewingpoint over traffic on the main lines about where the old station had been and the activities of the Sinclairtown pilot which on the days I can remember was a J69. I don't know why Tam Muir collected colliery pugs but assume he saw them as a good investment which could be easily kept until the price was right. Like a small, Fife Woodhams. Just as well he did as now most of the larger locos have been sold and restored. At least one of the small locos turned out to be a rare type (fletcher jennings?)and was saved. I presume too that he got them at a good price. In the late 60s you could buy a loco for not a huge sum of money. Unfortunately at that time few of us had any money! I was a member of the SRPS and we had had two locos put aside by BR staff in good sound working order. A Caley 0-4-4T and an NB N15 0-6-2T. The asking price was £650.00 each. two groups were formed along the lines of the old adversaries. I was (whilst a teen aged schoolboy) the secretary of the NB Group (a precursor of the NB Study Group). Dick Hollingsworth (Parkside)was the treasurer and I think Sandy McLean was the Chairman. Despite having persuded the then Earl of Elgin (the last surviving director of the NBR)to be Hon Patron we had only raised a few hundreds by crunch time for the locos being cut up. The Caley Group had a bit more than we did so rather than see both locos cut up we put the funds together and saved the 0-4-4T. If only..... best wishes, Ian

Hi, Some wonderfully evocative stuff coming up now. I particularly liked the NRM photo (taken presumably from half way up one of the lighting poles). 1955, notice how new some of the 16T minerals looked. The door you pointed out Andy did lead to Barry's Boardroom but also offices. My maternal Grandfather was Office manager after the war (He had worked in the West but their house was destroyed in the Clydebank Blitz. He evacuated his family to relatives in Fife and moved through when two of his children married Fifers). I remember going with my Grandmother (in foxfur and hat) to meet him there to allow him to take us for Afternoon Tea in the Carleton Tea Rooms. There were several Rail tours involving Glen Douglas and we probably always tried to photograph at least one part. The J37 photos were of a later tour, lessons learned. On another tour Glen Douglas worked the train into Leslie, managed to round the coaches OK but was unable to lift them out of the station and over the Leslie viaduct. Working tender first the sanders didn't help and she slipped terribly. As continuing this might have damaged the loco (or even the viaduct)they had to wait until a J38 was sent from Thornton to pull them back to Markinch. I have photos of one tour round the Coast headed by a J37. The Glen had worked the train to Thornton and took it off again later. Someone asked if Thornton should be included in the "Kirkcaldy" Area. If it is I think that we will find lots of material. I was already thinking how much of Kirkcaldy's railway had gone and what some of you young chaps have missed. In the late 50s /60s we thought that Thornton was like the centre of the universe. The station itself, Junction in both directions a triangle plus a branch, acres of sidings and loops, Balgonie Colliery,a wagon works, an MPD with an allocation of over 100 locos, a "new" colliery (which admittedly never really worked) and "modern" hump yard. Could not imagine the Railway working without it. Not much left now. best wishes, Ian

Hi Jeff, The last photo was from Rosebury Terrace bridge looking back towards the station. I think that without the smoke you would have been able to see Bennochy Bridge. The Hunslet is in the headshunt, the goods is in the down loop and the B1 is on the down main. On the other side of the bridge the cutting was four tracks wide. The photo of the blue Gresley brake was taken over the wall just down from Bennochy bridge and looks out over the down yard you can see Buchanan and Young's distinctive Coal depot which has appeared in other photos. Amazing how much has changed, now a car park and a row of trees (now quite big trees) and of course no factories. best wishes, Ian

Hi, It would be interesting to know what happened to Jim Bryants collection of film. I know that some of it was used on "Railways of Scotland Vol 11" video as was some of Pete's. The film of passenger trains at Kirkcaldy station was from JB and the film of the old car ferries. My parents attended West End Congregational Church all of their life and latterly Nettie Bryant was the Organist. My late Mother who gave me the video one Christmas was interested to see that Nettie was included in the film, getting onto a train (and probably quickly off again out of shot) and driving the car onto the ferry. No idea what the BTH actually did at Thornton although one can speculate that it would have been tried out on some of the turns that at that time were still in the hands of the J37s and J38s. best wishes, Ian

Hi All, Looking at some of the new releases announced at Warley. It would seem that the " green diesel" period is going to be pretty well coved for a 4mm KIrkcaldy based layout. Most of these would do for the "transition" period as well with some of the currently available steam classes but 0-6-0 goods locos would still be needed. Awkward types like me who would like to do the 50s will have a lot more to kit/scratch build. best wishes, Ian

Hi, Thanks again Lochty for another grand selection of photos. You are quite right about the embedded track. Just behind where the photographer was standing the line curves over Den Road and into Nairn's Works. IIRC Den Road was cobbled and the track was inset into them and the tracks inside the works were also embedded so that they could be shunted by tractor. The BR locos left/collected wagons in " Nairn's Sidings" but did not cross the road. For most of it's length Den Road is/was separated from the Railway by a substantial brick wall but there was of course a gap for the Nairns line. This was a good place to take photographs or just watch trains. Looking back over the photographs in this thread we should have a competition to see how often we can spot Pete's famous old bike.Anyone modelling Kirkcaldy in the 60s should include this, 70s onwards it was replaced IIRC by a Sunbeam Rapier. best wishes, Ian

Hi All, A couple of wonderful photos there, thanks Graham. Andy I would say that the last two coaches in the Rosebery terrace photo are Tourist Stock. You can just make out the ducket on one and the window spacings on the last coach would seem to indicate that they are both Brake Open Thirds with the Brake ends outermost. Tourist Stock consisted of Artic Twins (third/third) Buffet cars and Brake thirds. Each twelve coach set was made up of two six coach units. Brake, artic, buffet, artic. These would be coupled on the buckeyes so the easiest coach to "borrow" would be the Bk 3rds. I suggest that these were added to the regular train as strengthening coaches at a busy time.(very common until stock was "rationalised" in the 70s/80s). The rest of the train is non corridor stock. The first vehicle is a Gresley 51ft1.5" 3 compartment brake third. These were built for the Southern Scottish Area of the LNER (ironically one of the few Gresley coaches I have never made a kit for)next coach is a matching 8 comp third.Coach 3 I think is an NBR, 4 is a Gresley 51ft semi corridor composite 1st/3rd and 5 is another brake 3rd. I thought at first that the second photo showed the same set with only one strengthener on a different day but the NBR coach seems to have been replaced with another semi corridor compo. I don't know why a P2 would be used on this service which from the coaching stock would seem to be a secondary one. best wishes, Ian

Hi All, Graham said: Here's an interesting sketch of Kirkcaldy yard from January 1966, kindly provided by Robert Dey ... the top line was clipped from the scan and should read 'Buch & Clark' '16 End Doors'. Ian Kirk, now you know how many wagons you need for your model of Kirkcaldy yard I have always known how big a project it would be to do it right. Twenty odd feet long and something over five feet wide (not counting the line to the flour mill). Realistically I refer to the project as "Kirkcaldish". Andrew, I can not find the relevant volume of the RCTS LNER loco books so I don't know if that J69 was fitted. Shows how careful I should be of my memories, just because it was a J88 on the days that I can remember did not mean that it was always so. I was speaking to Pete and he says that he can recall seeing a J69 down the harbour on at least one occaision. He did not know if all of the pilots "slept" at Roseberry Terrace as the Station pilot when not actually working sat in the siding next the signal box . This I can also remember and when the Hunslets were introduced they were sometimes both parked there. Pete also said that the Station pilot (and possibly the Sinclairtown one) had to go to Roseberry Terrace for water etc. There was a water collumn and a tank. I was at Scotgog in Linlithgow at the weekend and was speaking to Sandy Gorski (another Kirkcaldy MRC member in the 60s and now President of the Gauge O Guild) who thinks that he has a photo of a J88 sitting over the ashpit. If he can find it he will send me a copy. I think that the Coal Merchant who had the house/office at Bennochy bridge was Buchanan & Young and that Clark's (Robert?) had a similar office in a cul de sac at the back of the old High School (now the Tech). They had a large scale (about 5in gauge) model coal wagon with the name on it in the window. I don't know if there ever was a prototype -did they have private owner wagons? or was it just advertising? best wishes, Ian

Hi, Lots more wonderful stuff! Like Andrew I can remember the "return loop" on the embankment and low bridge at the Randolph seen from the standing stane road. The sidings were only a glimpse in passing from a train. The Randolph was not really somewhere to watch trains from as there was no easy access. In the days before "right to roam" the colliery complex (out of bounds) and farmers fields sealed it off. There were a lot of good viewpoints in Kirkcaldy to watch trains from and I have memories of them all but lots of the rest of the railway was inaccessable to small (or even slightly larger)boys. Thanks for the trackplan of the Dubbie and signal box photos Graham. I don't know about the weighing machine, Pete might he was the one who spent most time there.I don't think a coal merchant worked from there but a lot of the population in Dysart were involved in mining and would get deliveries of "miners coal" this might have been distributed from there.Your Signalman's memories of the bay are similar to mine. Jinglin Geordie one Christmas and the West End Congregational Sunday School Trip to Aberdour did not constitute regular use. I think that they would have been put inside to allow other traffic to use the main line.It was the same with the green DMUs I can remember joining one in the bay just as a train of coal empties for Seafield rattled through and looking out for it when we passed Seafield shortly afterwards.My Father went straight from School into the RAF. After the war he tried a few jobs but really wanted to teach so he put himself through University with a wife and child to support.In the long holidays he did as much work as he could - Aux Air Force (for which he got his officers pay)all Summer and at Christmas he worked on the Post. Having found out that he had a good knowledge of Geography they used him at the station, putting mail onto trains. I was just old enough to take him the odd flask of tea (an excuse to watch the trains)this was when I watched the J88 collect a parcels van from the bay,round it, wait in the up yard and add it to the end of a train in the platform. This was probably only a once a day occurrence normally but perhaps more often in the pre Christmas rush. Andrew you mentioned speaking to a J69 driver (the furrin engine) if this was working as yard pilot when was this? between the J88s and the Hunslets? or was it an unusual loco filling in? When the J88s worked the yard and the Harbour it was usually a J69 at Sinclairtown do you know if all 3 locos stabled at the place off Rosebury Terrace bridge that you reminded us of in the Harbour posting? On page one of this posting Keefer posted links to aerial photos. The second one (bennochy bridge to the harbour) shows this area. Enlarged as much as I can there is what looks to me like a water tank on the embankment.You mentioned ashpits so it looks as if there was proper stabling/minimum servicing facilities there for the pilot locos. best wishes, Ian

Hi, Good old Pete! Can always be relied on for lots of good photos. His 8mm films have also been used in a few video presentations of this area. The photo of the Y9 is I think just outside Dunfermline Upper. 68101 was the Station Pilot there and was the only Y9 to have the vacuum brake fitted (and presumably the little wooden tender was piped. Which brings me back neatly to Kirkcaldy. The station pilot there in the 50s was a J88 which was not fitted. The Dunfermline Upper pilot would have more carriage sorting to do which is why I suppose that it was considered worthwhile doing it but I can remember seeing Kirkcaldy's J88 put a parcels van (LMS 6 wheel stove) on the rear of an Edinburgh train and at other times remove fitted vans from the end of through trains. I know that the brakes can be pinned back but I always thought that taking them on and off was quite time consuming. I wonder why Kirkcaldy Station did not rate a fitted pilot.Pre war I believe (I am not that old!)one of the GNofS 0-4-4 tanks was used here. Picturing some of these movements in my mind reminded me of something. No one has yet mentioned the "double stop". I do not know about loco hauled trains in diesel days but in the 50s/early60s some of the Pacific hauled Aberdeen trains were fairly long. The up platform, particularly when the entry to the bay was still there, was quite short. Trains pulled up with the loco at the starter and on occaision several coaches were not yet into the platform. I don't know what signalling was used but the loco then moved forward until this end portion was in the platform and stopped again. best wishes, Ian

Hi All, Yes a really interesting thread which has brought up lots of useful stuff about the signalling etc. Lots of bits of Kirkcaldy justify modelling but as one bit leads to another knowing where to stop could be a problem. Easier perhaps for the more modern period as a lot has been simplified or "just not there anymore". From the station at one end to the "dubby shunt" there were, in the 50s/60s a whole series of viewpoints each of which would be good to model. Two miles of changing industrial landscape plus the harbour.I have always wanted to model some of it. When Pete Westwater and I were teenagers, meeting up regularly to talk about layouts that realistically we would never build we measured the station up and descided that it would need about twenty feet in length (4mm)IIRC we then found that you could build the whole West end of Waverly in a smaller space. I now have the space and hope eventually to do something "Kirkcaldish" problem is have I enough lifetime left? I have started a small layout/test track around the walls of my office so that I can build up and test suitable stock so I will just have to see how I get on. Someone mentioned Nairns Power Station, yes it worked well into the 60s and as far as I know the coal was delivered by rail,perhaps right to the end. The Chief Engineer was Pete's Dad, a former ships Engineer.I think that the scale of the machinery would be similar. The links posted here have given me a lot more information to work on. I have downloaded part of a damaged print of a Railtour running through but it shows the ground signals for the bay .Also A J37 starting off from the other end of The Kirkcaldy system, the sidings at Dysart. Then off topic one of Thornton Junction, once so important that we could not imagine the Railway without it but now practically nothing. It shows a B1 putting it,s stock away after the last steam hauled service around the Coast Line. Andrew may recognise the photographer. best wishes, Ian

Hi Andrew, I think that there is a DMU in the bay in your photograph from the railtour. This was the norm by that time. I think that the timetables were changed with the introduction of the DMUs so that some local trains terminated at Kirkcaldy, crossed from down to up and waited in the bay until it was time to depart back to Edinburgh. When the locals were steam hauled they had to run on to Thornton for loco turning servicing etc. I have a feeling that some Sunday services terminated at Kirkcaldy in the 50s not sure what was done with the locos could they have used V1/3 tanks? Not so much memory fails me as the fact that we seldom if ever used the trains on a Sunday. best wishes, Ian

Hi All, Like Andrew Arnot I have lots of memories but very few photographs. I can remember the line down from the Auchtertool branch to the old drift mine. It was a Kirk family Summer Sunday walk to Kinghorn along the coast path, afternoon tea in, was it the Kingswood Tea Gardens? then back by bus.The bottom end of the line was a simple buffer stop. The track was used to store withdrawn wooden coal wagons (around 1955 I presume they were displaced by new 16T steel minerals)much of the Auchtertool line was used for this as well.A few years later when I could go along the coast path myself I remember daringly playing with the wagon brakes etc. There was a small brick building around the end of the (bricked up) drift mine. Someone had broken this down and I can remember shining a torch down the drift but not being brave enough to go in. Much later (1963) Pete Westwater and I visited the site of the just demolished Invertiel Junction box. The contents of which were just strewn down the embankment. WE recovered a lot of old paperwork, NB working timetables etc,and I think that some of it ended up with the SRPS. WE would have liked to rescue (pinch?) the name board but it was too heavy. We retrieved a lamp which had hung on the outside wall and took it back to the Railway Club to clean up. Not sure what happened to it. These things would be like gold now but the workmen had just thrown them away. Apart from the odd parcels van the bay was not used much in steam days. I can only remember two trains starting from there, both specials , one Sunday School Trip one pre Christmas Shoppers Special. This last I can remember quite clearly. My Father always planned things well ahead, a relic of his wartime RAF service. Going anywhere he had his ETA and was always on time. My parents were taking me to Edinburgh to see the toy displays (and Santas!) and were walking up to the station with plenty of time for the train when my Father saw smoke from the Edinburgh end of the Station, assuming we were late for the train they ran up through the War Memorial Gardens (presumably with me swinging between them)and arrived to find that we had plenty of time as it was the special in the bay. There was time to take me to see the Engine before we got on this train. Loco was "Jingling Geordie" with three crimson coaches. That makes this a "must have" on any layout of mine. The present station is the third as I believe that the first"modern" station burned down but have no idea of dates. I have scanned a couple of photos of the old E&N building and the goods yard about the same time. THese are not very good as they are starting to fade. They date from Pete Westwater and I developing our own films. I think that these are Petes' photos but I printed them so I am sure there should be no copyright problems. best wishes, Ian

Hi, Many thanks for putting these photos up. Good also to know that part of the old C&M is still around. To many modellers of my generation P D Hancock and the other regular contributors to the RM in the 50s/60s provided the inspiration that changed train sets to models. When I finally met him he gave a little embaressed smile when I suggested that he was a boyhood hero of mine. Phil was one of those people for whom the word "gentleman" was invented a great help and inspiration to many. best wishes, Ian

Hi Yan, Good to see someone making use of these after such a long time. But oh the modern camera and enlargement are not kind to the 1980s tooling! Looks like you will make fine models from them which will owe so much more to you as a modeller than to me. One error (there may be many more)which I can admit to now is the position of the end of the drop door hinge which is slightly too far forward. These are best cut off and positioned in line with whatever you intend to use as the door hinge.IIRC when I built mine (personal models not business) I used a length of styrene rod, wrapped one layer of very fine microstrip around that at the positions of the end straps to simulate where in real life these looped over the bar then wound several thicknesses at each end to build up a small disc. These were well "solvented" and when dry I filed the bottom of the discs flat. This assembly was then cemented in position. I use a similar method for my own RCH minerals. Good enough for me anyway but I can remember building wagons from card in the late 50s. best wishes, Ian

Hi, Ian, thanks for the comment on one of my former kits ( I sold the range about 20 years ago) if you say it it is a comment, if I say it it could be construed as advertising! Also the original enquiry seemed to refer to RTR. I was only thinking about the coaches until someone pointed out that suitable locos were only currently available as kits. Nice photo, I have a picture of the other end of a similar NE push pull brake composite showing the round porthole style driving windows. Also a clerestory roofed one with one of the BTH tanks that Katier mentioned but I did not put them up as think they are Copyright. All part of the material that was sent to me a long time ago while I was doing some work for the then owner of Nu Cast. He contemplated commisioning plastic kits for these from me to complement the loco kits in his range but he never took up my quote so these are kits that might have been...He went ahead with the Sentinel Railcar instead but in white metal. Alan, Fairly sure the panel dated from departmental use as can not think of anything else it could have been. I have no photos of this coach in use (photographers tended to concentrate on the C15 end) but photos of other conversions with the wiring still on show nothing like this. The St.Combs and Arrochar conversions were done at the same time and to the same diagram so I assume they were the same. All of these conversions of Gresley standards to push pull were "local" conversions and usually intended for specific services so much might have depended on the interpretation of the local carriage shop foreman. The Isinglass drawing will be based on one diagram as issued and probably does not take this into account. Latterly I believe that the St Combs and Arrocher sets were mixed as they ended up with two of each available for this service. best wishes, Ian

Hi All, If anyone wants to try a quick conversion on a Hornby Brake Third I have uploaded some photos of the real thing. These were in departmental service by this time as by the time I was old enough to have the camera and get the pass these services had been replaced by DMUs or railcars. The first photo shows the end windows of the 4 compartment driving trailer which had been on the well known and well photographed Craigendoran and Arrochar service on the bottom end of the West Highland. The pipework and control gear had been removed by this time. Second photo is of the same coach showing that the sides were not altered in this 1940 conversion. (but it had lost its Gresley bogies and aquired Fox type from a CCT plus a wagon type handbrake for its departmental role) Third photo is of another LNER brake third but converted by BR (1950?) showing the more extensive changes to the driving end. The drawing in Nick Caplings "Historic carriage Drawings" vol 1 LNER & Constituents shows the coaches converted for the Epping Ongar service in late LNER period These are somewhere in between and have small droplights in the sidepanels and two big windows in the end but not the central one of the BR. As well as the driving trailers the coaches that ran with them had also to be converted by having the control gear rub through. Two C15s were fitted with push pull gear for the Craigendoran and Arrochar but only one was needed at any one time. Coaches converted consisted of the 4 compartment brake third, the 6 compartment brake composite and a semi corridor lav. composite was piped through.The coaches could be varied according to the traffic. Most usual formation seems to have been lav.composite and 4 comp driving trailer. At least it was the few times I saw it. I have seen a photograph in a book of the loco, the brake composite then the brake third. I have yet to see one of the loco with only the brake composite but I assume that that was the purpose of that conversion, perhaps only used in such deep winter that no photographers were around. best wishes, Ian

Hi, There was no resemblance at all to the GWR ones. The first LNER push pull driving trailers were converted from pre- grouping coaches. There were some clerestory roofed ones on the ex NER area. In the 1930s these started to be replaced with converted Gresley 51ft Non corridor stock.Used in GER area, NER area and in Scotland The first conversions only involved cutting larger windows in the brake end and fitting the driving equipment. Otherwise the coach looked the same. The new Hornby 51ft brake 3rd would be a good starting point. Later conversions in the late 1940s had even larger windows in the end and droplight windows cut into the driving end panel of the coach sides.Livery was the same as the other coaching stock of the period. Steam Railcars were used over much of the LNER in the 1930/40s but were extinct by Nationalisation.These were cream/green. (same green as LNER locos) The only model I know of is the Nu Cast white metal kit of the Sentinel. I did pattern making for this kit in IIRC the late 1970s. I dont know if it is still available as the last owner of the Nu Cast range is retiring. best wishes, Ian