TerryD1471

I thought that I had better "put my money where my mouth was" so to speak, as the topic is about H/D or Wrenn Duchesses which are modified. This is a H/D City of London still with the H/D trailing truck in situ and later:- The same loco now in primer and with a replacement trailing truck courtesy of Comet. Points to note are (1) the tender has been replaced by a Ks white metal one, still awaiting the ladder over the back and some front footsteps. (2) The front of the firebox has been carved away as much as I dare to try and replicate the sloping throatplate (see the DJH model for comparison). (3) The skirt at the bottom of the boiler has been opened out using drills and files to make the boiler look round; there's still a bit to do there! (4) Cab windows have been opened out, (5) 26mm Romford wheels have been fitted; they JUST fit in beneath the magnets of the huge motor. The haulage capacity is tremendous; it hardly notices 15 kit-built coaches and this is partly due to the neodymium magnets with which it has been remagnetized. Another Duchess, a Wrenn one this time, which has had the same treatment, but which is towing a carved up H/D tender to represent more accurately a destreamlined (Type 1) tender. The valve gear has had some alterations to make the motion more realistic. The third one is also a H/D body shell carved up to represent 46257 City of Salford. Still awaiting plates and final paint touches, this one has a scratch brass chassis with 26 mm Romford drivers, a D13 motor driving through 40:1 gears and Comet valve gear and motion. Not quite as powerful as the H/D chassised ones, but the firebox can be shaped to represent the sloping throatplate more accurately, because I'm not trying to cope with the enormous motor of the original H/D design. I hope this illustrates the mods needed.

Hi Ian I'm glad you have had an answer to your question about soldering Mazak and that it is a no-no. To answer your question, yes, I have replaced the centre drivers, but I also replaced the others too, because, as you will note they are only about 22 mm diameter and seriously underscale. 26 mm (or even 27 mm) Romford/Markits wheels are desirable. If you have a good City of London, that is a good start point with a super powerful motor, but note that the front of the firebox is very lumpy (compare with the DJH loco) and needs cutting back with a set of files, dental burrs or any other way of removing metal. Secondly I would fret out the cast metal "skirt" at the base of the boiler to reveal daylight and create the illusion of a round boiler. Use tiny drills and files. Thirdly, the cab side windows could do with opening up using Swiss files. Check the DJH model to see how large they need to be. On to the DJH kit, it's good to see how much progress you've made so far. I hope you have not fixed the smokebox front in place, as this is usually one of the last jobs to do. The open front of the smokebox will allow you access to the inside of the boiler for securing handrail knobs (especially if like me you have sometimes used split pins). If you compare the DJH smokebox with the H/D one (which is quite accurate), you will see that it extends too far forwards, so any steps you can take to shorten it (like filing down the front and thinning down the smokebox door as much as possible) would be desirable. Secondly, the footplate ahead of the smokebox and around the inside cylinders is too short and could do with extending forward to gain the right proportions. I have used a length of 1.6 mm brass square to do this on 46256 and am planning to do so with my DJH models of 46238 and 46245. It doesn't solve the problem completely but it does help to make things better. I will follow up with pics to help with my words. ATB Terry

Hi gents I am intrigued, Iain, by your comments about the height of Comet's smoke deflectors compared to DJH's. So intrigued that I went and measured the heights of every different type I could lay my hands on. I have used Jackson Evans etched deflectors on a good many of my models (esp. Hornby Dublo body conversions) and the results are quite intriguing:- Original Wrenn & H/D 20 mm Tender drive Hornby 20 mm Recent Hornby 20 mm DJH 20 mm Jackson Evans 20 mm Crownline/ M&L 19.7 mm Scratch built (origin unknown) 20 mm I don't know what height the Comet ones are as I've never used them, but they look appreciably deeper than 20 mm. Could it be that everyone is out of step except for Comet? I ask because I'd like to know! Terry

Yes I concur with your thoughts Iain, and do wonder whether it is wise to try and "retro work" the Ivatt version back to the Stanier one, Ian, because of the differences Iain has outlined. The main difference between the "Type 3" tenders on 6253-5 and the "Type 4" behind the Ivatts is that the Type 3 has a high front cutout whereas the Type 4 has a lowfront cutout. And of course the roller bearing axleboxes. The DJH cab roof does need some fettling and the front footplate around the inside cylinders is too short. Combined with an overlong smokebox, the overall effect is to "bunch up" the frontal appearance although this can be improved. A H/D bodyshell is better proportioned, but of course the firebox is too bulky at the front end to accommodate the massive motor and this needs to be cut down and remodelled. ATB Terry

Hi Ian This is an area in which I have some experience, having built chassis for several Hornby Dublo bodies. The question that springs to mind is "Do you want to make use of the superb hauling power of the original H/D chassis?" if so, do you want to fit scale wheels to the loco to replace the original tiny ones? If this question is irrelevant, please ignore it! The main issue which you raise concerns the tender derailing. Have you checked the back-to-back measurement of the plastic wheels? If they are set to 14.5 mm even the plastic wheels should not derail. There is another issue with the H/D or Wrenn tender. The model is an amalgam of two different types and is therefore incorrect, not being an accurate model of either type. The front is based on the (Type 1) ex-streamliner tender, while the back is based on the (Type 2) originally built for the batch of unstreamlined locos (6230-4). The Comet tender is the best replacement, but they produce AFAIK the 4 different types which went behind the Duchesses, so pick your prototype carefully! Having said that I have butchered several H/D plastic body/ metal chassis tenders to give a reasonable approximation to the ex-streamline (Type 1). I can probably bore for Britain on this subject, but if this has raised any queries in your mind, please ask away! ATB Terry

I have been accused of being a speed merchant in the past, but I have a particular fondness for the D13 motor and 40:1 gear combination. I have 4 Duchesses with that set-up and not only has it proved quite powerful enough for hauling 14 kit built coaches but it does so at scale speeds well into the 3-figure mark. I have a couple of DJH Black 5s built recently, one of which has this combination also and the other has a Mashima can with a 36:1 gearbox. While the latter is creamy smooth, it is pretty slow compared to the D13 fitted one. I have a couple of Duchesses and a kitbuilt Royal Scot which also have the Mashima/gearbox combo and these too are not over quick, although they also are v. smooth. Digging into my spares box I found an old Pittman and a KTM (Pittman replica) motor and these are fitted into (yet) two more Duchesses and driving through 30:1 Romford gears, they are superbly powerful and fast, but I doubt you can get these any more? Hope this helps. Terry

Out of a spirit of altruism, I'm beginning this thread again. I have a number of SBS waterslide transfers (4mm scale) for LMS/LNER loco crests, and GNR, LNWR, L & Y, MR, Royal Mail, LBSC, GER etc. If anyone is interested, they are free to anyone who is prepared to send me a SAE and they will be return posted. If no-one is bothered, they will probably finish up in the skip, which would be a shame.

Further to my earlier offer, I have now checked and the full list is:- Grouped: LMS & LNER Pre group: GNR, GER, MR, L & Y, LNWR, LBSC & Royal Mail. The transfers are all made by SMS of Glasgow

I have acquired (no idea where from) a bundle of 4mm pre grouping waterslide transfers, mostly loco crests (I think). Too early for me, but I will happily post them to anyone who lets me know their particular company of interest. Please PM me and if I have them, please send an SAE to my home address, which I will advise.

Absolutely cracking picture of a Crossley-bodied Crossley double decker of Lancaster City Transport. i never knew that particular configuration existed, but then I don't know everything, as many people will tell you! I quite agree with Jamie that it's good to have a regular run on your layout, otherwise everything gets clogged up. I must declare an interest in that part of Lancashire having built a model of Hest Bank in 4mm, but I follow your exploits with interest, as 7mm is the "senior scale", and has the gravitas that smaller scales lack.

Yes, I have used 26 mm drivers throughout, as the slightly overscale flanges are less obvious as you get to the larger diameters. I have used some 27mm Markits wheels as well, but I am less confident that they will resist derailment so well. The ride height should not be too difficult to get right as the fit of the wheels inside the splashers will give you a good guide. I am still cranking myself up to dismantling 46247 and 46250 to photo them as a guide!

Hi Ian My normal method is to Araldite the square headed fixing screw permanently into the hole between the front frames and then file it down flush so it becomes invisible. The screw can then be located in a hole at the front of the chassis. At the rear, there is no need to have another fixing screw. I suggest a couple of options:- 1 Solder a strip to the chassis to locate in the slot under the cab, or 2 Solder a couple of lugs to engage with the front of the cab floor. I'll see if I can illustrate these two options with photos.

I agree with you about being reluctant to use Comet crossheads. The major snag with them is that several components have to be soldered together and then when you try to attach the connecting rods so that they pivot OK, you run the risk of unsoldering the previously attached bits! I have used some crossheads (lost wax castings, origins uncertain!) and I would guess that the Markits ones are similar. Being one piece castings, you aren't at risk of them coming to bits when attaching the conrods, or the drop links. Happy constructing! Terry

This is such familiar territory for me. Really nice job there, Barry. That looks exactly the same spec as a number of my pacifics, but your paint job is definitely superior to mine! And I certainly endorse your comments about the use of neodymium magnets; they are VERY effective. The old H/D valve gear/ motion also looks very good too. Even if it's not quite accurate, I believe it still looks very good, and as for pulling power, 14 bogies.... no sweat. Terry D

Thanks Tony I bumped into Mick Moore myself (at Spalding show?) and thanked him for his workmanship on the signal gantry and assured him it had been put to good (and authentic) use. Once again Valour looks a treat! Terry

Lovely model of a splendid prototype. Back to Hest Bank:- Firstly a couple of Black 5s built from DJH kits. These kits have been in stock for far too long and eventually I have got around to building them. Sometimes one's modelling mojo takes a bit of "kicking in", but the end result (so far) has been very satisfactory. Both locos run very sweetly and powerfully, although the choice of different motors/drive trains bring very different results. The upper one has a can motor/gearbox which runs much more slowly than the one below which has a D13 and 40:1 gears. Next is a very ancient Hornby Dublo Duchess (about 60 years old!) which has had some surgery around the firebox, scale wheels and towing a Ks destreamlined tender. Not too good at slow running but very powerful. It will pull just about anything you put behind it, so the customary load of 12-14 bogies is well within its capabilities. Just needs frame extensions over the rear pony, deflectors and a paint job. Also a work-in-progress, being a Ks Duchess and its accompanying scratch chassis. Markits wheels and a Comet motion and valve gear set are under way. It will be powered by a large KTM motor (Pittman copy!) and a set of 30:1 gears and will tow a Comet tender. It will be City of Hereford. Also for further work later on there is a further scratch brass chassis and a Comet chassis. The Comet chassis is of course made from very slim section metal and needs as much as possible in the way of cross bracing to achieve rigidity, "egg-box" fashion. Just one of these can be seen in place, but as many as possible will be incorporated in the final build.

Hi Ian You are probably asking the wrong person here for IT advice, although I have found that if I place a photo on the desktop screen and have the RMweb page on "half-screen" I can use the mouse to click on the photo and drag it across to the RMweb page and click to place it where it says. Alternatively the "choose files" option will allow you access to the various start points. Sorry if this sounds like "the blind leading the blind" but the little I know has been learnt by trial and error; emphasis on the latter! I will try and post some photos here soon! Terry

Good to hear from you, Ian. Yes you are quite right, I was ordained a few years ago (better late than never!) although it's a bit of a cliche about clergymen being railway enthusiasts! (Some of my colleagues are decidedly sympathetic.) And yes, we are based in a secluded valley not a million miles from the metropolis of Aberystwyth; the air is clean and the lack of dust means that the track on the layout very rarely needs cleaning. Congregations are quite small, however! I look forward to hearing of your progress with the Duchess project. For my part, there are now two more Black 5s on the layout, built from DJH kits. Not perfect, but they do build very nicely and they are sweet and powerful runners. Photos to follow when they have been through the paint shops. Also there is a Ks Duchess body kit approaching completion sitting atop a scratch brass chassis with a KTM motor (Japanese copy of a Pittman, I think), which will be City of Hereford, towing a Comet tender. A much-modified H/D later Duchess is coming along, too. It is scale wheeled but retains the original chassis/motor with the firebox pared down as much as I dare. It's a compromise, but the haulage powers are excellent. It tows the Ks tender from the above and thus is an example of the most common loco/tender combination of Duchess. It will probably be City of Bristol. Best wishes. Terry

Absolutely gorgeous, Colin. Just 2 snags, the catenary gets in the way and the view is the "other way round", i.e. looking west. The normal viewpoint of the layout is looking to the east from the seaward side. I tell visitors that if they were standing looking at the layout in reality, they would be getting their feet wet in the shallows of Morecambe Bay!

Hi Ian Thanks for the message and I'm delighted to offer such knowledge as I have! If the body shell has curved footplating ahead of the smokebox, it will be the first type produced up until about 1957-8. This is a better basis for a model of 46232 as the second type, produced 1958-64 (and later by Wrenn) has the utility (footplate with a gap) front end which is wrong for Montrose. I have a preference for the first type as it is dimensionally accurate and nicely proportioned. The second type seems a bit chunky. The main areas for attention on the body are:- 1 The firebox extends too far forward at the bottom. This is to accommodate the enormous motor that HD fitted and needs to be cut back using dental burrs, files and drills. There is plenty of room to rebuild the required shape using filler. If you don't want such drastic surgery, it's still possible to file away some of the excess metal to get a better shape. Photos or a recent Hornby model (which is accurate in this area) will assist you. 2 The body shell has "skirts" which fill in the space between the bottom of the boiler and the footplate. Removal of this using fine drills, files etc will improve the appearance, as long as you don't lose the curve at the bottom of the boiler. 3 The cab windows are too small; they can be opened out with a file to the correct size. The material used for the shell is cast mazak. I have never been able to solder it. As far as the chassis is concerned, a Comet chassis is a very good template to use for cutting out from 1/16 brass. Ideally you should sweat two strips of brass together and having marked it out, cut to shape with a hacksaw and big files. Drilling axle holes is crucial. Use a pillar drill and a 3mm drill bit (slightly undersize) finishing off with a 1/8 taper reamer. When marking the axle holes ensure the middle axle is a whisker higher than the 1st & 3rd. This will improve running. (I confess to a lot of trial & error at the start!) Comet chassis are very good as long as you use sufficient frame spacers; the more the better as the strength is in the"egg-box" type structure. Just make sure you leave room for the motor and gears! I have used 1mm brass in later chassis, they are just as rigid and if you use "top hat" bearings for the driving axles, there is sufficient bearing area and more room for the motor. You are aiming (in 00) for a chassis 12.5 mm wide. Good luck with the project and feel free to contact me with any further queries. All the best Terry

I'm surprised to learn that New Radnor station has been called "Presteigne Holiday Park." Presteigne is miles away, as my wife, who comes from there, will tell you. However, the area is quite intriguing railway-wise. There was, I understand a plan to continue the line over towards Pen-y-bont and further west. (Aberystwyth?) This was never intended to be a terminus. The network of lines radiating from Titley Junction (north to Presteigne, west to Kington & New Radnor, south to Eardisley and east from Leominster) is fascinating in its own right. Good luick!

Hi I spotted at New Street every Saturday morning until late 1958. The LNW side saw every type of large LM loco (Black 5, Jubilee, Patriot, Scot) and a number of Standards (Brits and Std 5s), but we never saw any LM Pacifics until later. The tunnels into New St were supposedly too tight and it was only after they were altered in connection with various road "improvements" in the city that they were allowed in. This also coincided with the modernisation programme that had D2xx diesels taking over the Pacific diagrams on the WCML that cascaded the Pacifics down to the Euston to Birmingham/Wolverhampton duties. So you will find some pictorial evidence of Pacifics in New St, but only post 1959. The Midland side (Derby to Bristol) side was less busy. I remember going over there from time to time and being disappointed that there semed to be far less happening than on the LNW side. Spotters seemed to congregate by the "fish dock" at the south-east end. There you could see everything going in & out of the LNW side but also the Midland side. I understand you are planning to model the other end (north-west) where the turntable was. That will be interesting, although road bridges do impinge somewhat. But you will have departures for Gloucester & Bristol on the Midland side (to the left) and for Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe etc. on the right. The great advantage of New St is that it was a very restricted site. You could therefore build a really busy layout in less space than many a country branch line terminus. Good luck!

I quite agree with the comments about choosing a prototype to model. Back in the day at Wolverhampton MRC, we initially chose fictional "generic" Yorkshire(ish) locations to justify ER and LMR stock (Fordley Park and Leighford for those with long memories), but in due course the decision was taken to build Stoke Summit and then Charwelton. These latter two were particularly satisfying not only operationally but also in terms of public appreciation at exhibitions. They also had the merit that photo evidence told you where everything was supposed to be on the model. No brain exercise required! It also informed my decision to build my own model based on Hest Bank (qv). It is therefore a pleasure to see what Graham is doing with his grand scheme and I look forward to reading more.

Congratulations and well done with the roof in particular. I shall be watching this thread with particular interest since I have lived in Wolverhampton longer than anywhere else (although not now.) Whilst I love to see beautiful BCT buses in their primrose & prussian blue colours from my native Birmingham, I think it might be more appropriate if you were to have a yellow & green Guy Arab in Wolves colours. Britbus did them and I think there was a Roe bodied one available too. A destination blind for Whitmore Reans (service no. 13?) would make it perfect! Keep up the good work!

Hi Tony I can tell you exactly where it went! I bought it from you and it is now resident and a regular performer on Hest Bank. Yes, I know it was an M&GN loco during 1958, but rule 1 applies....... (It's my train set etc.) Besides there were plenty of Ivatts at large on the Western Division, so it's not as if the type was "foreign". Christmas greetings! Terry D