Clem

1 minute ago, Headstock said:

Good morning Clem,

 

Ex NER Clerestories were cascaded to the Southern area. However, this is the kind of carriage that you would require.

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/lner/other/hA0F0D341#ha0f0d341

Yes. Thanks Andrew, you've nailed it. That's exactly what I'd be looking for. And yes, as far as I know, there were NER clerestories knocking around the East Midlands but I fairly sure they'd disappeared 5-10 years before my era although it's possible some survived in departmental use. 

12 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Clem

 

Worsley Works do etches for some of the NER stock. I haven’t built any yet but I understand that they are good etches. 

........it’s just occurred to me that these are clerestory ones which may be too early for your modelling period....

Jon

Hi Jon,

yes that probably would be the case. But thanks for the tip.

Clem

9 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

 

For something like a bogie side or a fan vent why don't you simply build (or otherwise acquire) a single good example, make yourself a silicone rubber mould (not at all difficult for something fairly flat with only one detailed face) and cast all the copies you could ever need in resin, or in whitemetal if you must. Isn't that a better economic approach than sending uncomfortable amounts of money to a purveyor of novelty technology in another country?

Hi Graeme,

yes that would be a reasonable approach but when you're trying to build a layout single handed to a reasonable standard, it becomes a time thing. And my resin casting components ran beyond being useable so they were disposed of. In other words their would be a substantial overhead to it. If all else fails of course that's exactly what I'll do. one thing for sure, I won't be pursuing the Shapeways solution. I can't justify paying those prices. I am looking at promising alternatives at the moment.

On another subject, you've done quite a lot of GN and GC boiler mounting castings. Did you ever do a casting for the LNER produced later utility dome as used by a majority of the O4s from about 1940 onwards?

3 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Clem,

 

the new Parkside hoppers have  definitely reignited my interest in building authentic trains.

 

Re matchboard strengtheners. Don't forget, these ex GC carriages were also an integral part of a number of sets that ran over both our lines. My five set, containing the ex GC BT(7), was one of several operating as three sets in your time period. As well as working services on the Nottingham Woodford Rugby axis, they also worked Nottingham Mansfield Grantham services. I also notice that one of the Nottingham Grantham ex GN double twin sets has an ex GC T (10) sandwiched between them.

 

In addition, there are a number of one off sets that only turn up in photographs. An almost full ex NE set, an ancient ex GC set and a complete set of ex GE carriages. 

Good morning Andrew. Those hoppers look perfect for the gypsum trains, and yes, you were right about the price of the GC 10'6" bogies. (see post above). Almost £60 after shipping - more than the kit! I think I'll phone MJT and see where they are with theirs....  or see if its feasible to scratch build them. 

Your comments here on the sets operating are certainly in line with the photos I have. I now have a kits in for a GC  T(10), a C(4/5) and a BT(6). I've had these recently from Bill Bedford although he doesn't seem to be opening advertising them on his web site. I ordered them by phone. 

 I also have a photo of a seaside special which has a gangwayed GE and a standard gangwayed GC carriage (i.e. not one of the Barnum type like the preserved ones) in it.

Sorry to be always asking damn fool questions but do you know if anyone does kits for any of the NER non-gangwayed carriages that lasted into the 1950s? They also seemed to appear quite regularly on these lines.

I know I have a lot of work cut out for me here but I want to be making a start soon. Your work has certainly inspired me on that front.

Clem

1 hour ago, Clem said:

Ah thanks Andrew. I'll get on to Shapeways. The functional but undetailed 10'6" bogies I've got in are actually Bill Bedfords via Eileens Emp. It's important that I expand the variety of my carriage stock to reflect what was actually running on the Nottm-Derby GN line in 1954-5, so (a) GC matchboard strengtheners is a must as soon as I can get to it. If I can produce something half as authentic looking as yours, I'll be well happy! 

 

Clem

Well, I've just been on the shapeways site and found the cosmetic GC bogies. A bit of a shock really. By the time the shipping from the states is included, the bogies alone cost considerably more than the kit itself. What the hell has happened to Shapeways? It used to be that its products were quite reasonably priced. Hey ho. I'm going to look elsewhere.

17 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Clem,

 

I'm very well thanks. I must be some sort of loony, as I am rather enjoying my modelling without agitation or fear.

 

Re the A5 tank, the 12.03 PM was a regular working for a Colwick A5 tank. It will not be 69809, I have a loco in mind. 

 

Bogies for the 60' BT (7)?

 

 

I sourced complete 10' 6'' bogies from Shapeways. The price seems to have rocketed a bit but you also get buffers. Correction, side frames only. Darn, I will have to go get the carriage now and see what I did with the bogies.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/HBD4XEKJK/gcr-barnum-fox-10-6-quot-bogie-side-frames-and-buffer

 

Update

 

Having checked the carriage, I scratch built the bogies and then added the side frames. I think MJT produce a fold up etch for a 10' 6'' bogie and were promising a GC set of side frames. They have probably got lost in the pandemic. My previous 10' 6'' bogies came from Dan Pinnock but I don't know what the current situation is with Dan.  

Ah thanks Andrew. I'll get on to Shapeways. The functional but undetailed 10'6" bogies I've got in are actually Bill Bedfords via Eileens Emp. It's important that I expand the variety of my carriage stock to reflect what was actually running on the Nottm-Derby GN line in 1954-5, so (a) GC matchboard strengtheners is a must as soon as I can get to it. If I can produce something half as authentic looking as yours, I'll be well happy! 

Clem

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Chamby,

 

I would like a Colwick A5 too! like this one at Uperton Road bridge, to the south of Leicester Central station. The working is the12.03 PM Leicester Rugby ordinary passenger train.

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=179466&search=69809

 

The two dia. 210 twins are built, the bridge and the goods yard and shed are built and the track is laid. The A5 awaits in the queue, I had better get my skates on before the layout is reduced to scrap!

 

Hi Andrew. I hope you are well. I sure you will have noticed this, but just in case, if you build the A5 in the photo, remember to use the round headed LNER buffers rather than the GC oval ones that the rest of the class had.

A quick question on a different subject if I may... What did you use for the cosmetic bogie sides on your 60' GC matchboard non-gangway carriage? I can't seem to source any at the moment.

Clem

21 hours ago, dibateg said:

Apologies if I have posted this before, I honestly can't remember. I'm a lot more suspicious these days when building locos and never assume that anything is right, so refer to photos in preference to drawings. Had I still got my 4mm B1s, I would have had to do something about that motion bracket... Anyway I think I got this DJH/Piercy B1 right. Don't say anything now as it is away being painted by Paul Moore!

 

Regards

Tony)

Lovely Tony. Which one is it going to be? (61209, 61281 or maybe 61264 possibly?)

2 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Thanks, I had it in mind that Heaton engines tended to go north from Newcastle but clearly not always.

Evening Robert,

In my experience trainspotting at Newark and Grantham from 1958-63, Heaton locos tended to be more common than Gateshead locos. I saw all but 3 A4s and 2 of those 3 were Gateshead based. Heaton A1s, A2s, A3s, V2s were all pretty common I believe - I saw all the Heaton A1s and A3s and all be one of the A2s. The V2s were slightly less common in the South (possible because long distance fast fitted freights ran more at night?) and I only saw about half of those. I probably visited Grantham and Newark 10-15 times each during that period.

21 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Clem,

 

I'm not to keen on using electrical spinney things for such tasks. My solution if I was batch building, make a jig. Something a bit like a cofferdam with the wagon sitting upside down. It would then be a case of filing back to the top level of the jig with a big file.

 

If you have a copy of Robothams 'Great Central Railway's London Extension', there is possibly the best photograph of one of the Gypsum trains on page 42. There is an extensive 15 line caption that waffles on about all sorts but completely misidentifies the train as a general goods! I have this low quality scan that was sent to me of a J39 shunting hoppers and minerals at Rushcliffe Halt. We are looking north with the train snaking around into the sidings at Hotchley Hill, notice the Charles Roberts hopper under the bridge. The station still exists in, there wasn't enough room to add in an island platform in the original build. The Gypsum works is also still in existence, located off to the right.

 

Morning Andrew.

Yes I know Hotchley Hill very well. It's now part of the GCR (heritage) northern section and still, I believe, used by BR or whatever it is now (or was until recently) for gypsum traffic via the main line spur connection with the ex-MR at Loughborough. Yes I do know this photo and have the book. Hmm ... a Charles Roberts for the second vehicle and at least some of the 13 tonners as modelled by Parkside.

The approach you suggest for filing down the underside is a good idea but I'm not sure how easy making up a jig would be as it would have to accomodate the detail which sits above the plate. Let me know if you do one so I can see how you've done it. It also shows why you are a first rate modeller and I'm just a bodger .

While I'm posting, do you have any idea what is the origin of this type of hopper (see below). This is at Rutland Railway Museum. I've noticed one or two of these in the ore trains on the Derby line. Obviously private owner. I wondered if they are an earlier version of the 22T/24T ones.

53 minutes ago, jrg1 said:

Perhaps a dental burr at slow speed?

Yes. Thanks. Must get some in, although the mini milling piece is a bit like a dental burr for a bear or a lion. Funnily enough, I'm not having the same problems with melted plastic clogging the cutter that I have done in the past.

11 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Clem,

 

thanks for taking the effort to reply so quickly and in so much detail. One of the things that I was pondering, was whether it was possible to cut away the platform, leaving the various detail parts in situ but attached to the hopper body. I can see from the way that the model dismantles, that it may not be possible and filing down the platform may be much simpler. I am bound to have more questions, for the moment, I must do a bit of work in the garden before the forecast changes. I can't believe that RTR manufactures are still charging 'blue ribbon' prices for these elongated little monsters. Many thanks again for the inspirational work.

You're very welcome. Think of it as a small pay back for all the inspirational posts of yours (and others). I had considered doing exactly as your suggestion at first but I couldn't see how you could get the detail off without writing it off. In the end the filing was the only option other that scratch building all the detail. One short cut I now use - but it is a bit risky is to use a mini drill with a mini milling attachment . By going down to about 0.5mm depth every couple of millimetres you get a ploughed field effect which can then be filed as normal until the areas are flat. In doing this, the file seems to make far quicker progress. But you have to be careful not to go too deep with the milling attachment.

23 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Clem,

 

good to here.

 

One of the photographs I have of the Hotchley Hill gypsum train, has a replacement Charles Roberts hopper at the head. I would like to replicate this, could you send me your recipe for converting the RTR version into your very accurate looking model. I can't remember what was your choice of chassis?

 

Many thanks.

Hi Andrew,

I've just started another Charles Roberts. I'll attempt to record what I do as I go along. I'm afraid my standards are as high as Geoff Kent's but I think they are about passible. I start off with a Bachmann RTR model of the BR diagram 1/162 which of course is what I call the Charles Roberts hopper as that firm made many for both private companies and for BR to this design. This model is not bad in its shape except it's as though it has been stretched 7.5 inches or 2.5mm in 4mm scale. The wheelbase and under frame is totally fictitious (10 foot with a vacuum cylinder and of course 7.5mm too long). So first separate from the chassis and throw the chassis away.

The plate above the chassis can  and should be separated from the hopper body. We need a 9 foot wheelbase with double 'V's on both sides and fortunately, Parkside do one ref no PA08 which can be adapted to produce something quite close.

First of all you need to cut and shut the body and also its supporting plate which sits on top of the solebars. You only need to cut and shut the actual body in one place and take out the full 2.5mm in one go. I do this by cutting on the inside of one of the two stantion strengtheners i.e. in the central part of the body. I use a combination of scalpel with blade and scalpel with custom saw blade.(www.modelcraftcollection.com). Once separated, I scribe a line 2.15mm from the central edge all the way round and using some micro end-cutters, I carefully nibble off the 2.15 all the way round and then gently clean up both edges and dry fit together.

Any gaps have to be fixed by strategic filing else where to bring the gap closer together. Once satisfied, I put the two halves together on a flat surface upside down and weld together, adjusting until all sides meet up perfectly.

The supporting plate is a little more complicated as the top detail is worth retaining. The first thing to note is the excessive thickness of this supporting plate (1.5mm) and if the Parkside chassis is simply added then the resulting model will be a good 1mm too tall. So I remove by file 1mm of the thickness for about 3mm from the edge all the way round the underside of the plate. 

Next we need to cut and shut 2.5mm out of the plate. But to keep it symmetrical two cuts must be made, one to the outside of each of the inner small body supports. For this I use a straight razor saw. This time, after separation, I scribe a line 1.1mm to each of the outer pieces and use the same nibbling technique as described above to remove the said amount. This can then be fixed together in the same way as described above.

The body and support plate should now have the correct dimensions and dry fit together as shown. The sole bars from the Parkside kit can be added although I file a little off the top to ensure they sit flat and to reduce the running height of the wagon a little further before fixing. This leaves the solebar too shallow by about 0.7mm but I address this later by adding a lower flange under neath later on in the process.

Before permanently fixing the body to the supporting plate, the plate needs further surgery and this is where I'm up to on the model illustrated.. The body actually should sit on a semi-open frame and I try to represent this by taking out a large oblong shape at each end of the plate situated under the end supporting stantions to accommodate the bottom door opening gear and also down the sides, close to where the body meets the supporting plate. To achieve this, with a 1mm drill,  I drill out on the inside of the shape all the way round and cut and file until it is straight and accurate. See the scribed oblong at each end of the plate  ready for this process. After this,  I will also drill a series of holes against the inner support of the body and file giving and open framework all the way round.

I'll add more to this as I go along later in the coming week. Please excuse me if this description is a bit dry  - descriptive writing is not my strongest area.

15 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Certainly Clem,

 

I thought it a bit mean to order all five, so I went for three and left two for someone else. I figured that by the time I had completed the first two and the new three, there would be more available if required. Get in fast and happy hoppering.

 

https://www.derails.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=127&product_id=1451

 

 

Thanks Andrew. Now ordered!

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Is there anything more exciting than a rake of hoppers in the world of model railways? Don't all rush to answer. My two new plastic hoppers have received their white metal ultra buffers and are ready for a good wash. Also nearing completion is a Bradwell brass hopper, currently on temp wheels and awaiting an ID. Three new hoppers arrived this morning, delayed by being sent to the wrong town yesterday, courtesy of Royal Mail. I probably should of got some axleboxes at the same time, I shall see what I can make up.

 

 

Hi Andrew,

Can I ask where are you sourcing your kits from. I'm still waiting on three coming in which I ordered some time ago via Eileens.

30 minutes ago, Headstock said:

There you go Clem, now you will have to model it!

Ha ha! I've already been planning towards it. But the ore train needs completing first. Then there's the passenger stock that needs building including at least one GC non-gangwayed BT and also a ten compartment Third... and of course the station buildings, another bridge, a goods shed and other scenic detail....   But I'm hoping to build the beer train in parallel, the road-rail tankers being particularly important to give the train its individuality. I need to stay healthy for the next few years just to get close!

Andrew, I realise that if it comes down to it and LSG doesn't survive the effects of this virus, that a lot of the motivation and drive for your modelling will disappear. But you have such great talent as a modeller that I hope you find enough space to continue, if only as a secondary pastime to keep these skills intact.

Clem

16 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Clem,

 

I'm not super up on the bear trains from (Midland?) can you spell out the route please. Wouldn't the loco change be in the GC FWTT?

Evening Andrew,

Certainly. The GN route to Burton-on-Trent was via Derby, Eggington Junction and then via the North Staffs (GN had running powers) to Burton where the line crossed the Midland on an overbridge (although there was a connection at Horninglow) and into the GN sidings at Hawkings Lane. The GN sidings there connected up to Burton's Brewery lines. I think the Burton-York beer train left Burton at around 6-30pm and comprised of open wagons containing barrels, vans, many shock-absorbing, and flat wagons carrying road hauled tanker trailers. It turned on to the GC at Basford and Bulwell (Basford North). There were also a significant amount of traffic between Colwick and Burton.

I think there is every reason to expect the loco change to be in the GC WTT. Probably around 7-30pm. I'd be very interested if you can find it.

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Clem,

 

Do you think so? Many thanks, it's part of a raft of BG's of different diagrams within a formation, this one is not in Notts fag traffic service, hence the open window.  It's not a kit per say, rather my usual potpourri of bits. The floorplan and roof being slices of MJT bread squeezed onto a comet sides sandwich. The ends and angle iron are scratch built, while  the the 8' heavy duty single bolster bogies (are you paying attention Hornby?) are my last pair from  Mail coach. They are bulled up with Comet brake gear and bolster detail castings from scrap box number 5. The underframe bits and bobs are pure MJT goodness. Paint is by me.

A friend of mine has the FWTT for the GC mainline, I thought there was a possibility that it may also cover the GN lines around Nottingham, as both are part of the western operating area. Unfortunately it doesn't. I shall make some more enquires, I'm sure I've seen the Grantham route come up somewhere.

 

The FWTT really are fascinating, there was so much more going on than in the average PWTT. They are one of the reasons that we know the Gypsum trains stopped in South Loop to change locomotives. They also provide an explanation for the diversity of locomotives on the Gypsum trains North of Leicester. The locomotive having often worked local goods services from Leicester to such locals as Queens Walk and Abbey Lane. They returned to Leicester with the Gypsum train. 

 

That's the thing about the secret life of freight trains in the FWTT, they were always stopping and starting in order to take water, change locomotives, drop off or pick things up, or just stand about for reasons unknown to the casual observer. I suppose that railway modelers really should do more of those kind of things, with their freight trains and locomotives.

Hi Andrew

In some ways I could have forecast this reply. Knowing your previous work, very little is a simple reproduction of a kit - probably why I asked. You always seem to go that extra mile (in some cases a few miles) to produce a model that is both accurate and looks the part to my eye.

You discussion on the FWTT is spot on to my way of thinking about running a layout. Considering the effort I've put in over the years I spend so much more time building than operating mainly because, without a WTT, there's no framework to build an authentic operating schedule on. You can deduce some things from photos but it's still just a well-informed guess and probably only a partial truth. For example, I have a picture of the beer train at Bulwell Common south with a B16 piloting a K2 coming in from the spur as the K2 had stalled on the sharp, tightly curved spur and the B16 had gone down to assist. I deduce from that that in all probability, the train changed engines at Bulwell with the York engine taking over there. But without the WTT it is just a guess. For me a 1954 or 1955 FWTT would be a game changer.

5 hours ago, Headstock said:

Just to show I'm still modelling despite reducing determination.

 

I mentioned my attempts to get above 90% accuracy with trains built for LSGC. For some trains like the Newcastle York Bournemouth and the Master Cutler, this was relatively easy, as there was plenty of documentation and photographs and even individual carriage numbers were discovered, The locomotives working the services were even more well documented. 

 

What of the remaining 10%, are they totally moonshine? Not quite, some allowance had to be made for trains that ran in the middle of the night, were the formation could be gleaned from documentation but not confirmed by a photographs or even first hand accounts. For example, the exact types of BG's that were being used in some formations was unclear from a CWN's. In this case reference was made to photographs of BG's parked up or being loaded during daylight hours, at Sheffield, Nottingham and and Leicester. Reference was also made to documentation that listed BG's built for, or cascaded too the GCLE. 

 

The model shown below, is of a dia 260 steel panelled BG, renumbered as E 70532. It has recently been completed and is ready for running, hooray. The prototype was built new at York in 1942 and turned out in Wartime austerity brown. It was allocated new to the GCLE and went directly into service. As such, it is perfectly reasonable that it could have operated between Nottingham and Marylebone, even it is not an absolutely ascertained fact, that it did so. A good example of 10% modelling?

 

lots of yummy buffers and stuff arrived from MJT today, so I had better hopper off, Ho Ho.

 

Terrific model Andrew. May I ask, is it a from a kit and if so what make? It's beautifully finished and subtly weathered.

Interesting discussion re. 90%-10%. I attempt a similar approach except I think my 10% is more like 35%!    Robert has helped improve accuracy with correct CWNs but I really could do with a mid-50s freight WTT for the GN Derby line. I've been on the lookout for years and I think Tony (Dibatag) who is modelling Basford North is in the same boat. Photographs do help but it's much more satisfying if you can pin the photo down and be able to say for example  "that's the 6-30pm Burton-York beer train".

43 minutes ago, Headstock said:

Re club rooms, they are open with restrictions. However, not being an elderly Edwardian gentleman or ancient boy racer, I only got my second 'Astrojab' a couple of weeks ago and it is only now operational. That said, I'm not in too much of a hurry to go down. I doubt if LSGC will ever go out again, so I'm just finishing up my modelling to my own satisfaction. Shame about the B7 but there you go. On the other hand, with the completion of the hoppers, I can claim that I achieved what I set out to do. That was to produce a set of authentic trains with a high degree of accuracy, not less than 90%, that would have been instantly recognizable to the lineside back in the day. Perhaps a last photo shoot would be a good idea, the majority of what I've built over the years has never been recorded in situ.

The thought of LSGC not going out again fills me with dismay. With the authenticity of the trains and the wonderful standard of modelling, it really must be allowed to survive this virus, if it's possible. I think it may be a year or so before we can be sure of shows. But I really believe they will be back and as strong as before. In any case I want to be able to see your D210 and other Gresley and GC carriages in action! And don't give up on the B7. It would be great to see one on LSGC. They've always been a loco of interest for me.

On 04/07/2021 at 12:36, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Clem,

 

the Bradwell kits defeated me in terms of building them in quantity. I infilled with the Parkside 21 ton hoppers, nice kits and ok for a late period version of the train. I find late period modelling deeply unsatisfying, so the Parkside kit is a bit of a boon as they were brand new in 1949, though based on a PO design. 

 

The photo below is a very rare image of one of the Hotchley hill gypsum trains in operation, so rare, the author is indistinct to what it is. They were usually formatted with the 13 ton hoppers up front (southern end) a batch of GM opens and vans (often shock) in the middle. The GM opens were carrying bags of plaster and the vans carried plaster board respectively. The tail end was composed of standard mineral wagons, carrying processed gypsum like the hoppers. The choice of hopper or standard mineral was determined by the unloading arrangements at the journeys end for each raft of wagons. I know that some gypsum was bound for power stations and sometimes the hoppers were sheeted but I forget all the details now. If you look closely at the image, you can see the stripes on the end of a shock van beyond the hoppers.

 

When the train was being researched, we talked to the then Managing director of British gypsum at Hotchley hill. When he was a University student, his summer job was cleaning out  freshly dropped off 16 ton mineral wagon at Gotham sidings, so that they could be loaded with unadulterated gypsum from the mines down the branch. The 13 ton hoppers were only on the gypsum trains and each had ''return to East Leak'' painted on the sides.
 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/8707129257/in/album-72157629554560373/

 

Morning Andrew,

That's a great snippet of research you've done. I do (vaguely) remember the gypsum trains on the GC but I don't particularly remember the consist of them. I still have a big interest in the GC having lived in sight of the line from 1960-1966. If I remember correctly the locos on the gypsum trains were pretty varied : J6, J11, O4, J39 but they generally stood out as most of the freight was in the hands of the 9Fs apart from the York-Woodfords which were either B16s or V2s.

Anyway,  I'll be using the 13T to help pad out my ironstone trains although they were as common as the Chas Roberts and the ex-LMS hoppers. I can't fathom why no-one has done a kit for the LMS hoppers - they were so common both on ex-LNER and ex-LMS lines and I think some even got down to South Wales. Looks like I make have to bite the bullet sometime soon and do a batch scratch build.

By the way, are you getting back into the club premises yet?

Clem

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Clem,

 

I've been adding a batch of the new Parkside hoppers to my gypsum train, another East Midlands special. They compliment the Bradwell version of these wagons quite nicely. I've added a coupe of details not found in the kit, the face plates to the solebar support brackets and the additional bracing, along the lower edge and the end corners the hopper body. I have loped off the buffers and these will be replaced with more robust HD types. I think that it may also be worth adding more detail to, or replacing the axle boxes.

Evening Andrew. Looking good and benefits from the extra detail. I’ve got three of these on order but there seems to be shortage at the mement.