Switcher102

That's a good saying Simon, better to do things right than right now. I'm glad you went to the show and that Protocab are looking good. It looks like a very good system, they think like I do. They want to try and make it a hands free system. The things that have put me off RC in the past has been all the handling. Big clunky switches to switch on and off, heavy handling to recharge, or even having to remove batteries, but they are dealing with such issues. No removal of batteries, light touch switches, in the future even induction charging which requires no handling .... and no jack rabbit starts which I've also associated with RC. They will be using the lithium ion batteries which give more power per size, meaning smaller batteries, and supplying protective circuitry with them, also back up protective circuitry. I advise if anyone is interested to get onto their newsletter mailing list. They produce a good newsletter, and I also advise asking for past issues. Ken, it would be interesting to hear about model boat technology, but last time someone mentioned model boats, referring to smoke generators, the generators were so big you wouldn't be able to fit anything else in your locomotive. Do they have any technology that is small enough for O gauge and the smaller scales? I mean small enough that they don't take up all the space

Hello again folks Just a quick note to give a plug for this up coming firm … http://www.protocab.com/ …. who are exhibiting at the Scaleforum show this weekend in Aylesbury. They've been beavering away for sometime now to get their product ready for sale but it seems they're getting close now. The video doesn't really show much but I think they loook very promising, I'll type more later about why I think so but just posting this in the hope I might catch someone who's interested and could go to the Aylesbury show and perhaps give us some feedback. Sorry late posting this. Rich

Actually, I was wrong here .... Uuuh! Shock, horror! .... Yes, I know, it is quite unbelievable isn't it? Although the RC loco I have on loan does have IR sensors they are not being used by this handset. Apparently it is radio controlled. No wonder I don't have to aim it. Rich

Excellent John, thanks very much for that, nice one. It's almost therapeutic watching your locomotives. Impressive layout, and at 1:48 scale that means that gas mechanical is quite small. I imagine the RC equipment is quite tightly packed inside The technical info is interesting. As I understand it for every 1000mAh of battery power you get 1 hour's running time if your loco pulls 1 amp. Therefore that means your loco was pulling a minutely small fraction of an amp. Actually many people missunderstand my views on model operation. I'm not really an advocate for slow driving (although in your layout's case John if that's how they drove then that's how they drove, and that should be portrayed) and they are surprised to sometimes see me driving my locos like a 'bat out of hell' (even I have my 'Grrrr, let's give it some' moments). When I refer to prototypical motion I am referring to start-stops and accel/deceleration rates. Whenever I get a loco going fast it will always have been started and accelerated at a realistic rate, and conversely it would take a while for me to bring such a fast moving locomotive to a stop. I would never purposely make a locomotive move with such G forces that would cause scaled occupants injury, even when testing a locomotive. Thanks for taking a bite John Rich

Aaaaau, don't be like that Robin. I tell you what, I'll take that taxi out of here again (provided of course it moves with realism - don't you just hate it when the real thing jerks about like a toy … hate that hate that) and I'll make sure he keeps going …. into the sunset …. …. BUT, watch out, I might be back. Rich

Yes Ray, rather than individual RC road vehicles, if you wanted some road traffic on automatic you could use the Dynamo MCC system, and then have a few RC road vehicles to drive about amongst the ones on automatic. That could be challenging. You mention the cornering, notice that even they have slipped up a bit with the cornering but they are able to adjust their speed as you can see by their realistic starts and stops so it seems to me that the system has the capability to make them slow down on corners. I am really showing this RC system to show how small RC equipment can be these days and still be good enough for model locomotives. Rich

I've found this:- http://selketal-h0m.de.tl/Mikromodelle.htm Stuart quote #300:- " Probably not achievable in ngauge, but certainly proves the point in 00/H0" Remember these are road vehicles, and road vehicles are smaller than rail transport (I think the railway in the videos is narrow gauge). Have a look at that white van, do you reckon it could be about as small as an N gauge locomotive? Here's another superb vid:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUzzmUxcfM8 Bill quote #301:- " These are not RC controlled, they have infra-red gear, Which is OK, but only line-of-sight." Actually I am taking RC to stand for Remote Control. Would not the title of this board be better being 'Remote Control'? You are right they are infra red but I'm intregued to know how you figured that out. I also thought infra red meant line-of-sight, but the RC diesel I have on loan is infra red and it has a sensor at both ends and I do not have to aim the handset. It doesn't matter where I aim the handset it still works, it even works though a wall, that is when I'm in the next room and the adjoining door is open. It's a shame Faller only cater for the toy market. I think they have gone digital but I have not found a Faller digital system that moves prototypically. Another company have used their vehicles and given them model type movement, but these are not RC:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmZTFoeTiIM Rich

Here we go folks. Not my RC equipment, but at last I've found some RC models that actually move like models. Such things are very difficult to find, and the thing you have to realise about the models in these videos is their scale …. 1:87!!!!!!! Cripes, it's difficult to find better movement than this even in O gauge. In my opinion these are the most brilliant RC models I have ever seen, this is Giles standard at 1:87 scale, so if anyone can understand the language (German?) it would be great if they could find more info on these fantastic examples of RC modelling:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMe9_HYW1bo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEXq9JkO5WQ If this can be done at 1:87 scale …. well ….. ? Rich

Hi folks, the taxi driver did a full circle and brought me back to face the flack - the rotter We've got a music festival on here at the moment so haven't got much time to reply at the moment. I would love to give a demo of the RC loco I have but the problem is it's not mine. I'll see what I can do but it may be some time. I aim to buy the system but first I've got to find a locomotive body to put it in. It's just a diesel body and chassis I need, no motor because it's best to have a free running motor system (saves on battery power and can producer better start-stops) and ABC Gears produce such a system which is so free that when the loco has no power it can be pushed and the driving wheels turn. Robin, quote #297:- "I experimented a bit with inertia but I found it unuseable on my very short end-to-end layout - I just crashed into the ends." Ha ha …. that's because you're not used to driving a model. I also only have a very short end to end at home for this O gauge RC diesel but I can do it easy (OK, so I have had the odd misshap). It just means you can't get up to speed (as could not the real thing on such a short end to end). Got it up to speed on Tuesday though at a test track and I must say the batteries have lasted very well indeed even though they are not LiPos. I will try my best to get a demo video, I won't forget, it'll be a while though Rich

I've found this thread with great interest. This is just the kind of discussion I have been wanting. Really glad to see people encouraging RC in model railways, I also think it has got to be the future, in fact I have an O gauge RC locomotive on loan at the moment and am very much enjoying being able to go wherever I like on other layouts, and go as slow as I like over points. Even though I have DCC, it's only with an RC loco that I feel I REALLY AM driving the loco. For some time now I have been thinking exactly like the original poster, Stuart, why can't it be the same as DCC, except the signal travels via the air instead of the rails, as per the Tam Valley Depot system? But please, I've just got to mention something that I fear might cause offence. Please take this as constructive critisism, but you know how it is, I hope, when something keeps bugging you and in the end you've just got to say your piece before the top of your head shoots off into the stratosphere. Well, I'd rather like to keep the top of my head so here's my piece:- I haven't read all of this thread yet (up to page 6 - so please bear that in mind when reading this) but I'm working my way through. Question:- Does anyone know the difference between a toy and a model? I get the impression there are quite a substantial amount of modellers who do not. Toys and Models - What's the difference? Toy - a simplified smaller version of the real thing in both looks and movement. Model - an accurate scaled version of the real thing in both looks and movement (well, as accurate as is practical). I have found that many modellers seem to forget the movement aspect (which is just as important in a demo video as it is in normal operation, in fact more so in this thread). The number of times I have seen a superbly detailed model made to jerk about like a toy is something I find very depressing (and puzzling). Anyway, back to the plot, for me the main initial, repeat initial problem I had with RC was its toy image. RC as a concept is not something that needed to be demonstrated to me, and I doubt many people, I even knew that the technology was getting smaller as I have seen very small toys operated by RC, but the point is they were all toys, or at least moved like them. Some of them may have looked like models but the RC equipment made them move like toys, and I'm afraid to point out that a lot of the videos trying to promote RC for model railways on this thread have also made the models move like toys, which to me defeats the object. We already know RC can do that, the question is can it make them move like the real thing, can it make a model move like a model? Sorry Stuart, but your starter video in #1 is one example, as is the transformer video in #37 and Robin's video in #131. The videos that do promote the RC concept for model railways to me are the DelTang videos (but only when inertia is used) and Frank's video #138 (which also shows better that it is RC, but that is not really my point), and of course Giles's fantastic 1:43 scale lorries (on another RMweb thread). The point I am trying to make is that a model railway is supposed to depict realism, and that realism includes the movement, and for me the problem image RC has had in the past, and perhaps still has for many, is that it is only capable of toy like movement, therefore it is vitally important that any demo video promoting RC shows prototypical movement. Right, I'm off ….. TAXI!!! Rich

Another excellent job Giles. I like the way the crane moves and the way the cables move aswell. The cable bends like it should between the pullies and of course the head moves along lovely and smoothly. Can rely on you for some good realistic action, although I'm not sure the Fowler would move quite that slowly in postioning itself, and that's coming from someone who is himself critised by most of his fellow modellers for driving too slowly. I'm sure you'll make quite a splash if you do exhibit with your lorries, locomotives and crane at the Gauge O Guild show at Telford in September (which I seem to remember you're booked down for). Rich

Hi John - that's a great sound, that engine. Love it …. I'd love be able to flick a switch on the dashboard of my 1:1 scale car and make it sound like that once in while, just for fun You've done a great job with that Ford. I mentioned about the quick changes of direction. Do you know what I mean? Like at time 0:50 in your video the Ford is reversing and suddenly changes direction and goes forward. Even modern gearboxes would have problems doing that but those old 1920s / 30s gearboxes didn't even have synchromesh on 2nd and 3rd gears, never mind 1st gear. The trouble is it's very easy to slip up and do that on controllers, especially controllers with a stick for movement. Is your controller like this?:- http://static.zigwheels.com/media/content/2012/Nov/remote-control-bentley-continental-supersports_560x420.jpg Those controllers are great for having fun with bigger model racing cars and airplanes etc but I think they need modifying when you're looking for realistic movement, and at small scales. When I eventually get around to doing this remote control stuff if I use a hand set like that I will make a 'gate' to fix around the stick that makes it impossible to move the stick quickly from forward to reverse. What I mean is a frame (or gate) that fixes over the stick and has vertical slots in it that allows the stick to move upwards and downwards for forward and reverse … BUT … those vertical slots are not in line. In order for the stick to move from forward to reverse it has to first move horizontally. Do you see what I mean? The stick wouldn't be able to move so quickly from forward to reverse then, it would have to zig-zag first (it would have to move horizontally first). According to the guy who was demonstrating that MCC Digital System, converting it to 1:43 scale wouldn't be as simple as just installing the equipment in 1:43 scale vehicles. It would require dealing with higher voltages, higher specification decoders. I would need help with that, and the group that deals with such things is MERG. Have you heard of them John? Here's their web site:- http://www.merg.org.uk/index.php Rich

Hello again folks. Well done John, the Ford is looking brilliant. You're doing a grand job there, and a good paint job too. You stated you were hoping for more speed with the 1:5 gearbox. Can you get more speed out of it or is that top speed? I see at about time 0:58 on your video your driver has mastered that old 1930s gearbox admirably and is able to change direction in a millisecond I look forward to further posts of your progress. I went to the Warley Show at the NEC Birmingham last Saturday and walked past what I thought was the usual toy-like Faller system, busy stopping and starting with such G forces the scaled occupants would be dead within minutes. I walked past it again later on and on closer inspection found it was not a toy system at all. This was Faller converted to move like the real thing, this was Faller converted to a model, and guess what John, this is produced in your country. Take a look:- The steering is still a bit scary sometimes but that can easily be altered by smoothing out the track and making them slow down for corners. The system I saw had traffic lights and the vehicles had indicators. Notice how well they stop and start. I hope you can see the potential for this system. This is not Faller's digitasation of their product, this is by a company called VPEB and it is called the Dynamo / MCC Digital system:- http://www.vpeb.nl/english/solutions/cars/ The company are represented in Britain by this company:- http://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/ Unfortunately they don't supply O gauge versions but I'm sure MERG would be able to help. Remote control is great for a layout that has just a few vehicles, but for layouts that have a more substantial road system, which even O gauge can have, static vehicles stuck on roads busy not going anywhere is a bit of a spoiler as I know you'll agree. Cars stopped at level crossings not taking the opportunity to go when the gates go up, it would really be better if the cars were not there at all. Even on layouts with a more complicated road system you can still keep some vehicles remote control, but you can't drive all of them. You could have people driving the other vehicles via the Internet (it's being done already), or you can have an automated system. Such a system doesn't have to have them going round and round in circles getting dizzy. It can make their journeys have purpose and some vehicles can be made to fit in with the railway e.g. a taxi drives off from a station after a train has just come in. The possibilities are very exciting I think. Rich

Ah, I see. Yes, the gearbox and final drive are separate. I look forward to further progress on this, and on your Ford Pop.

John - wouldn't a 5:1 gearbox shoot off too suddenly? And stop too suddenly? Aey, that's the trouble with American wireless DCC, frequencies illegal for over here. Rich

John, remember that this is a new system that hasn't even been launched yet. As I understand it this is a remote control system with decoders, they call them LCUs (Locomotive Control Units) and at the moment their main objective is to just get them to drive the motors, but if this system takes off it has great potential I think. Just like with DCC decoders that have functions i.e. the ability to run other things such as lights, couplings etc., these LCUs could have functions added, one of which could be used to work the steering servo on a remote controlled road vehicle. What do you reckon? Rich

Gosh that's excellent work John. It's looking good, your work is very neat. It moves very well and I like your choice of music. This new system by Protocab could help you with motor performance because they are aiming to give you the ability to fine tune the motor, like DCC. Therefore you could get a lower ratio gearbox and then smooth out the starts and stops using the fine tuning, hopefully anyway, the system hasn't been launched yet. Rich

Folks, thought I would acquaint you with a new company that I think looks like having great potential:- http://www.protocab.com/ They are shortly hoping to launch their product, wire-free model rail control. I know, you've heard it all before, but look closer. This is not the ordinary 'Just-Get-it-Going' type remote control (your remote control excepted of course Giles), this is a bit more refined. Their web site is not very comprehensive at the moment and they will update it once they know the launch date of their product. Things I like about this company:- * They are concerned about prototypical movement * They have decoders in their models * Their RC system has two-way information transfer i.e. hand set can tell state of battery etc. * They aim to have on-track battery charging via induction charging i.e. don't have to handle model * They will be fitting on/off switches that only require a tap i.e. don't have to handle model * Many decoders can be operated from the one hand set i.e. locos and road vehicles could be operated from one controller * They are concentrating on the smaller scales such as 4mm. An advantage for O gauge modellers motorising road vehicles Things I'm not too sure about are the fact they are will not be DCC standard compatible i.e. you will have to use their decoders, but the reasons given seem to be understandable. To make damn sure that loss of control does not occur due to loss of signal, also to make sure no one else can take control of your model, apparently "…. the rules that cover how the data is passed across the network - have to be far more detailed than the current DCC standards, of necessity". I don't know what that means for an American company like Tam Valley Depot who do a wireless DCC system, whether it means their system is likely to have such problems as loss of control and interferance from other RC controllers. Being a new company they are keen to hear modellers views and you can have a better chance of molding them to your preferences. I think they are worth keeping an eye on. They will be demonstrating at this show:- http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/events/7688-expoEM%20North%202013 Rich

Excellent Giles, it's looking good. The material you've used for the cable reacts well. It's not too stiff and hangs very much like the real thing, and the crane trolly (whatever it's called) moves well. I look forward to the progress of this project. Rich

Excellent, I like the way you are thinking Giles. A toy maker thinks 'Will this work?'. A modeller thinks 'Will this work like the real thing?' Hopefully see you tomorrow Rich

Aey, them's the fellas. HO were they? Cripes. Move well and look quite effective (except of course for the staballisers, that's the biggest challenge) but as you say they need to be used with realism. Rich

John, I couldn't think what you meant at first, but I think I get you now. You know, I have been thinking how to make cyclists and motor cycles work. I've seen them work following a track, 1:43 scale I think it was, legs going round aswell, but remotely …. wheeeew! Do you find yourself looking at virtually everything in the real world and thinking "Mmmm, I wonder how you could get that to work at my scale"?

Wow John, a 1:87 vehicle with sound. That's amazing, and it starts and moves really well. Wouldn't like to be a 1:87 scale fella inside it when it stops though There's other good stuff linked to that video aswell, an excavator that moves incredibly well for such a small scale. I'm wondering whether to start on this stuff before continuing with my railway stuff. After all, the way I aim to build a model railway will require road transport and diggers very early on because I will be attempting to build a model railway in the manner a railway is built in reality. In other words I will start off with just a landscape, then attempt to recreate the way a real railway is built, and that will require diggers, and a landscape that can be dug into. Don't ask now how I am going to do this because I haven't yet figured it all out, but that's the aim. It will be some time before I organise room to place the layout. This method of building a layout means that once you've got the basic landscape down your 'layout' will always be finished. It's just the actual 'railway' itself that will then need building, and that will be built by models, well ….. perhaps with a little help from yours truly aswell. So, another reason this thread is a godsend for me, I need these models in order to actually build my railway. Thanks for linking Giles's translation of your site.

Oh excellent John. Glad you're doing a 1:43 version, and thanks for the link to the 1:35 version. Interesting.

Thanks John. Something to put in my Favourites. You can get smaller flywheels, or make one if you've got a lathe, but how effective they would be I don't know. Bound to have some effect in smoothing out the motion. I'm not very knowledgable about remote control models. How do you switch the power on? Is it on the speed controller, and does it drain power significantly when the power is on even when not being driven, enough to make you feel you should switch it off if not driving the model for a while? Oh yes, a car has got to be the next step. If they can do it at 1:87 scale it can certainly be done at 1:43. Go for it Giles. I think I've got one of those motors, I think they're used in mobile phones to make them vibrate.