auldreekie

A little more progress, and some minor challenges to note. I decided to start by cladding the jigger side and the two ends, because this would support the vulnerable existing "prongs" at the front corners, whilst providing relatively good access for painting purposes to much of the interior. The main panel on the jigger side went into place straightforwardly, apart from the fact that I needed to pad out with microstrip the relevant edge of the bunker-divider so as to enable it to provide support/ rigidity to the large side panel. This arises because I deliberately cut out the divider slightly narrow: I find padding out with microstrip, followed by minor filing and sanding, to be a more easily-controlled process than filing back from a slightly-misshapen part as originally cut out. The upper end panel is going fine, but (as expected) it is a slightly tricky job, because it has to bridge between the jigger-side panel, whose edges slope in very slightly (by just over 1 millimetre over the height of the panel) and the "prong" at the tippler-side corner. This prong is the representation of the main reinforced concrete frame member on the tippler side, and it is vertical when viewed from the tippler side. So there is a very slight inward slope to be managed along the line of joint between the edge panel and this vertical member. Whilst very slight, this is a noticeable feature of the structure, and indeed one which puzzled me not a little when making a working drawing. My way of dealing with this, still in progress, is first to glue the bottom edge of the end panel into place. Then, before the solvent is set firmly, to glue the end panel to the slightly-sloped edge of the jigger-side panel. Then at a similar stage in the curing of that second joint, to glue the by now slightly-sloped end panel to the edge of the "prong". This looks to be going well. It DOES require a fair degree of accuracy in the cutting of the panels and in the mitring of the joints....... auldreekie

A bit of more visible, but perhaps less actual, progress. An overhead picture of a later elasticated lashup, this time with the ends switched to their correct positions. I suppose I should take heart that the work has been sufficiently precise that they can be interchanged readily.... However, complacency is quickly removed by the awful sight which is revealed of the bodging and fudging which has been necessary to arrive at this point. Nevertheless I think this begins to show that the bodging, etc was worth it, since the larger pieces of the external cladding now appear to fit quite well, although I'm postponing gluing them finally into position whilst I give some thought to what best next to do. There's much to be said for a campaign of tidying up the underpinnings, filing and filling as necessary and ensuring proper representation of the various beams under the bunker-hoppers. The drawback is the vulnerability of the two long prongs of the end-pieces whilst such work is in progress...... This picture also demonstrates clearly the principle on which the innards are arranged, even if detail is lacking and/or inaccurate. In the model, it's there mainly to ensure rigidity, but also so that, when the onlooker peers into the tippler-side chasm, there's something there which has a credible relationship with reality. I hope.... auldreekie

One elasticated lashup. Still most of the job to do, though. auldreekie

Here, then, is how matters now stand. So, what has been done? - The two supporting beams for the larger bunker hopper have been shaped and attached. Trial and error, quite a lot of it, was needed here to achieve a snug fit. - Cutouts have been made in both bunker hoppers to accommodate the vertical legs attached to the ends of the overall structure. A slightly tricky task also. At both ends I overdid the cutouts, and had to backfill with scraps of styrene, measuring repeatedly until all was well, and correcting a slight lack of rectangularity at the large bunker end so that, in due course, the ends of the entire structure will parallel one another precisely (I hope....). - A filler piece has been added for the remaining gap between the legs at the large bunker end. - All the resulting scars and hollows have been filled with Milliput, left overnight to cure, and filled/sanded into relative tidiness. - a length of microstrip has been added to each side of each hopper, at the top edge, to space out by the amount by which the hoppers were designed narrower than the main vertical divider, and this has been filed to leave the outer top edges of the hoppers, as so amended, pretty well exactly parallel in plan. To complete this stage, there remains to: - repeat the relevant parts of this process for the smaller bunker hopper; - fill four remaining small corner spaces outboard of the legs of the main structure, and - make good. At this stage, I expect to start to tackle attachment of the bunker structure to the main external panels, starting with the ends, then moving on to the lowest panels on the tippler and jigger faces, and working upwards, adjusting as necessary. We shall see...... auldreekie

Having said that it's moving faster than expected, I have now run into the first expected source of delay - making sure that the innards are a good fit to the outer panels. It's very difficult (as I have found when modelling hipped roofs) to make these pyramid structures so that they have an accurately-rectangular outline. For hipped roofs with an overhang at the eaves, a millimetre or so of imprecision is unimportant. But with this structure, a fairly high degree of closeness of fit is essential. And the problem is compounded for the bunker hoppers by having two of them sit pannier fashion around the dividing partition. Consequently, I modelled the bunker-hoppers fractionally under size, so that I have for several days been engaged in cutting, padding-out and filling to make good the fit. There has been quite a bit of trial and error. I think all is now well with the larger of the two bunker hoppers, but I have some work yet to do on the smaller one. Then there will be some overall fettling of the bunker-hopper-plus-divider assembly before I can move on. I think that, when I do move ahead, the first step will be to fit on the two ends and check for verticality, then to attach the lower panel of the jigger and tippler sides respectively. That ought more or less to true up the basic structure, and at that point I shall be able to draw breath and consider the order of future operations... Picture to follow when there's something to show. It may not be much, but it will indicate to the enlightened eye where the work (play) has had to be done. auldreekie

Thank you. That's interesting as the only non ground-level (ish) photograph I've seen of the tippler face of the Haymarket plant. I've saved it, and I shall have to see what information can be extracted by "zooming", even although it's not the most distinct of images.... auldreekie

It's moving faster than I expected. But there will be a bit of a pause whilst I source proprietary details: appropriate industrial window-frames, stairways, stanchions for the handrails. And I decided to mitre the corners, rather than overlap them, because it makes it easier to keep the concrete framing overlays, etc in proportion. But the downside is the tedium and the mess the job makes, so that too will slow things up a bit..... And it's FREEZING in the "conservatory", which cuts down on the length of shift..... auldreekie

Well. Here are the essentials of the innards of the coaling stage, not as yet definitively stuck together in all parts, but getting close to fettling, along with the outer skin, to form up the basics of the structure. The upper hopper is as yet perched at its point of balance, rather than asymmetrically as it ought to be, as indicated by the two pencil marks on its rim. It's just as well that styrene is a forgiving medium, since it was an afterthought to extend the bunker-divider upwards to support the sloping sides of the upper hopper. Not sure if this was so in reality: it makes structural sense in the model, but the external framing on the real thing does not reflect any such arrangement. What did become clear as assembly proceeded, however, was that no gap needs to be made in the bunker-divider to accommodate the flap in the upper hopper: this would have functioned internally to the hopper, I think, leaving no channel of communication between the two lower bunkers. And I think that I shall provide triangular supports to the lower bunker-hoppers, in line with the legs of the main structure. This will significantly strengthen the model, and photographs suggest an arrangement at least of beams in this position, which may well have been triangular, wall-like, supports. auldreekie

I ought to pay more attention. Parts for top hopper, version 1 and version 2 (corrected)..... I leave it to the alert student to spot which is the correct, asymmetric, version (arranged to enable feed to either of the two bunkers, one of which is larger than the other). Glad I spotted this before I started chamfering and gluing. Pity it wasn't before I hacked them out of the styrene.... auldreekie

Whilst there's still something of potential interest to show in relation to the fabrication procedure..... The internal view of the two sets of side-pieces, showing the laminated structure of legs and cross-beams. When the main subassemblies are joined up, there will be a pair of similar laminated cross-beams across tippler and jigger faces, forming a rigid frame for the whole structure. I hope that this will do much to resist any tendency for the styrene external panels to warp. auldreekie

It doesn't half produce, as a by-product, a lot of styrene dust and odd little bits of styrene. Fortunately, it's too cold in the "conservatory" (place of modelling activity) for the domestic authorities. So until now I have escaped censure for the mess. But I know it's only a matter of time....... auldreekie

Well. I don't intend to post so frequently in future. But at this stage the learning curve is quite steep, so it may be worth sharing some of it. Both hoppers fabricated as I assume them to be at the base of the bunkers . Still some fettling and tidying to do to them. For example, I intend to laminate the main legs of the structure to full thickness right up to full height at top of the bunkers and to include the two horizontal cross-pieces at that level. That will require two small rectangular sections to be cut out of the outer side of each hopper, so as to clear the legs. Until I had reached this stage, I couldn't quite visualise how the flap at base of the "receiving" (upper) hopper would be pivoted. But it becomes clear that the principle is that there will be an appropriate cut-out from the top edge of the partition dividing the two bunkers, and the flap will pivot on the bottom edge of that cut-out. I still have to puzzle out how to achieve simultaneously an appropriate-sized aperture at base of the "receiving" (upper) hopper, and a correct overall height for that hopper to fit the rest of the structure. Next little challenge...... auldreekie

Er... You asked for it.... Construction begins. Slowly. auldreekie

David, Thank you. Without your encouragement, I would otherwise hesitate to invade your thread any further. The build will not go quickly, because I have rather a lot of narrow-gauge activity in progress right now. The pictured locomotives, sadly from this perspective, have nothing to do with Haymarket: they are part of my current semi-batch build of "narrow gauge superpower". When built in due course, I intend that my standard gauge depot will be peopled in the first instance with some proprietary and kit-built BR, ex-LNER and ex-NBR material from various numbers of years ago, I DO intend to move on to some more ambitious builds, starting with some based on Graeme King's articles and conversion materials. But that is, I fear, a year or two off at best. For the meantime, the coaling plant will make a brief appearance on the (very rough) NG depot, just out of curiosity to see how it compares with the present more realistically-sized incumbent........ auldreekie

That DOES look very good indeed. But, as you say, great minds.... (I shall pass over for the moment the fools who seldom differ....). Just as a taster, and in no way to detract from the encouragement given by your splendid model, here is an aerial view of work-in-progress hereabouts: A long way yet to go....... auldreekie

That IS a very good picture, not only of the coaling plant, but also of the water tank. I too had no idea about that foreground building, although perhaps photographs taken from beyond the western edge of the main shed may reveal something of it - I'd have tended to ignore this whilst concentrating on the coal plant. Nor had I noticed the brackets protruding from above both south-facing windows of the headgear. I'd guess that the actual height probably lies between "my" 83 feet and "your" 93 feet. Either would amount to a pretty domineering sight. I just MIGHT stretch the vertical component of the dimensions a little in the upper reaches, but I'm inclined to the view that, if it looks right, it will do...... One small thing. I'm mystified by the small rectangular hole in the west side of the tower, with what appears to be an electrical or mechanical wire connection running downward from it... auldreekie

All I have done is scaled from photographs. I have done it several times from different sources. But all were taken from somewhere near ground level, so that there may be some parallax-induced slight tendency to underestimate vertical dimensions towards the top of the building. As some degree of check on this, I have long hoped to find (a) shot(s) taken of the near-identical Kittybrewster plant from a level high up in the tenements opposite its "tippler" face. But so far no luck. My drawing comes out at 332 mm high x 140 mm along the base parallel with the railway tracks (180mm over the headgear) x 79 mm deep across the base (not the legs) of the raised concrete structure (140 mm over the full depth from point at which the tippler rails enter the ground to furthest overhang of the jiggers). It's so long since I drew it up that I really cannot remember how specifically I arrived at these dimensions, but I think it likely that a large part was played by the picture of the Kittytbrewster installation forming Plate 30 in John Hooper :"LNER Sheds in Camera" (Oxford Publishing Co, 1984), and a long process of amendment, successive approximation and checking with views from all available angles. There seems to be an awful dearth of decent photographs of the tippler side of either installation. I think it would not help to try to force your approximation based on the Bachmann model into those overall dimensions, since as unamended it has a somewhat different configuration over the track, and since you have added a representation of the Haymarket headgear/ machine room over the top of the Bachmann one. I make no claim for the precision of these figures as a representation of the real world, but I'm reasonably confident in the overall proportions (with the caveat made above). If you should be privy to, or should come across, any such dimensions based on design parameters or survey on the ground, I'd be very grateful if you'd share them. Meanwhile, the process of styrene cutting and fabrication plods on. Slowly. I now have estimated sizes and shapes for the key bits of the guesswork innards, but they still have to be assembled and fettled...... auldreekie

David, Thanks for your appreciation. I don't wish to hijack your thread. But this seems a better place to post for a degree of comparison than to run my build separately. Styrene thickness is 80 thou for flat sections, 60 thou with 20 thou overlay for panelled sections. Cutting the thicker bits is quite hard on the hands and it is slow work. Other than for the control room and winching-head structure on top, there will be three main sections for each side, as well as for the jigger-side face and for the tippler-side face. I aim to provide some degree of internal bracing, to combat any tendency to warp, by fabricating a rough representation of the internal hopper system. I reckon that the machine-room etc structure could be made out of 40 thou with a 20 thou overlay, as it needs less rigidity and resistance to warping: that would save wear-and-tear on the poor old hands..... Getting to close grips with actual fabrication, even at this stage, has caused me to revise my drawing, mainly to overlay my guesswork at the internal hoppers, but also slightly to correct the slope of the main section of the tippler face, and to re-site laterally one of the jiggers by a small amount. I have no intention to make the model functional, although (with ingenuity much greater than mine) it would, I think, be possible to do so on lines similar to those indicated by LNER4479. I have one slight (and ill-informed) caveat: the one (poor and distant) photograph which I have seen of the tippler actually tipping a wagon does not show any counterweight projecting at front nor any provision to do so, although this explanation may partially account for the outward slope of the main panel on the tippler-face of the structure. There could, of course, be some system of wires, pulleys and dangling counterweights hung off a similarly-cranked bottom half of the "goalposts", which could have a similar effect with less drastic "swinging" effects on the structure....... auldreekie

Looks pretty good to me..... As a matter of possible marginal interest, the first steps towards a scratch-built version: This build will proceed fairly slowly. Ignore the narrow-gauge locomotive top right. auldreekie

Well. I've spent a fair proportion of this afternoon photocopying my drawing, correcting one or two minor errors in the photocopy (mainly the position of the jigger under one of the hoppers), and puzzling over one or two unresolved aspects. The position of the door high on the "jigger" side of the building (not the upper one, which is clearly the entry to the machine room) was ever a mystery to me. Now I think it is the entry to the platform from which the flap-door was operated directing coal to hopper of choice. But I'm still slightly at a loss, as the wagon-restraining beam would (if my other suppositions are correct) be at just about the operator's head height at its limit of travel. Perhaps the likeliest explanation here is that I have scaled the vertical dimension in the upper part of the drawing slightly too small, not allowing enough for parallax due to any nearby photographer's ground level position: a minor correction might give adequate clearance, and would also give a doorway of a more likely height. So, back to the drawing board tomorrow.... Having re-engaged with this, it is increasingly likely that I shall take a shot at building a static representation from scratch in styrene sheet. The main external structure could be broken down into a few large components in 80 thou sheet or, in some instances, in 60 thou sheet with a 20 thou overlay to represent the visible framework. A rough representation of the innards would lend support to the externals, resisting any tendency for the sides to bow, and I think it would suffice to satisfy the casual onlooker moved to look into the void on the tippler face of the building. Hmmmm.... I hadn't planned to spend time on this right now, but it might be the kick needed to restart long-deferred work on "Haymarket"....... auldreekie

David, See posts 267, 269 and 271 above. And it's worth seeking out the diagram at page 20 in E.S. Beavor "Steam Motive Power Depots." Although that is not self-explanatory, in conjunction with the above posts it makes the principle clear. It's the detail of the implementation at Haymarket and Kittybrewster which continues to puzzle me a bit. It looks, especially from the "new" picture, as if the wagon-restraining beam in this instance forms part of a set of "goalposts", pivoted somewhere about the centre of one of the back to front crossbeams visible in the side elevations of the structure, probably the one at the top of the lowest recessed panel. If that is so, and if, as appears in one or two photographs, the wagon-restraining beam's position of repose is leaning significantly forward, then it's not entirely apparent how the counterbalancing mechanism for that beam would be arranged. This probably doesn't matter much, if at all, for the purposes of a static model. But I DO like to know what I'm representing -- even if the representation ends up pretty crude....... Incidentally, the "new" photograph is also helpful in clarifying one or two other aspects of the structure which it took me a long time and quite a lot of effort to puzzle out from previous material, notably the slight slope on the upper sides of the structure, beneath the machine room. This, together with the constant thickness of the main vertical members on the "hoist" face of the structure (such that in indistinct photographs they cast very unexpected shadows on the tapering sides) was not at all easy to fathom out. Again, my apologies for the irruption into your super thread. It has quite grabbed my attention -- I hope it has not derailed your efforts! auldreekie

Thank you from me also for the "new" coaling tower picture. That's much the best picture of the beam which I have seen. It also gives some indication, by the illuminated sloping strut at the edge, of what its mechanism might be. Given that, in this particular version of a coaling tower, the beam seems to recover forward beyond the vertical, I remain slightly puzzled as to how the recovery/counterbalance mechanism for it might be configured. I'm also puzzled as to what the precise function might be of the triangular outward projection from the guide rails of the hoist mechanism: it presumably has something to do with the tippler action, since it is close to that end of the business? There are some good photographs around of the process of demolition of the near-identical Kittybrewster tower. But all those which I have seen are taken from the jiggler/stairways side of the building. It looks as if the tippler side was reduced earlier in the process, so that any picture from that side might reveal details of the internal arrangement of beam mechanism, movable baffle, and/or hopper construction..... auldreekie

I think that the key to making it "look right" is knowing how it works. So it looks as if you have done both of us a considerable favour. Now, where did I leave the bits and pieces of my Haymarket shed model.....? auldreekie

Yippee... I've now had the eureka moment. It was your explanation together with Beavor's diagram that did it. - The beam which supports the tipped wagon is in fact the top member of a set of "goalposts" pivoted pretty much where the wagon-supporting cradle pivots as it tips. - The counterweight is yet another one (distinct from the ones counterweighting the wagon plus cradle in their passage up and down the face of the hoist), this time against the "back" wall of the hoist, the wall away from the wagon tippler. - The counterweight is connected to the top of the beam by one or more (presumably steel) ropes which loop over pulleys at the top of the back wall. Alles klart! Many thanks once more. I now reckon I could model a fair representation of this, although I'm not sure that my ambition would yet stretch to making it functional.... auldreekie

Many thanks. And apologies to David for starting this diversion. I hope he too is finding it helpful. I'm still pondering.... auldreekie