WFPettigrew

If the challenge with that cupola is the louvres, what about borrowing admittedly more modern? https://www.westhillwagonworks.co.uk/workshop-depot-c-24/detailed-workshop-wall-vents-pack-of-8-p-250 (With a price that is an order of magnitude less than Shapeways!!)

From Chris Croft's seminal articles on wagon building in the MRJ (in particular issue 13 on brakes) - the addition of wooden packing between the push rods is a post-1923 modification, presumably as part of that year's new RCH standards. So these can be filed under that dark and mysterious time after the pre-Grouping era!

I do and this is something I want to try, although I would be trying to do the skewing in GIMP or another editor and then possibly using that or Inkscape to sharpen it up. I know POWsides do a "pay us and we will design and print for you" service - do they also do a "we'll print your design" (for presumably less money) service? (One would hope less money as from what you say it sounds like they then take ownership of the artwork and can sell it on to others as part of their range..?)

Thanks for that detail Jamie, and @Andy Hayter and @MR Chuffer - the article I had read had misled me into thinking the previous mines had kept going when in fact it seems there was a 30 year ish gap. My modelling era is planned to be confined to late spring (ie Whitsuntide) 1913 or 1914, in which case New Ingleton is just a few months too late. But it's a possible candidate for slight timeline bending! I am still debating how best to get the lettering done for the aforementioned Lower Holker wagon, and whether or not I do the artwork, getting that produced by POWsides is an option I am mulling over.

Stephen, it is backed up by a number of bits of evidence as well as being stated by various local historians in published books that the preference was for S Yorkshire housecoal. Just off the top of my head are: The photo at Lindal ore sidings that we have referred to previously on here, which has numerous Old Silkstone and Monkton wagons. The photo of Grange with an Ackton Hall colliery wagon unloading. F Wilkinsons coal merchant/factor of Ulverston and wider area (they were also the coal merchant at Sandside on the FR's Arnside-Hincaster Jn line for example) were agents for Manvers Main Lower Holker Coop (OK they only had one wagon, but it was a Hurst Nelson curved ended beauty!) was in a contract with Glasshoughton Colliery at Castleford. And interestingly I cannot think of any photographic evidence of Lancashire coalfield wagons in Furness. Clearly that's not to say they weren't there, but they weren't there in numbers. I wonder if the Lancashire coal was perhaps too smoky or otherwise less suited to house fire use? Neil

You learn a new thing every day on this thread - thanks Jamie and Stephen! I must have driven past the New Ingleton pits a hundred times and never knew before now that they were there! Going googling for more info, Wikipedia is somewhat unclear when the New Ingleton Collieries actually began, certainly in or before 1913 it would seem? And aside from some mentions of coal going to the mills of the Colne arae, and local sales - plus clearly export via Glasson Dock - do we know what the markets were for this coal? (Asks a FR modeller always looking for a new PO option! Though I am sure Stephen will sagely, and correctly, point out that as clearly MR wagons were also used to transport it away that I could just have a D299 loaded with coal that could as easily have come from Ingleton as it could have come from the South Yorkshire Coalfield, and which we know was a very popular choice for providing house coal to the good people of Furness.) All the best Neil

If this question ever came up on the TV show QI (and let's face it, stranger things have been asked on there) , then surely Alan Davies would immediately shout out "black"...! Probably earning the klaxon for the obvious but wrong answer...

Hi Marc Yes that's correct - in that the MR ran boat train services all the way from St Pancras to Barrow, initially to Piel station and then once it opened, to Barrow Ramsden Dock. However, the MR never ran steamer services from Barrow: it was a co-owner of the Barrow Steam Navigation Company, which was a three way partnership between the MR, the Furness Railway and James Little the Scottish shipping company. I understand that this was in effect James Little running the service, with financial investment from the MR and FR. In contrast, the FR's service between Ramsden Dock and Fleetwood, which was the 1846 link to the outside world when the landlocked FR first opened and was revived by Alfred Aslett when he took over as GM and set about improving the FR's passenger fortunes by wooing thousands of tourists to visit the Lakes from the boarding houses of Blackpool, used vessels owned by the FR. I think the difference is that the FR from instigation had the powers to run such a service to Fleetwood whereas they (and I am fairly sure) the Midland did not have the powers to run sailings to Belfast or the Isle of Man - hence the BSNCo. So there is a difference of ownership and therefore the "customer" wanting coal for their ships was different - and it would seem likely that the FR would want to try and supply the coal to its own vessels to avoid having to pay someone else for hauling the wagons. Quite who did it for the BSNCo is (even) more of a mystery! All the best Neil

All this talk of bunker coal for ships makes me realise that I have never seen virtually nothing about how the steam ships using the port of Barrow were replenished with coal. Certainly no evidence of 3 or 4 box wagons. There is one photo from the Sankey collection from memory, which shows an FR open loaded with what appears to be coal, on the side at Ramsden Dock station, which would likely be for the approaching paddlesteamer from which the photo was taken. Interestingly as said paddlesteamer was operated by the FR, the wagon is a standard open, not the design used for FR loco coal working (but then the FR had a rather open mind to "departmental" use - I have seen more photos of ordinary 2 planks in civil engineering use without any markings than those that actually have "Ballast" painted on the side). All the best Neil

Trouble is, there are enough of examples of remote junctions on single track lines where there isn't a double track approach on all sides (closer to home for me would be Redhills Junction just west of Penrith on the line to Keswick for example althogh admittedly the NER spur there was double track, just not the CK&P either way) and don't get me started on the dubious arrangements for the junctions for the Solway Junction Railway or the Port Carlisle branches off the NBR Silloth branch. Back in East Anglia, at County School there were two lengthy parallel single tracks that then merged without anything more than crossovers both ways. I suppose - aside from how closely you want to observe BoT strictures (whatever precisely those were - and Stephen's example does give a model approach to that) then there is a second consideration about what you want to achieve by such adherence. Sorry if this has been covered previously but whenver I see a discussion about this BoT rule, I remain uncertain what the (presumably safety related) purpose behind this. All the best Neil

Sorry I thought the question earlier was about how long the double track section was on the combined section (i.e. the bottom of the Y). I am aware that the triangle there was double track, but that wasn't the issue?

Going back to Norfolk - and the Newstead Lane junction just to the south of Cromer was definitely minimalist in its use of a double track section on the combined side of the junction: https://maps.nls.uk/view/120846947

Jamie you're thinking of Cavendish Dock - which was never used as an actual dock, just a reservoir. The timber pond was alongside the Anchor Line basin, now long since filled in. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15.4&lat=54.10047&lon=-3.22097&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld All the best Neil

I cannot speak for Liverpool, and am having to rely partly on dodgy memory* but the Furness Railway docks in Barrow imported large amounts of timber over the years. I have revisited the online history of the port (written by Capt John Green, a long term head of ABP in Barrow) which states that timber imports were encouraged from Canada. * I cannot find much reference in either of the late Dr Michael Andrew's books about the FR and Barrow nor in Ken Norman's FR history but I am sure I have read somewhere that Barrow did import timber from the Baltic area. I guess for a cargo which is far from perishable, then shipping it round to the west coast may be cheaper than landing it on the east coast and having to stump up for a longer train journey? One other thing which again I cannot yet find a local reference/explanation for, but part of Barrow docks had a large "timber pond" which was used to put imported timber into. A Google search suggests that on the Clyde at least, such ponds were used as a way of storing and more easily sorting timber (you could just push them around til you found the bit you were after without all the heavy lifting). This seems a daft thing to do with seasoned (i.e. nicely dried) wood, but they didn't have the kiln drying in those days, and that same Clyde reference also notes that large trunks were left for months or years on the banks to dry out before it was used for shipbuilding - suggesting perhaps that what went into the ponds was shipped green. It does go on to say that once timber was shipped pre-cut (which is where we get back to our deals) then this practice stopped. Not sure this really takes the sum of human knowledge much further forwards, but hey... Neil PS how many of us have searched for coffee stirrers today and been frustrated that they only quote the length, and don't bother to mention the crucial two other dimensions?!

Thank you. Will see what I can come up with!

Quick question as I prepare to use four or maybe even five washers each side to pack out an 00 inside bearing unit* to the P4 B2B, is there any benefit in soldering/otherwise sticking the washers together? I am scratching back at memories of O Level Physics, whether lots of rubbing surfaces will introduce more drag than just one on the inner and outer faces of a mega-washer, or not? Afraid the memories of aforementioned are rather dim and uncertain, so hoping an empirical approach will help resolve matters! All the best Neil * bought because Dart Castings had run out of P4 ones, and feared it could be 3 months before they could re-stock given the upheaval in the etching market at present.

According to the recent serialised article in the last couple of editions of MRJ, the Corris quarries were into other uses for slate (such as gravestones, snooker tables!) as much as they produced roofing materials. However there were many quarries served by the Corris Railway, so they may have had varying priorities. Also feeding the Cambrian was the Talyllyn whose sole quarry was, according to that article, wholly devoted to roofing slate. (But I don't know whether TR souced slate had shouldered top edges either!) All the best Neil

It's a shame that these don't feature the correct top of the slate as that is so distinctive. As I am now the proud owner of one of @MarcD's 4mm FR 2 planks, I need to find a solution so it can be loaded with slate. The Kirkby slates scale at approximately 5 to 6 thou in 4mm, he says mixing his units, so some suitable thickness of card or styrene sheet could be the way to go, unless there is a proprietary product I am not aware of? All the best Neil

This reminds me, for those who prefer the deeper, darker days of pre-grouping, until the mid 1890s, Burlington was unique in producing an entirely curved top to the slate, hence the quarry workers being known as Roundheads even for decades after they switched to the more conventional "nip off each corner" approach, as seen in this photo. @Annie beat me to it with that photo but there is also the one I posted previously of some wagons at Grange which shows that the gap in the middle remained after loading (in other words, the place where the two of them are stood in the photo at Kirkby Slate Wharf (btw the book dated it to circa 1910) wasn't just a gap because they hadn't finished loading). All the best Neil

Picking back up with slate, a topic that we discussed at some length earlier this summer, I have now had a chance to properly study the book "Burlington Blue-Grey", the history of the slate quarries at Kirkby-in-Furness, which were a major driver for the creation of the Furness Railway. The history was written by R Stanley Geddes, who worked at Burlington Quarry from a boy until he retired from being a director there. He had access to the company records, so I hope that what follows is pretty definitive. The book is about an inch thick, with small type, delving into all sorts of aspects of the quarries, their workforce, village life, etc. I have tried to pick out the points which I hope are of use to modellers. He described Welsh slate as the best for splitting, as it can be split to 1/6 of inch. These slates are very true but he describes them as "rather fragile". Burlington Best slates were at least twice as thick – so 1/3 to ½ inch thick – and stronger. Looking at the other Cumbrian quarries, Coniston Green and Buttermere were slightly thicker than Burlington. Although Burlington could produce a wide range of slate sizes (as well as larger stones for walls, buildings, etc) 90% of sales were “randoms” – slates of both random length and width, most often Large Bests (24” to 36” long and random widths), Small best (14” to 25” long and random widths) as well as two which only went to the Scottish market (and these sizes died out after WW2), Best Peggies (10” to 14” long, random widths) and Second Peggies (6” to 10” long, random widths). Randoms could be used to lay diminishing courses from the eaves to the ridge which was popular with architects. These were laid with a number (say 3) courses of 24” long slates, then one row of 23”, then the same number of multiple courses of 22”, and one row of 21”, and so on – this ensured that the diminishing continues right up to the ridge, rather than having an appearance of the bands (visible slate) diminishing, then getting larger for the top row. The other 10% of output were generally fixed length and random width (aka Best sized), or fixed length and fixed width (Best and Second Patterns) 24”x12” or 20”x10”etc. which took much longer to make as a template was needed. The book has no data for customers in the early 20th century, but in 1883-4 principal sales were: Furness area 5% Lancashire (not Furness) and Cheshire 20% Westmorland 4% Carlisle and West Cumberland 6% Yorkshire 28% Scotland 34% The other few per cent went to the north east, Derbyshire, Leicestershire, and other places but all in small percentage quantities. The author says that at this time, the English South and Midlands were supplied “almost entirely” by Wales, but in the North of England and Scotland, “we competed more closely”. All these sales from Burlington were transported until 1923 by Furness Railway wagons, usually 2 plank opens with the slates stacked across the width in rows from either end, leaving a small gap in the middle where the men had stood to stack the slate. By 1934-39, 35% of output still went to Scotland, whilst 31% went to Barrow and district, and 10% each to Lancashire and to Yorkshire, where building remained slumped after the recession. Comparison of output with Wales Until 1831, Penryn output was actually less than Burlington, but then output in N Wales exploded with the industrial revolution. Welsh slate peaked in 1898, producing 65 tons for every ton at Burlington. Until 1939 the Welsh quarries were giants in production compared to Delabole, Burlington, Elterwater, Coniston, Honister, Ballachulish etc. By 1969 (the closure of Dinorwic) Wales was producing just 6.5 times what Burlington was producing. Hopefully this gives some likely proportions of traffic to various parts of the country from different slate producers. Finally, he also recounts a lost tradition that could make a lovely little cameo on a pre-grouping model – the bidding to a funeral. Before newspapers (and the reading of them) were as common, bidding was when two men went round the village to invite people to a funeral. The men were not near relatives but were rather friends of the bereaved, and they seemingly always worked in pairs, knocking on doors to break the news and invite people to attend the funeral. This was common still in Kirkby in 1914, but the last occurrence in the village was in 1925. I hope this is as helpful as I found it! All the best Neil

Was great to see it, and talk on Saturday. I did mention then about the idea of some sort of lifting FY to allow the viaduct line to actually be operational whilst not blocking the main lower FY - and having thought more about it since, having a passenger train permanently stuck at the signal on the viaduct does seem a shame given that electric units would have been buzzing backwards and forwards along such a line at almost dizzying frequency. Yes keep your proposed signal on the bridge, and use that to protect the lifting section when it is, err, lifted, with the shuttle train controlled by computer with the added interest of sometimes slowing for the signal? (Not sure if there's room back right for a two road traverser so you can switch between a couple of units, too?!) Looking forward to seeing this develop! Neil

I was there as a punter - my first Scaleforum since joining up and restarting modelling getting on for three years ago (and indeed the society's first actual one in that time after the virtual events held with the pandemic). Paul @Flymo749 was there as a committee member. I had to leave at 1330 yesterday (long drive home to Cumbria, where I had commitments in the evening) so I spent most of yesterday on a mad dash between @MarcD, @Brinkly on the wagon demo stand, and various traders, working out the best way to get P4 wheelsets inside the 3D printed axleguards etc of one of Marc's FR brake vans. (This is blown down from his 7mm model and there isn't room for a sprung/compensated pinpoint system. After numerous circuits, I have come home with a set of inside bearings from Dart Castings, and will try them with some Gibson wheels with the pinpoints cut off.) That is hilarious!

Frustratingly Stephen, a busy week last week meant I didn't have time to think to send you a message in advance of Scaleforum, despite having seen you were going. @Flymo749and myself as avid followers of this thread did talk about you yesterday, knowing you were planning on being there, but sadly as we wouldn't have recognised you, we probably passed in the halls without realising it... Argh!

Interesting - inside keyed track on the sidings (clearly visible in the foreground and actually in the siding that the wagons are standing on, although that is less obvious). That ever trustworthy (?) source Wikipedia says the GWR only took over the Bala and Festiniog Railway in 1910 which was the year Stephen says the distillery went out of business. So this is another minor line with inside keying.. All the best Neil

Thanks for that added detail Mike. I do wonder what noise (flange squeal) there was with a big 4-6-0 crawling round out of Bourne End towards Marlow at maximum 5mph (past the sign saying 10mph was permitted for engines of the 48xx class)?! My father was a regular on the proper "Marlow Donkey" back in the happier times, but I can only remember the BR blue "bubble car plus trailer" era on the branch, and the "basic" station at Marlow. I do (just about) remember the steam on the branch in 1973 for the centenary, with 6106 and Burton Agnes Hall going past the bottom of my old garden!