WFPettigrew

In which case how about Cockermouth, as the effective if not actual end of the M&C Derwent branch? Or are you after the multiplatformed splendour of Keswick for those times the Derwent services made it that far?! Either way, interesting prototypes! (And of course I could still be wrong, and you're going real magnum opus and doing Maryport...)

On the basis of those locos and the thread title, plus your moniker, Brigham Jn?

I have a couple of packs of this HMRS transfer sheet (as methfix) and would be very happy to trade MR lettering (or indeed LYR or any of the others) in return for the Furness Railway, M&C and C&W lot at the top right... EDIT - I HAVE NOW ARRANGED SWAPS OF BOTH PACKS. BUT... EVEN WITH THESE I IWLL BE BUYING MORE SHEETS AT SOME POINT AND ALWAYS HAPPY TO DO FURTHER SWAPS IN THE FUTURE... All the best Neil

We need an emojo for the appreciation of late Victorian and Edwardian moustaches....! And that's a nicely indecipherable PO next to it....

Ooh, thank you!

Oh it does - thats' very interesting for my CRA colleagues who are far greater minds than me on such matters. I will pass this on. Many thanks! Neil

Thanks Bill. Yes the normal unloading of ore at the Cumbrian ironworks (and further afield if ore was exported off the Furness system) was dropping the ore through the bottom doors into a holding bunker that then fed the blast furnaces. There were some FR hoppered ore wagons that appear NOT to have had bottom doors, with the ore to be taken only from the side doors - this is another area of research but could relate to uses of ore that were in smaller quantities (but not so small as to need bagged quantities). Suggestions that have been made are for the annealing of malleable iron castings, for use as a pigment, or in the manufacture of wrought iron in a puddling furnace (this latter not happening in the North West of England in the 20th century - nearest place to Furness was somewhere like Staffordshire) - but this is a wagonload of conjecture! And I agree the load here is ore - for the reasons you state. All the best Neil

Fair point! Ah, this is one of the cans of worms with Mr Rush! The diagram numbers he quotes, and indeed those of the British Railways list, bear little resemblance to the FR/LMS ones. Now, as I mentioned earlier, these diagrams are all an artificial construct rather than something that the FR would have used in day to day parlance when ordering up wagons to a particular goods yard for example, but it does get confusing - so one system has to be chosen above the other. Generally the FR/LMS diagram numbers are preferred by FR historians, being closer to the original. Yes the FR had a lot of 2 plank wagons - they were ideal for carrying both the slate that was one of the founding traffics on the railway that led to its creation in 1846 (along with iron ore), and they were also used for pig iron. They were also ideal for stone. Loaded with slate they would have been seen across the country: half the output of the Kirkby in Furness slate quarry went to Lancashire and Yorkshire, one quarter to Scotland, and the rest locally and further afield. Apart from the 10 FR Dia 7 (Rush 6) with a long (i.e. full length) side door that were picked up in 1906, the rest were all 19th century. Of these, FR Dia 10 (Rush 4 and numbering 100) and FR Dia 14 (Rush 2 and numbering 695) were unusual and possibly unique amongst pre-grouping railways in having central side doors. I think you're right Stephen that the wagons depicted do have side doors so would be one of the above diagrams (but not that they would therefore be Rush D3 - see below). It's very difficult to definitively tell Dia 10 and Dia 14 apart at distance: the Dia 10 was 15' over headstocks with 9' wheelbase, the Dia 14 was 17'5" long with a 9'6" wheelbase. (I might lean towards those in that photo being D10s as they look fairly short but at that angle and distance who can really tell with certainty?) Next up were the really plentiful type, the Dia 15 (Rush D3 numbering 1356 as you say) which were fast side wagons with no door, so not those in the Lindal photo. And finally there were the Dia 16 (Rush D5 numbering 30) which had a full length side door. Yes, going back to the Lindal B30 mystery wagon, something like the Birmingham RCW wagon is what I am thinking - a wagon hirer that affixed such a plate to the wagon to mark its ownership. As you say, so often things like running number plates, PO wagon registration plates, builders plates, etc. went on the solebar, but putting it on the side would perhaps have more clearly marked it as leased? It's just finding out who went for oval plate only, left hand side, no signwriting - or whether actually this is all a blind alley and there is another explanation?!

Thank you again! I agree this plate is too small (and the wagon doesn't and wouldn't have the hoppering as a coal wagon) but I do think this adds significant weight to the idea that the Lindal Moor wagon could have been owned by a Wigan company. And yes - here is the exception to prove the rule that coal wagons were smooth on the insides to make it easier to unload them! All the best Neil

Thanks. I was aware of the need for the self-contained buffers because any surgery to the frames to fit in the buffing spring would severely weaken them, but wasn't sure if the dumb buffers were simply cut back to the existing partial width headstock or not. Bob Rush did have the disadvantage of researching before the age of the internet. However he had the advantage that some who had remembered and worked on the FR (etc) were still alive. The trouble with this is the accuracy of memories and this may explain some of the random "facts". Plus his drawings are generally based on British Railways diagrams for ex Furness stock, which were likely based on the diagram sketches produced by the FR in its dying days so the LMS knew what they were getting (and some of these really were just sketches that a 7 year old could knock up). Sadly the FR's drawing office records have not survived. I will admit a good dollop of jealously when I look at what you have access to Stephen from the Midland...!! And we know now to only take the FR diagram drawings as an indication - of course what we really need are good quality photos, and the Furness didn't have an in-house photography department like say the LNWR had. Yes they did have a retained professional photography company in Sankeys, and the imminent release of the full Sankey collection onto the internet does hold out some hope that more can be learned from the back corners of some of these images. Ha, you see, reading all squillion pages of this thread has been good for my education, glad those are indeed D299s! South Cumbria had a particular preference for South Yorkshire coal for domestic use as well as industrial, despite then being (mostly) in Lancashire and with the West Cumberland mines much closer still, so it's no surprise to see Yorkshire colliery wagons. Without wanting to go down a rabbit hole discussing a photo that few others will have seen, what do you make of the furthest wagons, on the siding behind and beyond the D299s and the FR brakevan? All the best Neil

Aha, thank you for proving the WC&ICo did use cast plates! Though I agree that your rendition (which I know from your thread will be meticulously researched and accurately modelled) looks bigger than the mystery wagon (as well as it being on the left hand not right hand end). All the best Neil

Thanks Stephen. Yes it's at best an RCH 1887 wagon, none of this 20th century oversized stuff here! I'd spotted the likely self-contained buffers - and that prompts a question. When such buffers were fitted on a dumb buffer conversion, were they simply fitted to the base of the dumb buffers after the latter were cut off, or was a conventional full width headstock fitted? And yes I am a CRA member - and yes the Lindal ore depot photos and article were a treasure trove. I presume you spotted what I am fairly sure are the numerous D299s in the background? I have been helping/hindering Ron a bit with some of his research towards his hoped-for book on FR wagons. This photo is a fairly well-known one, and we have been trying to tie down the provenance of that wagon - hence the posting here. I have now gone through the entire Ince book, and there's not a single photo of a wagon with an oval plate in there, and given its location in Wigan, often supplying local collieries etc., I don't feel that has taken me any further forward! Hoping Penlan will remember where he saw them.....?! All the best Neil

Thanks Richard. That's a new one on me - I only remember seeing Wigan Coal and Iron Co wagons with a livery that included a five pointed star at either end of the side panels - for example as per the 4mm model by Oxford Rail. I have checked in the Watts book on the Ince Waggonworks, which has two pages on the Wigan Coal and Iron Co. Again, two variants of the star livery is all that's shown. But at the end of the article there is reference to some of the wagons, in the 1920s at least, being from the North Central Wagon Finance. I cannot find anything online about this latter company in terms of whether they leased out wagons (nothing on the Lightmoor index either) and whether if so they had oval plates on them? One interesting possible link or red herring - one of the other iron ore mines in Lindal (Bercune No. 2) was operated by the Wigan Coal and Iron Co from 1878 to 1902 before being taken over by Harrison Ainslie and Co, who were the operator of B30 pit where this picture was taken. The two Bercune pits and B30 were over a mile apart and in different Royalties, so this may just be a coincidence. All the best Neil

I wonder if I might pick the collective brains and wisdom on here please? (I know you've "done" PO wagons in the past... but do please boot me out into the Pre-Grouping forum if needed.) This wagon was photographed in c 1906 at B30 pit, the biggest iron ore mine on Lindal Moor, served by a mineral line linked to the Furness Railway. The B referred to the Duke of Buccleugh who owned the Royalty for mining in that area. The wagon has both side doors and hoppering (which suggests but doesn't guarantee a bottom door - however there are visible what could be one of the "monkey tails" used to open such a door, just below the solebar). Of interest is that the end stanchions have been extended downwards to provide hanging buffers for chauldron wagons, which were in use in the West Cumberland area until 1914, and rather than just using the end stanchion, this has been widened from the headstock down with a second piece of wood, which has been given a distinctive curved top. The wagon does not carry any discernable markings other than the tare weight. However it does have an oval plaque on the upper left bodyside, and just beyond the plaque there is something roughly square which is either white, or is shiny and so is reflecting the sunlight (which is hitting the near wagon side roughly squarely on, as seen by the shadow of the worker which means this was a mid-late afternoon shot). Does anyone know whose wagon this might be? It's unlikely to be a Furness Railway one - they were painted with "F R" on the sides, although this could be allowed to wear to the point that all that was left was a dark trace of the lettering (as seen in the background), and they didn't as far as we know have wagons with curved ends, as seen here. One option is a private owner, but typically they would have been proclaiming their ownership in very large letters, so perhaps this is a wagon owned by a hire company? The Furness Railway did hire in wagons due to the explosion of ore traffic to local ironworks during the Great War, but we are uncertain about whether it happened in the first six or seven years of the 20th century. In case anyone is worried about copyright, this is a scan of a promotional leaflet for the mine produced in 1907; the scan is part of the collection of Ron Allison of the Cumbrian Railways Association who has given full permission for this to be used here. So, if anyone recognises that oval plate, or has any other ideas, I'd love to hear from you. All the best Neil

Thanks Kevin.. I had done that but think some emails got lost in the ether. But having registered, I got an email verification of my order last night.

Yes, I do need to practice. A lot. But reading all of this is giving me the mojo to have a proper go at it! Yes I think it was those - either that or the YouTube rip offs of the DVDs presented by Tony Wright. But I agree, there is much to be learned simply by watching someone else - not last for me, just that visible evidence that yes it can be done! All the best Neil

Chas, just to echo what everyone else is saying - you are achieving astonishingly good results. I have been, on and off and mostly off, been trying to sort out the lining of a Ratio Midland clerestory. I tried doing it "the other way" to your/Ian Rathbone method - putting on the black over the crimson lake, with a view to then using the bow pen to lay a hair's width line of yellow on either edge of the black. But a combination of a lack of skill, on top of hamfistedness, and, did I mention, not much skill, meant it all went awry. Reading your recent posts, and it did strike me that doing the yellows first might also allow the yellow to be slightly broader (and possibly therefore easier), which is then partly overlaid with black. I vaguely recall seeing Ian Rathbone doing something of this sort with BR black loco lining on a video but I may be mistaken. So I am now thinking about paint stripper and starting again... All the best Neil

Hi Bill Further to the emails I sent regarding Furness Railway carriages on the pdf lists, I have now opened an account, but cannot see how to then actually order something which doesn't appear on the main site? All the best Neil

Are they white lines, or just light reflecting off the bead/edge of the join? You seem to be pushing the limits of what is possible in 4mm already, it's amazing what you're achieving. All the best Neil

Belatedly adding to this - traffic exchanged between the MR and FR was done at Carnforth, on the now removed lines between the Furness and Midland Joint, and the FR at the appropriately named Furness and Midland Junction. While the FR jointly owned the F&MJt the only trains it operated on the Carnforth-Wennington line were ballast trains as part of its responsiblity to maintain the track - all trains were run by the MR, so locos were exchanged at Carnforth. All the best Neil

Stephen, I am quoting a fellow member in the Cumbrian Railways Association here, as I don't have the book in question, but he says The LMS Wagon (Essery and Morgan) states that the LMS allocated the numbers 285000 to 291999 inclusive for the wagons of the former Furness Railway. However, it may not be as simple as this. Firstly, this listing provides 7000 numbers to the FR fleet, but we know from the statistical returns that in 1920 the FR had a total of 7796 wagons (7368 in revenue service, the rest service vehicles including loco coal wagons, ballast wagons etc.) which is a whole 10% higher than the supposed allocation by the LMS made just a couple of years later (given that these figures were submitted in 1921). Secondly, the book I understand does not make any mention of the former wagons of another significant Cumbrian constituent - the Maryport and Carlisle Railway. So - I am not sure of the reliability of the figures quoted by Essery and Morgan. At very least there appears to be some omissions. This is another of (many) mysteries of the FR wagon fleet. I am not sure this is at all helpful, really, but I guess at least saying "we don't really know for sure" is a position statement, and it might prompt someone to step forward with more information?! All the best Neil

And the Cumbrian Railways Association is a fount of wisdom* on the Maryport and Carlisle. Good luck - if it's half as good as your rolling stock so far it is going to be quite special! All the best Neil

To add to what Jamie said... The clack valve is the non-return valve to stop the boiler emptying itself via the injector at the other end of the feed pipe. All injector set ups, both live steam and exhaust steam driven, need clacks for this reason - otherwise steam will simply pass through the injector "backwards" as it were, and exhaust to atmosphere out the water drain pipe. In the old days the clacks tended to be on the side of the boiler, later it dawned that putting the incoming cold water into the top of the boiler was more efficient/less shocking to the boiler, and so top feeds became commonplace. Often the feed pipes in later years were fed inside the boiler cladding, I am guessing to preheat the feed water rather than for aesthetic reasons, so would not be visble from the outside. The device on the smokebox you mention sounds like the ejector, the device to draw air out of the brake pipes to create the vacuum. Hope this helps. Neil

Thank you - yes that makes perfect sense. I think the nub of this is that the number gives a "not before" date isn't it? One other observation... having read all 177 pages of this thread more than once, I think you are underselling your research as "starting to scratch the surface"! All the best Neil

Stephen, forgive my ignorance, but is it likely to be an '87 build, if as you said earlier this number came up as the next available one in 83, i.e. just 4 years previously? I am just wondering on the mechanism that would allow that to happen? all the best Neil