WFPettigrew

The other factor would be the price of iron. Just as today, the price could and can vary wildy. Taking a geographical side step, but historians have charted the periods of investment and expansion of the Furness Railway as being directly linked to periods of boom in the iron industry (due to the FR carrying the very rich haematite ore needed for the best iron and steel making in Victorian times - and the pig iron and finished iron and steel products from the numerous works in the area). When the iron market was in a slump, some furnaces came out of blast, reducing supply and so putting the price up. More recently the heritage railway charity that I am a trustee for purchased a new hefty piece of threaded bar for a locomtive screw reverser. The quoted price was only honoured for the day of the quotation. Not even one week.. So it might simpy have been better value to build with wood. All the best Neil

Yes they did have hanging buffers to work with chauldron wagons in West Cumberland, but this would not present a massive modelling challenge. This is the "small" thumbnail off the HMRS website of No 158. For @Compound2632 you can see the hanging buffers worked with the end door no problem. Here is another one - No 129, which was also Scottish built (Hurst Nelson) but had a drop side door. This is a crop from a photo in the Cumbrian Railways Association collection, shared here for research purposes because unlike the HMRS one, this is a bigger picture. Hope this is helpful. Best wishes Neil

Thanks Mike - that will be useful I think - and, as Stephen says, not just for Scottish wagons. The Barrow coal factor TF Butler bought some wagons from Pickerings in 1897, including its No. 158, a 7-plank 10-ton open wagon, one end door and two cupboard-type side doors, tare 6-16-0. It was inscribed “Empty to Barrow Docks, Repairs Lindal Ore Depot, Furness Railway”. See HMRS RYP 166. I am not sure that the forthcoming 7 plank kit will be quite the right size for this one, but we shall see. And one that @jamie92208 mentioned on here before because it was photographed outside Beadman's in Keighley - the Swarthmoor and Ulverston Coop had some cupboard door wagons. All the best Neil

Thanks Stephen, that was in part what I was thinking off in terms of those more affluent folk who took their horses with them, as I noted those details down when you mentioned this elsewhere on RMWeb previously. I would slightly take issue with "country cottage" - Holker Hall is a stately home in its own right, and it was the preferred main residence of the 7th Duke William Cavendish, who disliked Chatsworth and so only went there when he had to - so this was actually him "coming home" for Christmas with the family. In my planned skewing of history, the line that was built by the Ulverstone and Lancaster Railway (between Ulverston without an E and Carnforth, not Lancaster) was blocked by the Admiralty due to the loss of shipping access to the ports of Greenodd and Sandside for Kendal (something that nearly happened) and the rival proposal for a line from Ulverston east, via Newby Bridge, to a junction with the Lancaster and Carlisle at Milnthorpe won approval (this was twice proposed with Bills to Parliament). In that skewed history, there would be a branch line from Newby Bridge down through Cartmel to Cark/Flookburgh and Grange-over-Sands. I am planning to model Cartmel, but there would be Ducal traffic going through to Cark - by 1914 the 9th Duke was enforcibly resident at Chatsworth as part of wangling around death duties, but he would have regularly visited his former home of Holker Hall, now the seat of his younger brother Lord Cavendish. Sorry Dave - that's rather a diversion from your ever lovely Scottish pregrouping modelling.

I am starting to look into this because my intended layout would serve a racecourse, although Cartmel racecourse in 1914 was the preserve of "gentleman racers" rather than pro jockeys, so the catchment would be somewhat different. So I think the short answer is that it depends on the course, and the radius from which it drew horses. Ultimately I think simple economics would be at play for the pro stables: a stud in Newmarket or Lambourn say would only send horses to the other end of the country, York or Doncaster for example, if it was worth their while, i.e. that they would hope to get a return on the investment in railway horsebox fees, time, staff away etc. I will be going to the archives to look at old newspaper articles etc to try and work out the radius for Cartmel, and therefore which horseboxes beyond the Furness I can have, but I am very hopeful of LNWR and MR, and probably LYR. The other thing to remember is that there was a lot of horse traffic that had nothing to do with racing: the movement of working horses, sales, the wealthier taking their horse with them when they and their household went away, etc. All the best Neil

Thank you Bill, that would be of interest. I hope the surgery goes well.

Are you meaning your 3D printed the buffer heads and rams, with your printed spring mechanism, or all of this plus the buffer guides as well, Bill? My answer would be yes please to some 3D printed heads/rams/springs. I would like some RCH 1887/1903 wagon buffers please.

Indeed, even when knowing he was ill, his passing leaves a big hole. I first met him to record an interview when they were doing the initial pilot for the Hairy Bikers, and then onwards regularly until he moved away from his native Barrow a few years after he did Strictly. He was never anything but generous, kind, funny and always with a great anecdote up his sleeve. In fact, just as he was on the TV. And the food he cooked for me was always delicious. I know so many people locally around here who have lost a real friend. Thinking about Lili and the family, and Si. RIP Dave.

Thanks Andy, I am currently on with my first of yours, your first Chas Roberts one, purchased at Scaleforum last September. (Actually just on with the Brassmasters chassis, your bit is not surprisingly all ready to go!) Looking forward to hearing what new products you are going to come up with! I might have a suggestion or two for you once I have tied down as best I can do the dimensions of a couple of Old Silkstone wagons spotted in Furness territory in about 1910...

Hopefully OFSTED will be treading slightly more carefully in the Reading area these days 😔

Further to all this, for the sake of completeness, the HMRS article also includes 3 wagons to the gloriously named Millom coal merchant Tas. Stromix, on the Furness as well. One observation I would somewhat dispute in the article - it states the customers must have been industrialists wanting top quality steam raising coal, but actually there is good evidence, photographic and otherwise, that the householders of the Furness area wanted Yorkshire coal to burn on their home fires: for example the lovely single wagon of the Lower Holker Cooperative Society, a Hurst Nelson 5 plank product with rounded ends, was lettered "Empty to Glasshoughton". (This is another one that I hope to get some POWsides transfers made up for.) Having now seen the diagonal lettering layout in the article, I am even more keen to get one or more of these. Right, I will get over to the NRM as soon as I can - maybe in a couple of weeks' time - and will get the Chas Roberts order book details of both dimensions and livery photographed and noted. All the best Neil

Thanks Jamie - would there be any chance of you scanning and PM'ing a copy please if you had a moment? Not at all urgent... Edit: I now have a scan, thank you @mikeallerton Yes I would be interested - though I guess it depends quite how the lettering was done for the various local dealers on the S&C and Furness. If you did the artwork, presumably that would bring the total cost down as well? Definitely worth a trip to the NRM to look. Since my post this morning I have been told the GCR PO registers do not contain dimensional details, unlike those of the Midland. (Cue @Compound2632 restating a Derby is better than everyone else mantra..!) So there is less to be gained from them than I hoped for the Old Silkstone wagons, but still trying to find them for dating purposes. As for a kit - it again depends on exactly what size the originals were. There are Glos 5 planks from Slaters in 7mm and 4mm though the latter is not available from Slaters currently - I think POWsides may have stock - but this has the internal diagonal washer plates not external as was almost definitely used by Chas Roberts. In 4mm Cambrian also do the 5 plank from Hurst Nelson which was 15' long. I am not sure what other 7mm suppliers there might be. Best wishes Neil

Further to this, I have been sent the following by the Cumbrian Railways Association historian and author Dave Richardson, who pulled together the following from a hunt through trade directories looking for coal merchants covering the area served by the Furness mainline between Barrow and Carnforth. He says L Ashcroft will be Mrs Lawrence Ashcroft whose coal merchants business is listed in trade directories covering Barrow in 1901 (Hindpool Rd), 1905, 1911, 1913 but not 1924. R Townson will be Richard Townson of 250 Duke St Barrow. His coal merchants business is listed in the relevant trade directories for 1901 (Hindpool Rd), 1905, 1911, 1913 (Hindpool Rd) 1924 and 1931. He says there was nothing in the trade directories mentioning R Laycock or H Robinson and Sons - which does perhaps further fuel the suggestion they were operating as factors here, dealing business to business rather than selling to the general public. Best wishes Neil

Yep very interested, thank you Jamie! Richard Townson I was aware of - thanks to a list of PO traders drawn up by the CRA Chairman @SteamAle - though that list has him as a merchant in Ulverston rather than Barrow. (Small difference of only 9 miles and from a personal point of view, Ulverston is more useful than Barrow for my intended layout depicting a might-have-been FR branch through Cartmel.) But Ashcroft is a new name. Putting all this together, would I be right in thinking then that the Laycock 25-39 were ordered by Robinson but lettered for Laycock - and in the case of 27-33 were additionally marked for delivery to the varius small coal merchants - so in effect Laycock (or Robinson but in the guise of Laycock?!) was acting as a coal factor here? I am feeling a trip to the NRM's Search Engine could be in order (I already could do with looking at the GCR PO registers there to try and track down some Old Silkstone wagons spotted at Lindal Ore Sidings) - but if you know the answer to this already... I will see if I can get hold of a copy of that article. Laycock does not feature in the POWsides catalogue. Many thanks for all this. All the best Neil

Many thanks Marc.

Thanks. Would be keen to see a source for this, as it would help inform the section about lowside opens in the planned book on FR wagons (not by me, but I am helping to draw information together).

Was this a height restriction Marc? If so, where was it? Nothing on the OS map to indicate a problem as there weren't any low bridges on the slate wharf branch? All the best Neil

There is certainly photographic evidence of side door two planks on the Furness being used for slate, handy as you can walk into the wagon with an armful of slates without having to step over the side, as well as the FR's fast side two planks being used for slate. The Furness did also have a fleet of drop side two planks, I haven't seen a photo of one loaded with slate but that's not too say it didn't happen (absence of evidence but being evidence is absence etc.)

I can recommend it, it's very therapeutic. And being Welsh slate you don't have to worry about a myriad of different lengths and widths, and dressed top corners... My effort made it to LRY territory andKerrinhead earlier this week.

I think you're right. on all of this - larger slates at the near end too. So the way the Furness transported slate stacked transversely might not have been such an outlier after all! I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous posts and calculations upthread about slate density, which might help confirm this is slate rather than brick by the size of the gap, if you know the maximum load of that Cambrian wagon. All the best Neil

I agree with the idea of being able to get into the main platform from the down line, and anyway you said your one-engine-in-steam set up would require this. So a facing crossover is needed somewhere - from what Nick says, you can have that off towards the countryside (even off scene if needed). That would obviously require FPL and a crossover lever, plus a second home signal - and you would also need an FPL on the loco release crossover between the two platforms. The only other points I would make are that the levers 16-20 ideally need reversing - so that the P1 starter is 20 rather than 16, and with the others "inside". I like the idea of the cluster of red levers including the P2 starter in the middle of the frame - that was certainly typical of some frames (possibly including Saxby and Farmer ones) and visually it breaks things up. And depending on the distance from the box to the loco release crossover, it might not have been possible to control that direct from the box due to the limit on rodding runs. In addition it might not be possible to see from the box when it was the right time to change the points. A solution here would be a lever in the box to release a ground frame operated by the loco crew but again I don't know if that was S&F/Brighton practice. All the best Neil

Well known for its Epiphany Carols service, beginning with a rousing rendition of "We Free Kings"...

LNWR D33 roof door van, taken on the "other" side without the roof door? Oops. Sorry. Yes this is a LNWR thread... 😉

According to "LNWR Liveries" (HMRS) the diamonds were "apparently discontinued soon after A.F. Trevithick took over as wagon superintendent at Earlestown in 1910." Quite when is a bit unclear - but the book says that by an official photo dated October 1911 the diamonds had definitely gone. From this I had always taken the beginning of the "no diamonds" livery as being from sometime in 1911. But have I got this wrong?

Mike Thank you for the vote of confidence, but actually decent photos of the key bit of the D38 FR horseboxes are not exactly plentiful. One photo that I admit is more helpful to my 1914 era than your 19th century one is this: Embedded image from the Sankey Archive (c) Cumbria Archives. This is Ulverston station no earlier than 1911. It might be post war - the stored Lake Side branch train in its siding beyond the double-sided platform features a further vehicle which is all over blue - it could be a passenger carriage in the post war all over blue livery but equally it could be a passenger brake van in which case the 1911 date would still work. Peeping out from the old East box is a D38 horsebox. Note that by this time at least, the panels at the ends appear to be painted the same as the bodyside. Also note that at some point secondary suspension has been added to the spring hangers. But quite how things were back in your day.....!?! All the best Neil