thegreenhowards

As the guinea pig for the next couple of days, I hope I'm not jumping into too deep an end! I'll be delighted to keep people posted on progress, and post pictures of the ongoing build after my visit. I've built a fair few kits before, but never had any success with the mechanism, so that is the main blockage I need to conquer with 'sir's' help. Fingers crossed

I think they make reasonable donor vehicles. For example for this d.194/5 pair. OK I know I need to replace the couplings, and maybe work on some underframe detail!

I don't think the final loco will be of a high enough standard for a 'how to' article, but I could do something on the choice and fitting of the LYR 2-4-2 chassis. I started it best part of a year ago, so I'll have to rack my brain cells to remember the details. Watch this space! Andy

I can also confirm that LB runs very well at low speeds as well as the more usual high speeds. Whilst my favourite part of the operating session was drooling at the procession of prototypical formations on the expresses, the best operating experience was running the pick up freight across the run of slips and shunting the freight yard. I have to say though that all that twiddling with rotary switches was far more complicated than just tapping the loco number into my DCC controller! (Imagine tongue in cheek emoticon here!) Andy

Bringing the subject back to modelling, I attach some photos of my weekend's progress. This is a SE Finecast C12 body built onto a Bachmann LYR 2-4-2 motor unit which has the correct wheel diameter and wheelbase for the drivers. The Bachmann wheels were also right for the bogie, and I've used a Markits axle for the rear truck. This was my first attempt at soldering together a white metal loco kit and I was pleased at how easily it went together - definitely more fun and quicker than glue. The casting wasn't perfect though and needed quite a bit of filler. Some smoothing down and replacement of beading is still required. As Tony said earlier, I am visiting him next week to learn how to do this properly, and in particular, how to build the clever bit, so will hopefully be the last loco for which I need to use a RTR chassis (although I might still do so on occasion for cost/ convenience reasons). All the best Andy

One more opinion on the analogue vs digital debate. I went DCC a couple of years ago and have enjoyed the process of chipping my locos. Also, it's certainly meant wiring my new layout is much easier. Having said that, for a 'roundy roundy' layout like Little Bytham (and mine in the main), the benefits are limited, but on any layout with significant amounts of shunting, I think you'd be mad to start out in DC today. Although obviously, if you've already built a DC layout with a large stable of locos that's a different matter. I don't think the running is significantly better or worse. Some locos definitely perform better at very low speed on DCC, while others have a significantly lower top speed which can be annoying (if more realistic!). I find stayalive capacitors useful on short wheelbase locos, particularly on dead frogs (I know I shouldn't have any, but I will until Peco do electrofrog slips in code 100). I have had one motor blow out (on Little Bytham as catalogued on this forum before), but I think this was due to the significantly more than 12V in Tony's wires! I never had this sort of problem when running DCC locos on DCC layouts. I have never experienced any problems such as random movements, or refusing to accept addresses. I find that if one follows the instructions, the system behaves well, but I use NCE, which I suspect is more stable than some other systems. For me the clincher is sound, particularly diesel sound. Yes, it can get annoying, but it really brings the models to life, and makes the operation much more fun. Listening to the Napiers fire up on my namesake is heaven! Having said this, each to his own. Andy PS RMWeb 'ate' my first attempt at responding to this debate last night when I tried to add emoticons. I wonder whether it's DC or DCC powered!!!

Hello Andrew, I plan to run the rake in both 1957 and 1958 format, i.e. all in maroon, but with and without the buffet car. So far, I have all the etches and an almost finished FK (with Ladies waiting room) which will initially go into a 1960s Flying Scotsman rake until the other coaches are ready. In the interests of getting something running I'll probably start with the 1958 formation, so the buffet car and SK with ladies waiting room will wait until the end. Andy

I have one on the way, but its behind the Aberdonian in the queue, so don't hold your breath! Southern Pride sides, but I haven't bought all the donors yet, as I'm hoping the price will come down when the new Bachmann Thompson's arrive! Andy

That Gresley brake at the front looks interesting - is that a '1' on the door and curtains in the windows? If so, I don't think I've ever seen a first class brake before. Can we have a closer look?

Morning Tony, I've just finished reading your Deltic bookazine. A very enjoyable read with captions which are much more informative than the usual. One compliant though, I had to read to page 53 before I came across a picture of my machine - number 8. Good news on the A2/2. I will email you with some dates. Regards Andy

Hello Tony, With this category, do you mean on the same train, or on different trains on the same layout? Personally, while I admire the discipline of, for example, LB and PN sticking rigidly to a very short timeframe, I enjoy the variety that comes from allowing a little flexibility in timescales, providing that each train is internally consistent (preferably from the carriage workings and backed up by a photograph). So, I feel that I can get away with a blue Pacific on crimson and cream stock rubbing shoulders with a Deltic on maroon stock, provided each train is correctly modelled in its entirety. Provided it's explained properly, I think this gives a flavour of the march of history on the prototype that is being modelled. Having said that, it would grate if an HST made an appearance on the same layout, so it's clearly subjective! Andy

Morning Andrew, I'm sure I've read somewhere that it was generally a roller bearing A1 on a round trip to/from Newcastle. But I can't remember where! I suspect that it would have changed at Grantham at some periods in the 1950s. Perversely loco diagrams seem more difficult to find than carriage workings, so I tend to rely on photos for the class of engine. Yes the SLFs are Kirk on Hornby, more brutal than cunning I think! The sides are still available from Coopercraft, but not much else! The LSGC overnights look like interesting trains, but they were tough on the GC - no berths! Regards Andy

Evening Andrew, One of these you mean?! I built these as part of the other sleeper train that I intend to model - The Car Sleeper Limited, which is now just waiting for a new Bachmann BSK to finish it off. Bizarre though this may seem, I think the photos are consistent with the carriage workings! I only have Summer 1956 rather than '55 version, but this shows a different formation during July and August with the Fort William portion running as a separate train and a convertible SLT added behind the BG on the Aberdonian. This is consistent with the picture on p162 dated August '55. The June '55 picture on p161 has a Thompson sleeper as the second vehicle as per the normal booked formation. By this stage the convertible SLT's were generally used as peak strengtheners. I suppose it's not that surprising that many pictures show the SLT at the front as this happened during the Summer holidays when photographers would have been more likely to be active, and it would only be possible to photograph the train in daylight during the Summer months. My current layout is a fictitious location supposed to be somewhere near Welwyn viaduct with a timetable based around the services which would have run through there during the late afternoon and early evening. However, my stock building is focussed on what will be my retirement project - building a scale(ish) model of Kings Cross station. For haulage, I intend to try a Bachmann A1, which I think will cope (with some wheel slip) on my flat layout. I can currently get a well weighted one to haul 14 free rolling coaches. I think it should be one of the roller bearing variety which seemed to be very common on the Aberdonian, but that will have to wait for me to get the time to build a kit. Plan B would be to use my ex John Houlden A2/1, which I'm sure will haul it easily. Which overnight trains are you modelling? Do these run on LSGC?

Thanks Both, Sounds like the perfect solution and they also have the D.11 Restaurant Car in case I ever get round to building that! I'd still love to see a photo of a d.161/2 should any come to light, if only to check that they are not a figment of the carriage workings imagination! Andy

Andrew, My understanding is that the Isinglass drawings only have the one side shown, similar to the official LNER drawings which I already have courtesy of Steve Banks' article: http://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/262-the-aberdonian I based the Kirk cut and shut that I showed in my original post on the Aberdonian on those drawings, but it is the other side of the coaches that I need to see. Would the Isinglass drawings show the other side? Andy

Thanks, nice pictures. E1676 was a d227 66'6" SLF similar to the d.157s but with different spacing on the windows - and therefore more difficult to bash from Kirk kits!

Thanks for the link. There's a brief description of the formation on page 5 and a drawing in the appendix on the final page. From what I can see the formation bore little resemblance to the formation as described in the carriage workings. The crashed train seems to be MK1 BSK x 2 Mk 1 SK Mk 1 BCK or BSO Thompson BCK Mk 1 SK X 3 Indescriminate Thompson 2 X Thompson BG So at most one sleeping car and definitely no Gresleys ( the non mk 1s are described as being built in 1948). It was also described as leaving at 7.10pm from Aberdeen whereas it should have left at 6.55pm on a Sunday evening. 7.10pm is the weekday timing. I therefore wonder whether the train was running in two portions on this night- perhaps extra demand returning after Hogmanay given the date of 7th Jan? So an interesting piece of deciphering, but unfortunately of little use for my Gresley twin!

Thanks Andrew, The exchange on the Aberdeen twins rang a bell, and I found a section on their workings in Robert Carroll's article on the post war use of the streamlined stock which is an excellent resource. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7wNtUp2bp_eUy03M3Y4aWc2alE/view There seem to have been three diagrams for the BTO/RT pairs working out of Edinburgh. One to Newcastle and back, and two to Aberdeen and back including the one photographed which worked the 1000 from Edinburgh and then back on the Aberdonian. Interesting that the southbound working justified a twin, while northbound, with a Fort William portion as well, only a single RU was used. I'm modelling the Kings Cross end of the line, so sadly no justicfication for me. All the carriage workings I have seen which range from Summer 1952 until Winter 56/7 show the SLC twin in the Aberdonian. I believe it was ever present from about 1933. As discussed it switched to the unnamed departure in the same slot in 1957, and had disappeared completely by Summer 1958. Good prompt on the Welwyn Garden City accident, but the online pictures I have found so far are not clear enough to make out carriage details. I will search some books in due course. The d.95 and d.109 61'6" Convertible SLT's had toilet windows outboard of the end vestibule doors. I'm not immediately aware of any others. Regards Andy

Andrew, Wow, they look superb! I didn't realise that the Coronation stock appeared post war in the blue and silver livery! The Aberdonian had a wobble in 1957/8. It moved much later in the evening with a 1015 departure and a very different formation. However there was still a sleeper train in the old slot departing slightly later at 1945. It still had the d.161/2, but they were the only sleepers for Aberdeen. The Fort William portion remained unchanged except that it had the later (1937?) SLC rather than a d.20 and ran in the 1945 train with the RU still attached to the back. The Aberdonian itself became sleeper only and there was no need for the RU because it left so late. I assume that this didn't work because in September 1958 the Aberdonian switched back to its earlier departure time (now 1930) and regained the RU. This train had the Thompsons and twin SLF that you mention, the d.161/2 disappears at this point, probably withdrawn. The later 1015 train still ran in 1958/9, but now conveyed seated accommodation as well. Of course all this is based on the carriage workings. What we really need are some photos to confirm what ran in practice! Andy

Thanks Andrew, My modelling is not to the same standard as yours, but I love researching train formations and trying to replicate them (i.e. your rule 1!). Anything you can dig out, especially photos, would be much appreciated. The D.11 is shown in the carriage workings: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7wNtUp2bp_eT2xxclRXWkh1MzQ/view It is also mentioned as being part of the post war train in the Banks/ Carter book. I think the logic was that because this train left so early, a restaurant service was required for evening meals. The D.11 has 30 seats rather than the 18 of a D.10C RF with the extra seats coming at the expense of the attendant's compartment and a smaller pantry. The 30 seats seemed to allow it to function alone rather than needing an SO to provide extra seating. Regards Andy

Thanks Jonathan, I used the number of berths to identify the sleeper types, but, as you say, not possible for the BGs. No type numbers, but both are listed as 29 tons which seems to fit with a Gresley variant. However, I've definitely seen pictures with a Thompson one at the front. I can't lay my hands on the weight of a Thompson BG at present. I suspect, but with no real evidence, that they would have been used interchangeably. Andy

Andrew, Yes I am intending to build the full Aberdonian as at 1956/7 - I like a challenge! It left pretty early (1900) so could reasonably be mixed in with daytime trains and in daylight, so I don't need a full layout of overnight trains. It's only when trying to put together such an overnight service that one realises how limited the current RTR range is. I list below the full service as at 1956/7 (thanks to Robert Carroll's carriage workings). BG (Thompson), Mk1 BTK(4), Thompson SLTTP, 61'6" Gresley SLF (as Hornby), 66' Gresley SLF (d.157), Twin SLC (d.161/2), Mk1 CK, 2* Mk1 TK, BG (Gresley or Thompson?), SLC (D.20 Gresley), Mk1 BCK, Gresley D.11 RU. The RU on the end was detached at York, and the SLC and BCK next to it were for Fort William with the rest being for Aberdeen. Of the 14 coach train, six need to be kit built. I have completed the d.157 (see photo below) based on Kirk kits as in Steve Banks' web site write up. The D.20 (Mousa sides on Hornby) is nearly finished and the SLTTP is well on the way. The D.11 restaurant car is a problem as I don't know of any kit for this. I may have a go at bashing a Kirk kit, but for the time being I will use a D.10C. Thanks for your photos, they seem to show a pair of D.157 66ft Gresley sleeping cars - lovely coaches! Andy

Thanks Jonathan, Steve Bank's website is indeed a great resource, and has helped me get this far. I hadn't heard about the Whitehouse twins, so thanks for that tip - I'll follow that up. Andy

Changing the subject somewhat from the erudite discussion of the finer points of English grammar, here is a picture and question about my latest modelling project. I am trying to produce a d.161/162 twin SLC of which only two were built in 1932. While a slightly esoteric subject, they were more or less ever present in the Aberdonian formation from the 1930s to the late 1950s, and I'm trying to model this train in full. AFAIK there is no kit of this diagram, so I'm trying to kit bash Kirk sleeper kits to form the sides. I think I've made reasonable progress with one side as in the first two photos below (although they will need a lot of fettling). I'm stuck with the other side as the diagram doesn't show this side and the only photo I can find (p115 of Gresley's Coaches by Harris) is also of the same side as shown in the diagram. I've had a go at producing diagrams of the other side (based on the window spacing and educated guesswork) which I've shown in the bottom photo below. I'd welcome any comments on my attempted diagrams, or better still, does anyone know of any pictures of 'the other side'? Thanks Andy

Here are some photos of my latest completed project. A Thompson PV RFO which I'm going to use in my 'West Riding' formation. Built from Southern Pride sides (which I found excellent) on a Bachmann donor with MJT bogies. It will nicely complement the ex Gamston Bank articulated twin that I bought through Tony. I now need a BSO/SO twin to complete the formation, which will be a challenge to source! I have one question for the experts on here which concerns the upper lining. I have placed mine directly above the windows leaving a narrow cream band above. This is consistent with many photos I have seen (e.g. Harris blue book p105). However, I note that on the new Bachmann coaches, the BTK has no lining, while the TK has lining right at the top against the cornice. Also, I note that the PV stock on the Elizabethan, had a crimson band above the lining. While my coach was originally built for the non stop (pre-Elizabethan era) it was removed very early, I assume when it was still in teak livery, and therefore would probably not have acquired the crimson band (again pure assumption). Can anyone tell me definitely how the lining would have looked on this coach in the early to mid fifties?