thegreenhowards

Thanks for the link. There's a brief description of the formation on page 5 and a drawing in the appendix on the final page. From what I can see the formation bore little resemblance to the formation as described in the carriage workings. The crashed train seems to be MK1 BSK x 2 Mk 1 SK Mk 1 BCK or BSO Thompson BCK Mk 1 SK X 3 Indescriminate Thompson 2 X Thompson BG So at most one sleeping car and definitely no Gresleys ( the non mk 1s are described as being built in 1948). It was also described as leaving at 7.10pm from Aberdeen whereas it should have left at 6.55pm on a Sunday evening. 7.10pm is the weekday timing. I therefore wonder whether the train was running in two portions on this night- perhaps extra demand returning after Hogmanay given the date of 7th Jan? So an interesting piece of deciphering, but unfortunately of little use for my Gresley twin!

Thanks Andrew, The exchange on the Aberdeen twins rang a bell, and I found a section on their workings in Robert Carroll's article on the post war use of the streamlined stock which is an excellent resource. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7wNtUp2bp_eUy03M3Y4aWc2alE/view There seem to have been three diagrams for the BTO/RT pairs working out of Edinburgh. One to Newcastle and back, and two to Aberdeen and back including the one photographed which worked the 1000 from Edinburgh and then back on the Aberdonian. Interesting that the southbound working justified a twin, while northbound, with a Fort William portion as well, only a single RU was used. I'm modelling the Kings Cross end of the line, so sadly no justicfication for me. All the carriage workings I have seen which range from Summer 1952 until Winter 56/7 show the SLC twin in the Aberdonian. I believe it was ever present from about 1933. As discussed it switched to the unnamed departure in the same slot in 1957, and had disappeared completely by Summer 1958. Good prompt on the Welwyn Garden City accident, but the online pictures I have found so far are not clear enough to make out carriage details. I will search some books in due course. The d.95 and d.109 61'6" Convertible SLT's had toilet windows outboard of the end vestibule doors. I'm not immediately aware of any others. Regards Andy

Andrew, Wow, they look superb! I didn't realise that the Coronation stock appeared post war in the blue and silver livery! The Aberdonian had a wobble in 1957/8. It moved much later in the evening with a 1015 departure and a very different formation. However there was still a sleeper train in the old slot departing slightly later at 1945. It still had the d.161/2, but they were the only sleepers for Aberdeen. The Fort William portion remained unchanged except that it had the later (1937?) SLC rather than a d.20 and ran in the 1945 train with the RU still attached to the back. The Aberdonian itself became sleeper only and there was no need for the RU because it left so late. I assume that this didn't work because in September 1958 the Aberdonian switched back to its earlier departure time (now 1930) and regained the RU. This train had the Thompsons and twin SLF that you mention, the d.161/2 disappears at this point, probably withdrawn. The later 1015 train still ran in 1958/9, but now conveyed seated accommodation as well. Of course all this is based on the carriage workings. What we really need are some photos to confirm what ran in practice! Andy

Thanks Andrew, My modelling is not to the same standard as yours, but I love researching train formations and trying to replicate them (i.e. your rule 1!). Anything you can dig out, especially photos, would be much appreciated. The D.11 is shown in the carriage workings: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7wNtUp2bp_eT2xxclRXWkh1MzQ/view It is also mentioned as being part of the post war train in the Banks/ Carter book. I think the logic was that because this train left so early, a restaurant service was required for evening meals. The D.11 has 30 seats rather than the 18 of a D.10C RF with the extra seats coming at the expense of the attendant's compartment and a smaller pantry. The 30 seats seemed to allow it to function alone rather than needing an SO to provide extra seating. Regards Andy

Thanks Jonathan, I used the number of berths to identify the sleeper types, but, as you say, not possible for the BGs. No type numbers, but both are listed as 29 tons which seems to fit with a Gresley variant. However, I've definitely seen pictures with a Thompson one at the front. I can't lay my hands on the weight of a Thompson BG at present. I suspect, but with no real evidence, that they would have been used interchangeably. Andy

Andrew, Yes I am intending to build the full Aberdonian as at 1956/7 - I like a challenge! It left pretty early (1900) so could reasonably be mixed in with daytime trains and in daylight, so I don't need a full layout of overnight trains. It's only when trying to put together such an overnight service that one realises how limited the current RTR range is. I list below the full service as at 1956/7 (thanks to Robert Carroll's carriage workings). BG (Thompson), Mk1 BTK(4), Thompson SLTTP, 61'6" Gresley SLF (as Hornby), 66' Gresley SLF (d.157), Twin SLC (d.161/2), Mk1 CK, 2* Mk1 TK, BG (Gresley or Thompson?), SLC (D.20 Gresley), Mk1 BCK, Gresley D.11 RU. The RU on the end was detached at York, and the SLC and BCK next to it were for Fort William with the rest being for Aberdeen. Of the 14 coach train, six need to be kit built. I have completed the d.157 (see photo below) based on Kirk kits as in Steve Banks' web site write up. The D.20 (Mousa sides on Hornby) is nearly finished and the SLTTP is well on the way. The D.11 restaurant car is a problem as I don't know of any kit for this. I may have a go at bashing a Kirk kit, but for the time being I will use a D.10C. Thanks for your photos, they seem to show a pair of D.157 66ft Gresley sleeping cars - lovely coaches! Andy

Thanks Jonathan, Steve Bank's website is indeed a great resource, and has helped me get this far. I hadn't heard about the Whitehouse twins, so thanks for that tip - I'll follow that up. Andy

Changing the subject somewhat from the erudite discussion of the finer points of English grammar, here is a picture and question about my latest modelling project. I am trying to produce a d.161/162 twin SLC of which only two were built in 1932. While a slightly esoteric subject, they were more or less ever present in the Aberdonian formation from the 1930s to the late 1950s, and I'm trying to model this train in full. AFAIK there is no kit of this diagram, so I'm trying to kit bash Kirk sleeper kits to form the sides. I think I've made reasonable progress with one side as in the first two photos below (although they will need a lot of fettling). I'm stuck with the other side as the diagram doesn't show this side and the only photo I can find (p115 of Gresley's Coaches by Harris) is also of the same side as shown in the diagram. I've had a go at producing diagrams of the other side (based on the window spacing and educated guesswork) which I've shown in the bottom photo below. I'd welcome any comments on my attempted diagrams, or better still, does anyone know of any pictures of 'the other side'? Thanks Andy

Here are some photos of my latest completed project. A Thompson PV RFO which I'm going to use in my 'West Riding' formation. Built from Southern Pride sides (which I found excellent) on a Bachmann donor with MJT bogies. It will nicely complement the ex Gamston Bank articulated twin that I bought through Tony. I now need a BSO/SO twin to complete the formation, which will be a challenge to source! I have one question for the experts on here which concerns the upper lining. I have placed mine directly above the windows leaving a narrow cream band above. This is consistent with many photos I have seen (e.g. Harris blue book p105). However, I note that on the new Bachmann coaches, the BTK has no lining, while the TK has lining right at the top against the cornice. Also, I note that the PV stock on the Elizabethan, had a crimson band above the lining. While my coach was originally built for the non stop (pre-Elizabethan era) it was removed very early, I assume when it was still in teak livery, and therefore would probably not have acquired the crimson band (again pure assumption). Can anyone tell me definitely how the lining would have looked on this coach in the early to mid fifties?

I think I agree with you about the streamlining. I certainly prefer an A3 to an A4 - surely the ultimate in grace. Both both are infinitely preferable to anything with copper on its chimney.

It looks great, and I've been meaning to try the Klear treatment. Do you know whether he brushed it or sprayed it on?

Love the shine on #90 Gilbert. How was this achieved?

It does indeed, and they can be very useful, although I think that Peco small radius is getting a little too short. I've set 30" as my minimum radius (except in the goods yard), allowing Peco curved points and medium radius. I could really do with an extra long radius point for crossovers on the main line and similar where space permits, but I don't suppose such a point will ever be available rtr.

I couldn't agree more! I have the greatest respect for those who model in EM or P4, but I know I haven't the patience or time. However, we all have to make compromises and I'm going to be slightly controversial and say that I think 00 is actually a better compromise than the wider gauges in some respects. We nearly all have to compress certain elements of the prototype to fit in our modelling aims - even 'sir' admits to 18" on Little Bytham! What 00 allows is the tighter curves (preferably off scene!) which permit a circuit in a reasonable space and thereby running of long trains at high frequency. Compiling such trains from a mix of rtr and kits and running them at mainline speeds is what I enjoy most about the hobby, and I feel that 00's compromises make that more possible. I hope this doesn't offend anyone - just my personal view.

Hello John, I love the heavy weathering on the wagon - really effective. What did you use? I look forward to seeing a photo of the full rake!!! Regards Andy

Thanks for the tip on the Christmas 2007 issue of Model Rail. I tracked down a copy on eBay and it arrived this morning. The pictures are very useful giving me underframe and some roof detail. As a bonus, there are also photos of the 1957 Mk 1 prototypes for which I have some Southern Pride kits which I've just started.

Thanks Tony, that will be useful. These were MJT, but at £11.70 a pair a little competition wouldn't go amiss! Andy

David, This is a combination of parts from many sources ( aka a bodge?!). You are right that they are longer than the standard Thompsons which doesn't make life easy. I used a pair of Railroad 'shortie' underframe that I picked up for 50p each, and glued them together on a plasticard former. All the underframe detail has been removed, ready for new bits when I can work out what goes where. It seems to work for now, but we'll have to see when it is pressed into service. The other bits are Mousa sides, 247 ends and MJT roof and HD bogies. Andy

A week or two ago we were discussing kit built Thompson coaches. That spurred me into action on my d.368 sleeper. I have made some progress as can be seen in the pictures below, but have now hit a bit of a stumbling block as I can't find any pictures that give me the underframe and roof detail or even exact bogie location (they are stuck on with blutac at present!). The best picture I can find is on p108 of the Harris blue book. Does anyone know of any better sources?

Tony, This is a picture of my first and, so far, only complete brass coach kit. it is a Comet kit for a matchboard BG. I was quite pleased with it at the time, but I now think the colour is too 'orangy' (Vauxhall Carmine Red) and I now use Ford Rosso Red for early BR red. I'm sure there are other bits I should have improved, but I remain in blissful ignorance! A Bill Bedford D.368 sleeper is well on the way, and will appear in due course. Does anyone know where I can find a diagram of one of these, as they don't seem to be listed in the Isinglass catalogue? Hope to see you at Stevenage. Regards Andy

I'll definitely be in the market for one, as I tell Dave every time I see him at a show!

Thanks. My mistake for not spotting the Thompson! it's a strange trick of the lens on that front Gresley.

Interesting that the front two Gresley have ventilators offset from the centreline. I knew that was the case on Thompson corridor stock, but I'd not noticed it on Gresley before. Is that of often the case?

This weekend has seen me finally finish the Kirk Restaurant Triplet Set that I have been building on and off since the summer. Thanks to those of you who helped, in particular Tony for the tip about two bolts from underneath the bogie to stop the articulated kitchen car wobbling - that worked a treat