DaveClass47

They've got two more announcements planned for saturday at the Warley show, im keeping my fingers crossed still.

I have everything crossed as well!!

What confuses me is that £209.99 for a limited edition set of old 'railroad' detailed items.   Thats just crazy money.   The images clearly show that its a current tooling item, but these are just computer images....are Hornby playing it cool here?, will they pull the wraps off the newly tooled 91 and DVT to justify the high price tag? 

Consider this....a newly tooled HST with full DCC motor, all wheel drive, lights and high level of detail is only another £10 more expensive.   So surely, this £209 for a CL91 and DVT is a BIG HINT that something special is going to be announced?

If they do, then my job is complete....I have successfully badgered, bullied and persuaded them (via countless emails over 2 years) to give us a all NEW 91 and DVT.   i REALLY HOPE SO, or my campaign goes on for another year! lol   If its a re-tool then YIPEEEEEEE, lets have a Swallow livery set in 2017!! 

I am off to pray to the model train god!

Do you think they can see that in Margate?

Apologies, typed it from my hand held device and the font sizing went a bit mental!   Have ammended.

And I doubt anyone from Hornby is still in Margate!   Its shut down.

I'm not sure what relevance this has to Hornby's - or anyone's - Class 71. The 71 was a 750 v dc loco, whether on conductor rail or OLE, and ran in SE London and Kent. The market for such a model is quite different from that for 25kv ac locos running north of London. I will not be pleading with Hornby for anything, thanks.

Hi,

WDP4D is spot on with his response to your initial post....

I am aware of the differences between the 71 and 91 (and not just that one has a 7 and the other a 9 in its number).   The point I was making is that Hornby have now shown a willingness to model Electrics with a pantograph (also whether they run on AC or DC).   Why am I surprised by this? Well speaking to Simon Kohler at a show last year he said that Hornby had tended to shy away from detailed pantograph locos as they didn't tend to have much success with them. So to find that they are now tackling a model with a pantograph is encouraging and possibly shows a change in direction for Hornby?...only time will tell.

I hope Hornby have masses of success with the 71, they deserve to having seen the initial rapid prototype model.   Maybe this will give them the confidence to model more 'electrics', whether that is the 81,86,87 or 91.

Dont feel you have to plead with Hornby....again, you're taking what I said a tad too literally.

EVERYONE! - Lets email Hornby and ask for a new Class 91 and MK4 DVT....Hornby have caught the 'Electrics' bug (as they have announced the Class 71), so lets strike while the Electrics Iron is hot!! ;-)

Indeed, I was very much surprised when I saw the Class 71 listed on the Hornby website a week ago. I'm glad they are venturing out into new electrics. Certainly a Class 91 is needed. There is many more also - Class 86, Class 87, Class 92. Bachmann have taken up the Class 90 (I often hoped they did that first rather than the Class 85).

Yeah I felt the same about the 85...although I might get one just to start my electrics collection.

Cheers

Dave

I am thrilled to see this loco announced.  I do not initially intend to add one to my layout as its well outwith my era, but there are a few reasons I am excited that Hornby is producing this:

1) it shows that Hornby is keen to produce niche models (as only 24  Class 71 were produced).

2) Hornby are brave enough to tackle 'electrics' and models with a pantograph and not just a funnel!

3) They are using the latest scanning and 3D Rapid prototyping to ensure absolute accuracy.  

So, based on the above, Hornby can now turn their attention to another Electric that was built in larger numbers?   If Hornby are displaying the ability to go for the niche models (and you can add the P2 in to this group) then surely there is mileage in a new Class 86 or 87 or 91?

Cheers.

Dave

I'm wondering what any of this has to do with Hornby?

 

 

 

Jason

I just put it in the Hornby thread as I didnt really know where else to put it, I could have easily put it in the Bachmann section etc, but since all of the retailers are increasing prices Hornby was as good a place as any!

I appologise if i offended you, but that is how the tone of your posting came across to me.

Hi, no worries, apology accepted...my post was not meant to come across as such, but there is an element of frustration on my part at the immediate and large increases in prices.   I have not got money to burn but love collecting items for my layout...so the price increases really hit me hard in the pocket and have a direct affect on how my love of the hobby can be expanded with new items.

I appologise if i offended you, but that is how the tone of your posting came across to me.

Hi, no worries, apology accepted...my post was not meant to come across as such, but there is an element of frustration on my part at the immediate and large increases in prices.   I have not got money to burn but love collecting items for my layout...so the price increases really hit me hard in the pocket and have a direct affect on how my love of the hobby can be expanded with new items.

That is true but it is rather irrelevant in this case as MOST (though not all) of Hattons price increases are simply the removal of the significant discount they have been apply for years compared to other retailers of a similar size and setup.

 

To expect ANY discount to continue forever is foolhardy and that is the point here.

I think the point I am making is that the increases have been wide spread and severe in many cases.  I think we can all agree that we've had it so good for a long time, but perhaps a more progressive increase in prices would have been easier to swallow than the sudden shock of a 30% increase.    After all, most of us are still waiting for pay rises in our jobs after years of pay restrictions.   A gentler increase would have been welcomed.

All well and good but I would hazard a guess that you, in common with most of the rest of us, would have a moan if the price of everything you had to buy was increased by 20-30%.

That's pretty steep.

Well said!!   No doubt some people don't moan about anything and are millionaires?! lol

Peco's price rises were announced a good month or so ago and in Pecos own words they would 'take immediate effect'. With regard to common items like point motors I don't think Hattons wait till they are down to their last few before placing orders for more and as such it is not a surprise that the prices Hatton charged for such items jumped up accordingly.

 

As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry but it is just the winging of a spoilt child - especially the nonsensical claims about the financing of the forthcoming King. For years Hattons have consistently been undercutting everybody else by some margin and only a fool would think it could go on forever.

 

It is an unfortunate part of the British mentality these days that people seem to think a discount is a God given right - well it's not. Just because many retailers deliberately have a policy of making things to the cost of the discount price yet market the items as though they are built to a higher spec but have the price massively reduced doesn't mean model railways should follow suit.

 

In short get used to higher prices and stop moaning.

Hold on one minute...I can assure you that I am not a "spoilt child" and suggest you refrain from personal insults. 

I am only trying to speculate as to why the prices have gone up so steeply.   RMweb is a forum for debating, discussing and trying to make sense of what the retailers and manufacturers are doing, and the reasons behind them, and airing these views in an adult, respectful manner.  It is certainly not a forum for insulting some one else just because you don't share the same view point....that I suggest is childish!!

Discount is not a god given right, but getting the best deal for yourself, within your budget is, and is a right I intend to continue to take advantage of.

Commercial businesses are complex organisations that are set up to make profit and provide a return to their shareholders.  

 

How they achieve those figures can done in various ways and product pricing is just one part of a complex equation.  

 

You cannot look at price increases in isolation and try to second guess why they have been applied.  There are numerous other areas of cost within a business that bear little relation to the product being sold.

 

Ultimately you have a the choice whether to buy or take your business elsewhere.

Yes ultimately we do....and I for one am taking business elsewhere.   My goal is to get items for the best price, there is very little customer loyalty in the online shopping world.  I only wish my local model shop stocked a large range of railway stuff, then I would buy from them, but sadly I am forced to go online.

Peco have put there prices up recently on some items so it could be Hattons have had to replenish sooner than other and now have stock at the higher prices I know the RRP of flexi track had 15p added this month.

 

 Hornby cut the margin on all products this year but orders placed prior to the start of 2015 were at the previous margin which has lead to some items being discounted more heavily than items announced this year. Some retailer are now selling at Hornby RRP such as Kernow while other seem to offer between 5 and 7% discount I suppose it depends on how much they feel they can afford.

 

This reduced profit from probably their biggest selling brand might have led to them looking at there overall margins on other brands and maybe adjust the amount of discount they offer.

 

I am lucky and still have a local model shop in my town and I purchase from them 95% of my models I get a small discount as a regular customer and don't have to pay postage and I can see the models before I buy. But I know many people don't have that luxury and I can see one or two mail order firms struggle as Hornby's new margins mean the end of big discounts but this could benefit what small local shops are left. 

Hi,

I wish it was the case that Hattons only bumped the prices up when the item had sold out and had to be replenished at the new increased price....but there are numerous examples of where this has not been the case, far from it!

For example, their Bachmann Mk1 and Mk2a coaches sat at £24.01 for ages with a healthy stock level and all of a sudden those SAME stock items have gone up to over £33, despite Hattons having bought them from the supplier when the price was lower.   Is that profiteering?   It's certainly a tad cheeky!!!   They have increased prices on all items across the range, not waiting for the existing stock to run out.  This might be ok when they are adding a few pence to a model, but not increasing it by around 30%!

As for the Peco point motors, this is another case of popping the prices of existing stock up.   I looked for more point motors and they were on at £25 for 6 on the Monday and when I got paid and was able to afford to place an order on the Friday of the same week they had jumped up to £34!   Same stock, new highly inflated prices. Hmmmmm.

Are Hattons are trying to increase the money they get in from loyal customers to fund their loco projects??   The way they are talking about this new King Class loco, it will be nothing short of life-like, with only the exclusion of a real boiler and working fire to distinguish it from the real thing lol.   I think they are over hyping it while racking up the prices on their 'bread and butter' items that we all need.   I hope I am wrong.   I am a big supporter of Hattons and their place in the hobby.

Prices Up and no longer the cheapest prices online

Is it just me who has noticed this, or are Hatton's increasing a lot of their prices of late?   I have noticed that some of their 'mega pack' buys are not as good value as they used to! (whilst still competitively priced)

Looking at their Peco stuff, you used to get 6 point motors for £25, now they have risen to £34!   I thought inflation was sitting at near 0%?, so where they got this 20%+ price increase is anyone's guess!   Some of their Bachmann price increases are also noticeable.

They are no longer the cheapest around, with Rails, Track-shack to name but two online retailers who are under cutting them on lots of items.   I still love shopping at Hattons, but they ain't as good value as they used to be.  Even their postage costs are not the best around, with Track-shack offering free postage on Locos and free delivery for spends of over £100, and they give you NEXT day delivery for under £4!  

I might be an old cynic and completely mis understanding the business side of things, but do you think they need to increase some prices to fund their 00 gauge loco projects?  I really dont know, what do you think?

I am still a fan of Hattons, but question some of their pricing of late.

Tell Hornby Directly!

Guys, can I suggest you contact Hornby and vent your opinions on the Class 91?  They will not listen if its just me emailing them (on a regular basis), but will be more inclined to 'act' if there is a genuine desire for a new 91.

Please add your voice to this project and email them today!

Cheers

Dave

Just looking at the DVT for the EC and it appears (sample on Hattons) that one side is printed Fast Coast    SMH     

Oh really? God forbid!!

I will have a look at my one when I arrive home and see. If it is wrong then they should be recalled..this isn't just a simple error in the livery, it's a product fault!

But let's not get angry until we've checked it on the actual model lol

Hi Guys,

I contacted George Dent, from Model Rail and he kindly put up an article on his blogspot about the current Hornby Class 91.   He outlines ways in which it can be improved.

http://georgedentmodelmaker.blogspot.co.uk/

Hopefully its a short term measure until Hornby brings out a new tooled one!!!!

Dave

You can get a hold of the TGS without tinted windows, R4446.  However the buffet is more difficult to find without the tinted glazing.  Ebay is the best bet!

AT least they matched as a rake unlike the MK3s !! 

Hi,

Are you referring to the Western Region Blue Grey MK3, that started off by releasing the Standard Open coach R4445A in 2013 and then after a much delayed release, they brought out the 'matching' 1st class R4445A, TGS R4446A and Buffet R4603 all with the newly tinted class?   But have since not had the wisdom to bring out the Standard coach with the new tinted glazing?   That really pee'd me off.   I am still waiting for them to announce this coach (R4445B?)...maybe in the 2016 catalog!!!!!

Hi folks.

I was just reading through my June edition of BRM.   There is a feature in it showing the latest announcements, including those from Bachmann.

I have had the class 158 (dcc sound) and the new MK2F coaches (including the DBSO) on pre order since they announced it in 2013.   I have also had the new class 90 on order since July 2014.

Unfortunately I have just seen to my massive disappointment that the models I have on pre order are "predicted" not to bon sale before:

MK2F - Predicted 2016

45 Ton Class B TTA Conical End Black Predicted 2017

Class 158 - Predicted 2017

Class 90 - Predicted 2017

Now my initial reaction was one of utter disbelief, but now that's turned to a tiny bit of anger.   This is more so for the Class 158 than any of the others.  It was launched in 2013 and it will be another 2 years (at least) before we see it.   So there is a very real possibility that this train will be arriving 4 years after being announced. 

Why Bachmann announced models it cant manufacturer is just plain crazy. Hattons price estimated that this would cost customers £233 for the sound fitted 31-517DS model.   By the time it arrives I am predicting a price over over £300!   

What hope have modelers got of affording these models when they price keeps going up, which is made worse as a result of ridiculous delays.   

Did Bachmann get too big for its own boots and announced far too much, made too many promises, and now its finding it cant deliver?!?

Hornby took real stick from the consumers when its delays got really bad, so I hope the same people who bashed Hornby at every turn now lay off the Margate brand and perhaps vent their displeasure at Bachmann.

I personally think 3-4 years from announcing a model to it hitting the shelves is a little bit ridiculous.   You could build an actual 1:1 Scale Ocean Liner in less time!!!

Can I suggest?

Can I please ask anyone posting on this thread who wants a newly tooled electric, Class 91 or otherwise to contact manufacturers and make a product suggestion through their official channels.

Simply posting thoughts and desires on here is really great, informative and worthwhile, however in order to get things to happen the manufacturers need to be directly persuaded.   So why not spend 5 minutes writing them a polite email?, perhaps ask them for:

Class 91 - perhaps try Hornby first, as they already tool this loco.    www.Hornby.com/uk-en/contact

Class 86  - ask Heljan to retool their flawed one?

Class 87 - ask ALL three major manufacturers?   Hornby are currently the only ones who have this loco in their range, even if it is pretty rubbish by modern standards.  If Bachmann take it on we may see it by 2025 going on Bachmann's current progress! 

Manufacturers such as Hornby etc say that a lot of their future products come about as a result of consumer demand.   Well let us start directly demanding a new 91 of them!!

Thanks

Dave (I'll get a new 91 somehow! lol)

In N gauge the Japanese concept of using masts without wires works surprisingly well and in many ways looks better than actual wires as a result of the over scale appearnace of N gauge wires but as you scale up to 1/76 it becomes much less attractive and really you need wires for OHLE to look good.

Hi,

I think the inclusion of wires poses some problems for modelers.   At the moment there seems to be no hard and fast rule as to the spacing of the masts, so any wiring would have to include a guide for distance between masts.   And we all know that masts are closer together on curves and on point work, so manufacturing set sections of wiring to cater for all of these eventualities could be complex and expensive, considering the limited market of modelers who may want to use wiring with their masts.

Dapol are apparently launching wiring (non operational) to go with their 00 gauge masts, but the maximum section of these is 200mm, thats far too close for masts to be spaced, so would look wrong.  Dapol are also expending the types of masts they offer n and 00 gauge modelers...however I have been waiting 2 years for these to materialise!!

Secondly, having the wires in place impedes maintenance.   You cant get in to clean the track as easily, hoover up dust etc and generally clean the layout.   The wires by their very scale would be very fragile and hinder more than enhance a working layout.

I think we are in danger of missing the point of getting a newly tooled electric loco....and that is to run detailed electrics to modern standards.   They will look good pulling trains under masts, with or without wires.   I just want a newly tooled loco....then if they take off then we never know, operational wires may follow!

Hi,

I would just like to say that I would love to see a newly tooled class 91 and Mk 4 DVT, I don't mind who does them, I just want them. Oh and if a kickstarter, crowd funding project was started with DJ Models on board then I would definitely want to be part of that. I have the new Beattie Well tank produced by DJM in conjunction with Kernow Model Rail Centre and I can tell you that it's detailing and quality is excellent so I'm sure that a 91 would be produced to an equally high standard.

 

Oh and Dave, I love your YouTube videos, can't get enough of them in fact, keep them up!

 

Cheers

Howard.

Hi Howard,

Thanks you so much for your comments about my layout.   I try to get videos uploaded each month, but with the warmer weather coming in I am limited to my time up the loft...it just gets too hot!   Keep an eye out for more uploads and thanks for your support.

As for the Cl91.  I have now emailed Hornby on 3 occasions asking for them to look at this thread and I also informed them of the growing desire from a large group of modellers for them to re tool the 91, DVT etc.   However if it is to happen it needs more people than just little old me telling them directly.   Thats why I urge everyone who reads this to contact Hornby directly via the Hornby.com site and direct their comments to the customer care team or 'product suggestions' section of the 'Contact Us' tab.   The more times Hornby are reminded of this thread the more attention they may pay to it.   If they don't then maybe the DJ models via a kick starter is the next step...however a kickstarter would require DJ models (or who ever else) to produce the full train including MK4 coaches and MK4 DVT.

Thanks for your comment, I hope your voice is heard by Hornby.   Fingers crossed for a new 91 & MK4 DVT!

Dave

Wow! This is looking mega impressive!   Thanks for directing me to this thread.   I am daveclass47 from you tube by the way! lol.

Cheers

Dave

If people are snapping these up is there any incentive to release it with updated tooling? 

Hi, I believe so.

As you can see from the poll results so far, 90 out of the 110 votes said they are not content with the current tooling.   That's over 80%.  The same is true for the question on whether they would interesting in adding a 91 to their layout.   90 people have said yes, but only if its re-tooled.   

I think that if Hornby have the courage and future vision, then its essential for them to have a modern electric to 21st century standards in their line up of models.   They have exhausted the steam fleet and to be honest, they dont show much interest in the diesel era, so maybe they can carve a new market niche in the electrics!   I have read that Simon Kohler banged his head against a brick wall trying to get the engineers to re tool the APT!....more fool them!