teeinox

Revised roof line looks perfect!

Looking good: looks like a Q23! Some points. May I suggest that the curve of the lower part of the roof is more pronounced than in your drawing. Looking at photographs, the curve seems to end at the clerestory proper almost, but not quite, horizontal. Fan-plates. The diagram seems to suggest that all the marker lights are covered except the middle one on the left hand row. That had a double fan-plate: one to cover the lamp, the other for a red filter when the Q23 was running as last car. With LED lighting, many of us would be tempted to drill out apertures to provide each marker light with an individual LED, but in doing so would both destroy the fan-plate moulding and have to fabricate a replacement to the side. To give a choice of destinations, would a good solution be to provide a sprue of fan-plates as a separate moulding so that the purchaser could add them to get the head-code they want? The cables seem to be moulded on. Many of us would want to have those as separate items, which would leave us with the chore of removing them from the moulding, especially if we wanted to open the fan-plates on the two right-hand marker lights. Moulding the detail where they attach onto the body would be fine. Bear in mind that Q stock was handed, and that this “inner” position of cabling makes the car a westbound driving car. This is O.K. I think that in their latter days all were westbound.

Yes, I too had detected that the drawing was slightly oversize. I don't know where he got the drawings from, but there are other problems with them too. If you look at the cantrail of the Q27, it is drawn as two pieces of beading, one overlaying the other. I think that is what you may have implemented on your model. That arrangement was right for the Q35, but as photos of the Q27 show, they had a simple one piece structure, possibly rather deeper than his drawing portrays. As they say, the devil is in the detail! Regards, teeinox

Thank you for your reply and particularly the diagram. My source of information seems to be the same as yours, Ian Huntley’s book “The London Underground Surface Stock Planbook 1863-1959”. It was the book I consulted when working to improve the Radley Models resin kit of the Q23. So, I did some measurements using his diagram of the front elevation. I measured the distance from the bottom of the panelling to the top of the horizontal moulding that runs across the front elevation directly above the end door. That came to 27.3mm, pretty much like the 27.2mm that you quote. I then measured the distance from above that moulding to the top of the roof. That was 8.7mm, different from the 7mm on your diagram. The ratio between the two is about 3.1: 1. So I measured the photos he has in the book as well, and the ratio was similar, 3.09 in one case and 3.14 in the other. The profile of the lower part of the roof leading up to the clerestory (there must be a technical term for it!) is tricky to get right, as I found out. It springs directly almost vertically from the cantrail/gutter, quicky bends sharply, and then gradually flattens out as it goes toward the clerestory. Hope these comments are helpful. teeinox

Nice to see! The Q27 looks really good. Though from the photo, the roof of the Q23 looks too low, the same fault as on the resin model: it took a lot of sweat to rebuild the roof on that model.

A simple question. Has anyone replaced the glazing on this type of coach, and if so, what did they do and how did it go?

Thank you for all your advice on how to disassemble the coach: the pictures were particularly helpful. As it turned out, a determined lifting of one corner of the roof with a fingernail, and it sprang off! And here is the result: For 1976 it was a really amazing piece of construction design by Airfix. There is no glue involved and it is all robust. It locks together like a Rubiks cube, the glazing being the component that holds it all together. Which is a bit of a problem, because I want to replace the glazing. But we shall see, there is a solution to everything. I may post how I get on.

I had no plans to get another Replica Railways ex-LMS D1915 open coach. But someone on eBay was selling one, together with a Mainline ex-LMS composite, both with replacement Hornby metal wheels, for £23.50 including postage. That’s £11.75 a coach. What’s not to like? Renovation of the coach was a repeat performance of the one I had already done, except for the windows. I was not happy with the SE Finecast Flushglaze windows, so this one got the original glazing replaced with simple glazing strip. However, the lavatory windows were interesting. Scanning Jenkinson and Essery’s book revealed that the LMS had several different approaches to obscuring the glass. On the Hornby models it is a solid opaque white, but that is not universal. Sometimes the glazing is more translucent with what appears to be the use of a patterned opal glass. And that is the type D1915 appeared to have. To model that, I kept that part of the original glazing which had a textured surface and washed over it with a very thin coat of white. The ventilator portion of the glazing got an additional coat of white because on the prototype that appears to be more opaque than the main window. To emphasise the white further, I painted the interior of the toilet compartment white. Here are the two coaches together: Comparing the two window treatments, neither looks right. But on balance, I prefer the simple glazing because there is no optical distortion, you can see the interior more clearly and it retains the proportions of the window which, somehow, the Flushglaze disturbs. As for the coach with Flushglaze, after I had taken the photograph, I removed the glazing (it came out quite easily) and replaced it with simple glazing. So the two coaches now look the same.

I still have the Lima version. It's equipped with Shawplan name and number plates, proper skirts at one end and a replacement coupling. Pulls well, though screams away in the Lima fashion. All i have to be careful about is not to place it next to my Dapol Western. Then you notice the faults. But it captured the look well. I couldn't part with it!

Many thanks for the info. I'll have a go!

I need to take the roof off this elderly gem, mainly to do something about the strange windows! How do I do it?

So far I have stuck to DC and avoided DCC because it seems complicated, needs special kit and for what is a software-driven system, appears a bit dated. So I found the Hornby offer attractive because it is based on common, mainstream computing technology with which I am already familiar. But there are a couple of things that concern me. My H&M Safety Minor still works after 50 years because the environment in which it operates has not changed. Software is not like that. The platforms that Hornby’s software uses, Android or Apple iOS, change and Android, in particular, changes often. The Android operating system is only security supported for the latest 3-4 editions. Given the release rate, that is about 4-6 years. So, writers of apps face a maintenance treadmill. And that can be expensive: software engineers do not come cheap. My understanding is that the software is intended to be free. Is that really sustainable on the back of a one-time purchase of the hardware? Or down the line, might Hornby be tempted to charge for software upgrades? The other question is app interoperability. Out of my 13 candidates for equipping with DCC, just 2 are from Hornby. I might take the plunge with Hornby to test the concept. But I certainly do not want to land up in a situation where I have to have another app for Dapol, another for Bachmann, and yet another from a third party for those locomotives which are not from any current big manufacturer. Resolving that is a matter of standards, and I don’t know whether this is an area in which, NMRA, for instance, is active. Or is it all too new?

This is probably a very naïve question, but when we talk about modern versus old controllers, is there anything about modern motors that actually requires a different control approach from old motors? And if there is, what is it?

I did an (unscientific) comparison between a Gaugemaster Combi and my 50-year old H&M Safety Minor – a variable transformer controller. The subject was a Bachmann class 42 made in about 1998. It has a Buhler (I think) centre motor, and a fine motor it is. The test was to examine how slow and smooth a crawl speed I could get. The result was that the Gaugemaster could start the locomotive at a slightly lower speed than the Safety Minor. Using the Safety Minor meant the locomotive started from rest at a slightly higher speed, but could be throttled back to a very similar slow crawl speed to that yielded by the Gaugemaster. In both cases, the crawl was splendidly slow with no halts. Under Gaugemaster control, the locomotive was marginally noisier than under the Safety Minor, where it was almost silent. So, slightly better control with the Gaugemaster, but a quieter progress with the Safety Minor. But the differences were small.

My motive power fleet of 23 varies in age in design terms from 1952 to 2013. Of those, 6 are DCC ready, with either 8-pin or 21-pin sockets. 7 could probably have a DCC socket hard-wired in. But for 10 of them, it would be impossible. The main problem cases are Tenshodo and BlackBeetle motor bogies, not just altering their pick-up arrangements, but finding where to put the DCC sockets on what are elderly hand-made models. So far I have stuck with DC, using Gaugemaster series D and Combi controllers. They are generally fine for everything. But I also have a H&M Safety Minor, kept for the most elderly locomotives, and out of pure nostalgia! As a collector of rolling stock rather than a layout man (I don’t have room for one), I could contemplate using both DC and DCC, depending on the locomotive. So far I have not been tempted to invest in DCC. But what does tempt me now is DCC operation controlled via Bluetooth. Being able to run a locomotive from an app on my tablet would be a gamechanger! I don’t really understand where that market has got to right now; I get the feeling that it is still early days. I shall wait until a clear picture develops before taking the plunge.

So, I received the book today. Wonderful service from World of Books. But no, as expected, there was no information on trains to the South-West. Interesting all the same. Clive Carter gives a useful summary of the numbers of LMS gangwayed coaches. Despite my having pictures of Period I and II coaches in South-West trains in the very early 60s, the overwhelming number of ex-LMS coaches existing were Period III of the common types: TK @ 1442, BTK @ 1363, CK @ 1027, and TO @ 939. That there were almost as many BTK as TK is maybe a reflection of that, outside the main routes between Euston and the major cities, portion working was popular. This meant lots of brake vehicles. I wonder whether trains from the South-West seemed to have plenty of brake coaches because they consisted of portions to serve several northern destinations?

Their pricing can be strange. I am still adding to my collection of elderly Bachmann Class 42 locos. Here are some examples of Hattons pricing: At the moment Hattons is asking £46 for a "Sir Brian Robertson", clearly afflicted with mazak rot: I suppose it MIGHT be worth it for the spares. But they are also asking £74 for Avenger, also badly afflicted with mazac rot and transmission problems as well. An absurd price for something which cannot really be fixed. On the other hand, I managed to buy Eclipse as a "bargain" item for £52. It had pick-up issues which were sorted out with some bull-nose pliers and contact cleaner but now runs sweetly. I keep an eye on Hattons, but I always check their prices against what appears to be the going price elsewhere from other vendors and eBay. In general, i have been very happy with what I have bought from them, and given that I tend to buy stuff which was made about 20 years ago, I expect to solve problems. As long as the price is right.

I didn't argue! £3.95 and no extra postage charge. Deal done. Many thanks!

Does it cover services to the South-West, including peak Summer ones? I ask in hope!

Many thanks for the suggestion, though the Passenger Train Formation book is going for £20 upward. Must be a good book!

Another picture I have of ex-LMS stock in the South-West, dated June 1961, shows, after D844 “Spartan” heading it, a Period I twin-window BSK, then an ex-GWR all door Collett bow-ended composite (!), followed by a Period III SK, a Period II SK, and then a Period II something or other, whereupon the photo cuts off. The SKs could have been SOs, but I suspect they were not popular on trains to the South-West because of lack of luggage storage. The entertaining question is: how did the ex-GWR coach get in there? In another example, the motley effect seems to have diminished. This is a Penzance – Manchester train on 2nd August 1960. It consists of 10 ex-LMS Period III coaches, finishing with 3 Mk1s on the tail. From the locomotive, D800 Sir Brian Robertson, it starts with 3 x SK, then a BSK (van leading), 4 x SKs - could be a composite in there -, followed by a BSK, van leading, and then another BSK with the van trailing. The train then continues with the 3 Mk1s, whereupon the photo cuts off. So, 13 coaches in the photo. What’s the rationale behind this formation, especially the positions of the BSKs? Was this an enhanced standard formation, or what I suspect it is, an ad-hoc formation for the holiday trade? Any clues? No discernible catering, though, but did London Midland holiday trains to the South-West at that time ever have any?

Well, that saves me finding transfers for the coach! You are so right about variety. My interest in LMS coaching stock is what ran down to the South-West in the early 60s. I was staggered to find a photo dated 1960 of a TO, D1629, built in 1925 included in a Kingswear - Liverpool express, and hauled by a Warship. I guess it was a holiday train, decidedly not class A, so anything went. Heaven knows what the punters thought, travelling in this antique!

Many thanks for your replies. I suspected it might mean "class A" stock, i.e. for the best and fastest services, but couldn't be sure. So the Replica Railways D1915 Perid III open excursion coach I have, I guess that would not be class "A" stock? The picture in Jenkinson and Essery shows it not so marked, as far as I can see.

This ex-LMS Hornby Stanier coach, like the prototypes, is adorned with the letter “A” on both sides of the gangway: What does it mean, and what sort of coaches had this marking, and what sort didn’t? Here's hoping an LMS expert can help!

I’ve been travelling on trains a long time! First experiences were the Underground: the whine of the Metadyne P stock could not fail to captivate, still more the loud and muscular, but eccentrically decorated F stock (anyone remember the pink and blue eggshell experimentally decorated coach?). For mainline, it was trips from Paddington to South Wales to see my Great Aunt. I could train-spot the SWML from her attic window; it was the era of the changeover from steam to Diesel-Hydraulic power. But still plenty of steam-powered shunting. Transportation started with dowdy Collett compartments and moved to Mk1s, with one trip on the South Wales Pullman. No, that wasn’t exciting. But my last trip was on the XP64 set; that was new and exciting! I travelled a fair bit by rail for work. It was much of a muchness: Mk2 with a diesel. But top of the pops was silver service in the restaurant car. Oh, that was worth having, especially the breakfasts! Without doubt, the peak of pleasure was the HST with the First Class in its pink and grey period and immaculate service to match. We tried to get hold of the crockery for home, it was so beautiful. No luck! I also commuted on Southern. Apart from the comfy seats on the BIG/CIGS, there was nothing to recommend, apart from the fine wood veneer interiors of the prototype CEPS. And then came the 319s; a revelation, apart from the cramped seats. In the end we decided not to commute at all and bought a flat in London. We still travel a fair bit by train for leisure. While in itself the rail scene may be less interesting, the scenery is still beautiful, and a quiet lunchtime journey, equipped with a picnic of M&S sandwiches, is hard to beat. And how about a trip on the Central Wales line in one of TfW’s immaculate one-coach trains, with a stop-off and stay at Llandrindod’s premier hotel to break the journey? And we now seem to get into conversations with railway folks. How about a conversation at Caerdydd Heol y Frenhines (Queen St.) which went “How do you find the 769s?” “Oh Shocking!”. With that Welsh accent lingering on the “ck” sound; you knew they were really bad. Then he showed me a picture he had of the “Cheriton” nameplate; I snapped his snap. Or on the LNER train going south from York “I’ve got two more full breakfasts left and they have got your name on it”, offered in a beautiful Geordie accent. “Yes please” I said before the offer was gone. Right now, though, things are not so good. There are the awful riding IETs, and others have mentioned uncomfortable seats. But worst is the overcrowding and unreliability. They create stress which wasn’t there before. I won’t list the culprits; you know them.