etendam

Exactly, this is what I didn't understand why both the UK and the EU claimed they would both prosper the most about leaving as several new regulations where announced several years back and you could see what would happen here. I just think there are more losers than winners in the story. The modeltrain (or Toy) industry is perhaps 0.0001% of the total export / Import and therefor was not a part in the negotiations manufacturers their primary focus is on the internal market. (as it was ehhh 40 years ago?) Ed

Hattons can change their VAT registration in different countries (But it isn't mandatory!) into one EU VAT number. Then they can pay all EU VAT in the country of registration and then the tax authority of this country will pay the tax to other countries. That is the One Stop Shop idea. Above the € 150 in the EU Hattons will not pay the VAT for you and you have to pay this at the shipping company. The catch in here are the CE Marking regulations. Hattons may after July 16th only export items to the EU that have CE markings AND have Name / Address details of the Authorized Representative within the EU on the package each item otherwise the customs will (or can) block items to avoid they come into the EU. This is what kills the UK export. Hornby has setup a selling hub in the EU, but I haven't seen much from other manufacturers. So either they waited to see what will happen with the CE markings or they will sell in the EU through a very large retailer (and appoint him as the authorized representative) or they are not interested in buyers outside the UK anymore? The UK is setting up their own CE marking system UKCA but this isn't mandatory until 2023 AND they need to recognize each system first that the UKCA will also be allowed in the EU. But as it looks now this can take a few years. Ed

There are 2 ways to get a CE marking: - self-certification. The manufacturer)assessing the conformity of your products yourself. This includes carrying out a conformity assessment, setting up a technical file, issuing a declaration of conformity, and affixing the CE mark logo to your product. Manufacturers for most products can affix the CE mark without the involvement of a third party. - third-party certification. You contract an company that can do the assessment for you. As the new regulations require that you should have a Authorized Representative within the EU and their Name / Address details must be on the package of each item, the self-certification will be a less usable option as the Authorized Representative wants clear proof that the CE Marking process has been done properly as they will be responsible if there is an issue with a product. So a small manufacturer should not only get their CE Marking but have to look for a dealer in the EU (That is willing to act as an Authorized Representative) and also wants to earn money from the sales as well to continue selling within the EU. As said before the EU is talking about product safety but on the backdoor they protect the internal EU market. As the same kit manufacturer is based in the EU he would not need a CE marking when he states on the product that the kits can't be made by children under 14 years old. So setting up a selling hub by this company in the EU and just sent out technical parts (these are not classified as toys and are therefor hit with duties!) and there "assemble / pack the set" in the EU and then sell it. This is why there was an article in the Guardian where the UK government encouraged to set up separate companies inside the EU (and it isn't just because of the Brexit as the New CE marking rules where also announced more then 3 years ago!) https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/brexit-hit-firms-advised-government-officials-set-up-shop-in-eu Ed

The new CE markings start at July 16th. So you still have one month.

Wrong...the bureaucrats will have thought of this however there is still a free amount of € 45. There is only a very limited amount of annual shipments from friends. (They keep records for this to avoid abuse) Please note that the CE-Marking in this situation is the same! Without it the customs hold the shipment until the paperwork is complete! Also there is some confusion about second hand items. Second hand items will also be hit with VAT (& duties if duties apply - Not for modeltrains) For the CE it must be very clear that the item is used. An item like new / or with an undamaged box is handled as a new item. Some countries (As discussed before like France) will not accept any items from the Toy category (Starting with HS code 95..) without CE. So producers of kits and bits can't ship to some countries without CE. Even not as Friend. Ed

The handling fees mentioned are for the Netherlands as every country have their own costs. (some up to € 20,00 per shipment) but the rest is for ALL EU countries as they are NEW EU regulations. Ed

Not ONLY small suppliers are affected by the new CE marking rules. As an example Kato is in the EU is distributed by Noch. (assuming that they will act as an Authorized Representative based in Europe for CE) they will demand from Kato that only items distributed by them will have their Name mentioned on the items. Noch however doesn't supply the full range of Kato (and sometimes their prices are xxx times more as well) so a lot of items are sold directly from Japanese suppliers or by UK sellers. If the name of the Authorized Representative is missing on the package of each item it still can't enter the EU. So the UK importer will be affected by this as well and I don't believe this is a small supplier. The same for the shops in the UK that have an EU VAT number to continue the supply to EU customers. They will be cut off as well by the CE markings. Or what to think about an item that is produced in the EU and has a CE marking (there is no address on the item as it isn't needed with the EU) shipped to the UK by a retailer and when the retailer sold it to a buyer in the EU it can't be re-imported ??? Ed

Kits also start with the HS code 95 and this is the code for Toys, Games And Sports Equipment. Every item starting with a HS code 95 is on alert with the customs. They must have CE Markings. There is an exception... and one is the mark EACH item (on the outside of the package of the item AND in the instructions) that the kit is collector item and only suitable for age 14 years and older. But as the customs are well aware that this will be used to avoid the CE there are a number of remarks before you classify an item like this. The kit therefor must have a huge number of parts and can't be made kids. A 3D printed kit is therefore NOT exempted from CE A loco / wagon / kits of that is similar available from manufacturers like Marklin / Fleischmann / other that have CE markings will be used for comparison to determine by the customs if it should have a CE marking or not. It is VERY difficult and a long process to convince that the customs made the wrong judgement - in the meantime the seller is offered 2 options: Either pay the costs of the customs and shipping then the items are returned to the sender of the items are scrapped within a month. On a daily basis a few containers with items are scrapped by the customs just in the Netherlands. Small suppliers will quickly become fully dependent on a business partners in the EU with whom they will have to do their business. The prices for buyers will of course rise as a result, because the importer also wants to earn money from it. (and will act as an Authorized Representative based in Europe for CE) It is strange that some have not yet done so while relying in part on customers from the EU for their turnover. Most notably, a range of items manufactured in the EU does not require CE marking (because the manufacturer is directly liable for the product) and importation of the same item then the CE marking is necessity for entry into the EU. Although the EU indicates that it is about improving product safety, the EU will protect the internal market in this way and it will prevent everyone (especially in China) from placing a CE logo on all items by default. Ed

The Dutch post (PostNL) just released the new rules for purchases from non-EU countries after July 1st. Shipments up to € 150 will have VAT added + Handling fee per shipment (€4.00 when paid online or €7.00 at a pickup point) Shipments from € 150 will have VAT added + Handling fee per shipment (€10.00 when paid online or €13.00 at a pickup point) + Duties (Modeltrains = € 0) You will need to pay VAT for any products that arrive in the Netherlands from 1 July on wards. The purchase date is IRRELEVANT! It is possible that you already paid the VAT but the handling fee will always be charged. If you choose not to pay online the parcel is send to a pickup point and you have 7 days to collect the parcel and pay the fee. After 7 days it will be shipped back! After July 16th the NEW CE marking rules for modeltrains also apply. CE Mark products (Modeltrains, Toys & Electrical equipment) cannot be sold online in Europe without an Authorized Representative based in Europe. Make sure that the items you buy f.i. from the UK, US or Far East have a CE mark and the details of the Authorized Representative in the EU on EVERY product. The Authorized Representative however will demand from manufacturers / suppliers that his name will ONLY on the items that are imported by him to avoid self import and make him responsible for the CE responsibility. So we will soon get back to EU importers. Ebay will block Ads from business sellers on EU Ebay sites that don't have a VAT number. How they tackle the CE Marking is not clear to me yet but in their policy is stated that listed items that needs CE marking from outside the EU must have it. So items that are offered after July 16th must meet the new rules to prevent suspending of an account. So it will not be so easy to get items that are not available from EU sellers. Ed

That is correct, just fill in the customs forms and enter a HS code (9503003000 Modeltrain) . On arrival your friend will pay for the VAT and a courier fee. That is it. Ed

Please be aware of the following: Registering for the IOSS platform is not obligatory BUT if you list items on an EU Ebay site that isn't in your country (Like Ebay.de) you MUST have EU VAT number. (Or have a fiscal Representative is several countries which is much more expensive) Without it all the listings are removed for business sellers by Ebay on July 1st. Some might consider now to swap to a private account but the fees are higher and in case of an issue you are responsible for the returning cost of shipping . There are several people offering this service (registering a business and address) on social media for low prices a month. Please be aware that they can raise the monthly service fee at any moment..... (This is how they earn a lot of money! - so you should be VERY careful where to register) Normally the prices for these services vary between € 400 - € 1200 a month in the Netherlands on a fixed contract. Ed

As my wife is a business seller on Ebay she has to list an item for the selling price and in another field you should fill in the VAT %. From July 1st it is mandatory on Ebay to fill in the % of VAT. Even for very small businesses that don't have VAT registration, they are simply banned on Ebay by this. Ed

Sorry, Above £ 135 / € 150 it is indeed totally different. Then you will always have the added VAT and a fee for the carrier. Ed

This would NOT have happened if the seller had stated the EBAY VAT number that is on the PayPal payment is mentioned on one of the address lines! A lot of EU sellers are not aware that this number must be stated on the package to avoid double VAT. So always clearly communicate with the seller that the number must be mentioned on the package. Ed

If a business seller has a VAT number then the UK VAT will be deducted and the local VAT will be added. There is however a huge amount of sellers that doesn't have a VAT number or if the item is used and then VAT is added on the price you see. As the treshold is very high in the UK (above £ 85000) before you must have a VAT number, you should focus on the larger sellers or those that have a VAT number. Ed

Hornby closed the German office a few years ago but they just opened a distribution center in the Netherlands. (They were well prepared for the Brexit and the new IOSS system.) Within the EU from July 1st you just need one EU VAT number and don't have to be registered then in each country anymore. The VAT treshold for each country is lowered to a total export within the EU to € 10.000 a year. (Combined total of all shipments to other countries) If you are above the limit then you should either have a VAT number for each country where you export to and pay the VAT in each country or request for just one EU Vat number in the EU country where you pay the VAT. They will forward the VAT to the countries for you, this saves time and a lot of money. Ed

Amazon handles the VAT the same as Ebay. The seller should just mention the VAT Number on the shipment. There have always been exceptions regarding the CE Mark. The most commonly used one is that the item isn't suitable for children under 14 years. this is still valid if you produce items within the EU but doesn't count anymore when you import items from Outside the EU. Like the example mentioned before (Royal Mail / France) items that are imported with a HS code for toys or Electrical equipment must have a CE Mark. (and the authorised representative!) So soon you can't sent items anymore under the HS code for modeltrains soon but in lots of other HS categories there are other restrictions or tariffs. But if the customs opens you shipment and they find modeltrains that are not properly classified they will hold the shipment. Without the CE mark on the items and the address of the authorised representative, they will not let it enter the EU. Even if you have the paperwork! The most odd thing still is that when the item is produced within the EU you still don't need a CE mark in some cases. The EU tries to protect the internal market with this, I assume? So the easiest option will be shipping raw materials / parts and assemble/pack items in the EU but for some companies this is easier said then getting it done. Ed

The VAT number with code PAID is from the PayPal payment. Ebay is taking care of the VAT. As mentioned before if this line is mentioned on the address you don't get additional costs! My wife has done this multiple times with buyers from the UK and it all works fine. A shop/company doesn't have to be registered for the UK VAT if they handle ALL the sales to UK buyers through EBAY , Amazon or other selling places. This saves additional work and you don't have to pay your bookkeeper an additional fee for handling the UK VAT at the HMRC. A lot of sellers on the German Ebay are not aware of this and they blocked the shipping to the UK. Just open Ebay.de and change your Postal code and City somewhere in Germany. Google for a hotel in a city to get the info. On some categories you will notice there are 50 times more Ads then when leaving your shipping address to your own. If a seller just want to ship in Germany, I simply sent a message and ask if he also can ship to my country and 4 out of 5 are willing to do so. Ed

The Hornby, Hornby international, Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan and many other UK brands are in Europe distributed by Modellbahn Union and all the N gauge models at their other company DM-Toys Ed

You can still ship model trains items from the EU to the UK as the UKCA will be mandatory from Jan 1st 2023. How it will work from the UK to the EU (when sending a used model train) is not certain. Normally you would ship it as a collectors item but as mentioned above France already has strict regulations that you are not allowed to sell Model trains (with the HS code for Modeltrains) anymore without CE. CE however is impossible to used items, so I don't know how this will be solved either. Ed

The royal mail has taken some early steps...but they make it directly clear that there is NO difference for business or private sellers and as modeltrains are classified as toys by the customs (even if companies say otherwise) it also answers the question regarding if you must have CE or not for smaller companies. You simply can't ship anymore without CE. It is exactly what Jol Wilkinson & Simond said. CE is for MOST companies / products nothing more than a self assessment..... but now suddenly you need to have an authorised representative in the EU and as this representative is from that date responsible for issues regarding the safety AND they want guarantees to make sure the CE is done properly. I don't think everyone will take the self-certification for granted and they want much more proof where they are responsible for. So it will not be so easy just to appoint a representative....... Ed

The UK is setting up something similar......The UKCA mark using UK Approved Body (can be used from 1st Jan 2021, mandatory from 1st Jan 2022). N.B. Actual UKCA mark on the product does not need to be attached until 1st Jan 2023. As long as there are no agreements regarding the CE and the UKCA the same will apply to EU companies to have products enter the UK. Depending however how well the sales to the UK are going companies will decide whether after this date they will continue trading with the UK. Other companies affected by the EU CE rules and selling items with CE are Kato and Tenshodo (With their new Spuds) and several other manufacturers. Ebay also mention about these new CE rules. Items that (or must) meet CE requirements and doesn't have an authorized representative in the EU will be removed from EU Ebay sites. So it will not only affect non-EU manufacturers but non-EU traders/sellers that sell new/used items as well. Note: there is NO exception for used items as otherwise everyone will classify their items as used! The same applies to Amazon. https://www.ebay.de/help/selling/selling/produkte-mit-cekennzeichnung-die-eu-verkaufen?id=5225&st=12&pos=1&query=Produkte mit CE-Kennzeichnung in die EU verkaufen&intent=CE mark&docId=HELP1634 It is in German but it gives an overview for which items the CE is needed/mandatory (Für welche Produkte gelten die gesetzlichen Vorschriften und Richtlinien?) and has a link to referenced UK sites (CE marking (gov.uk)) Non-EU Business Sellers on Ebay must also have an EU VAT number (and upload this number on Ebay for approval first!) to continue selling on EU Ebay sites or all their advertisements will be removed on July 1st. Business sellers that offer items on items on Ebay sites outside the EU must also comply to these new rules when they offer shipping to the EU. So some companies that wants to keep selling have about 2 months to get their EU VAT number and appoint an authorised representative in the EU to continue with their sales or change their focus to the internal market. Ed

The new rules regarding a EU VAT number, the ending of the VAT free shipments below € 21 and the new CE regulations will be devastating for small / medium businesses that are not in the EU. I think they should reconsider their trading options, if they haven't done this already as most of the mentioned things above are known for more a year now but not every company has these things high on their priority list ! Ed

Peco should have a CE marking as modeltrain items are imported with a HS code that is a part of Toys. (Track from Peco are connected electrically so they should have electrical safety AND Toy classification) With parts you can use other HS codes but with track not. When picking another HS code than there is the possibility that duties /Tariffs may apply (or a third country tariff - when most parts are not from the UK) This is what modeltrain companies try to avoid as toys are free of duties. Regarding a company like Dart Castings: Every company should investigate (if possible by a notified body as the rules are very complex!) if CE should apply to their product. A locomotive / tram or any other running item with a motor in it MUST have CE. When an Advertisement/brochure/leaflet etc is made with person under 18 years old holding an item of your company then you also MUST have CE. (Even if the folder is 10 years old!). And then you have a long list which products / raw materials that may not in your product otherwise you also must have CE. Are wires soldered with solder that still contains lead? You guessed it - CE applies.... These are just a few examples of the complex rules that goes with CE. If the customs have doubts on an import (Like Peco) than they will hold the shipment until the paperwork is handed over. (This is why you should have a notified body to investigate every product that you produce!) If they say you don't need CE (on paper of course with their Registration number!) than the customs will forward the shipment. Most of the shipments will pass the customs without investigation (>95%) but when they hold an item (and it is a very expensive item) you and the seller aren't very lucky when the item is scrapped by the customs just because the paperwork isn't complete! If the customs knows a seller can't show the paperwork the next shipments will also investigated. Ed

For CE not! This should be an importer, dealer or something similar. A postal address will also not work as it should be a registered company. He will also be responsible for issues regarding CE. This is a very tricky subject as the company is than responsible and should have insurance for something that isn't made by him if something goes wrong. BTW the new CE regulation hasn't got anything to do with the UK leaving the EU. It was intended for unsafe Chinese Toys and electrical equipment but the UK is affected by this as of the brexit. Especially those in the MRR business as they are clasified as toys. Ed