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danstercivicman

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    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

    in Layout topics

    Posted

    On 05/11/2020 at 11:33, Brian D said:

    Hi Dan, 

    I've just had email from Rails of Sheffield to say they have Bachmann Jubilee "Madras" in early BR Black on offer for £99.50. Is this of interest to you. 

    Regards, 

    Brian 

     

    Hello, thank you for letting me know.  I’m afraid I’ve gone well over budget this month- I got a Bachmann 5MT and a rebuilt Patriot to turn into 45738 Samson (with a Mainline Jubilee body)..

     

    Thank you though :) 

    • Like 1

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

    in Layout topics

    Posted

    7 hours ago, Jamie said:

    OK, so most pics turned out to be St Enoch-Ayr/Girvan workings but on shed at Stranraer I found pics of 73077/079/102.

    Caprotti 73145 seems to have been south of Girvan a few times towards the end of its days.

    73100 possibly the only one I've seen recorded on the PP&W, coupled inside a black 5 on Stranraer Town to Dumfries which I think was in one of the books on your 'bedspread'

     

    and possibly my favourite for your scenario

    73009 allegedly standing in for a DMU in the bitter cold of February 1963 at Barrhill - that's in 'On G&SW Lines'.  There's a couple of howlers in that book, so I don't know what to trust - that particular caption is plausible though.

     

     

    Looked at troop trains yet?  Those could keep your Clans busy and throw a curve-ball into your operating sessions.

     

    Yes the TA Troop trains have been considered.  I’m trying to get the main workings correct first :) 

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

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    Posted

    46 minutes ago, Jamie said:

    There's another pic on Railscot of the same train at roughly the same position headed by a GSYP Class 27 and similar Standard 5 - so that dates it quite well as, what post yellow panels so 1962 approx and pre singling of the Hawkhill curve quoted as 1965.

     

    Additionally, most references to the closure of the Port Road describe Anglo-Scottish boat trains being diverted via Mauchline. Which implies Ayr Hawkhill Jct - Annbank - Mauchline and regular workings over that curve.  I can't immediately recall seeing a picture of such a working actually on the Ayr-Mauchline line, but there may be one in a Derek Cross book.  

     

    All very interesting.  I'm finding the discussion on Jubilees and Boat trains very useful - I get these things straight in my head then gradually it all fades into confusion again soon after!

     

    There's a few Std 5s pictured on Glasgow trains, don't think too many are Caprottis, fewer photos on the PP&W line.  The Stenlake/WAC Smith books would be my first port of call - I can have a look later if I get a chance.

     

    Yes please- the relevant one is prob ‘Ayrshire’s Last Days of Steam’ 

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

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    Posted

    27 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

    That is interesting. According to the entry for Hawkhill Junction that curve was closed to passengers in 1951 and singled in 1965. https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/H/Hawkhill_Junction/

     

    So assuming the caption is correct, that's a pre-1965 photo (so the Port Road is open) showing a passenger train on a goods only route. That would be permitted if necessary, passenger trains could operate over goods lines if a person with a sufficiently large hat authorised it, so my guess (and it is  only a guess) would be that the train is diverted off the PP&W by engineering work.  

     

    I'm assuming for the purposes of this guess that the second coach is in crimson and cream, not blue/grey !

     

    Of course the other problem with the picture is that it appears to be a Capriotti valve geared loco...

     

    As no r-t-r version exist I’m somewhat stuck.

     

    73100 (Bachmann 73158) is a possibility or 73009 (Bachmann 73014 redone)...

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

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    Posted

    15 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

    That is interesting. According to the entry for Hawkhill Junction that curve was closed to passengers in 1951 and singled in 1965. https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/H/Hawkhill_Junction/

     

    So assuming the caption is correct, that's a pre-1965 photo (so the Port Road is open) showing a passenger train on a goods only route. That would be permitted if necessary, passenger trains could operate over goods lines if a person with a sufficiently large hat authorised it, so my guess (and it is  only a guess) would be that the train is diverted off the PP&W by engineering work.  

     

    I'm assuming for the purposes of this guess that the second coach is in crimson and cream, not blue/grey !

     

    I haven’t got enough knowledge to comment on the route but yes I certainly think it’s crimson/cream.  It opens up some possibilities :)

     

    Basically loco wise I’m trying to select locos from these sheds:

     

    Carlisle Kingmoor

    Corkerhill

    Stranraer

    Dumfries

    Ayr

     

    I’ve converted 72005 back to XP...

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

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    Posted · Edited by danstercivicman

    11 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

    Beware of captions in books and magazines, unless you know who wrote them. There are some Port Road photos in a Steam Days article from a couple of years ago - either one of the locos has been misidentified or 45480 had a boiler swap one afternoon at Dumfries. Explanations of workings can be even more fanciful, there is a caption in one of the Booklaw volumes on SW Scotland showing some end door vans 'going for trip round the G&SWR triangle to turn them' - they aren't, they're going to Metalbox at Carlisle from the Carnation Milk plant in Dumfries. 

     

    For modelling purposes I generally rely on photos where I can read the number for myself, although I confess that my 73100 is based on a caption !

     

    Yes, it can be a nightmare.  Personally I find understanding the timetables is harder!  

     

    To add add to the conundrum:

     

     https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/65/739/

     

    Shows a STD 5MT on a Newcastle- Stranraer working marked SO- Saturdays only...

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

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    Posted

    6 hours ago, pH said:


    Just a comment - 45687 and 73079 were Corkerhill engines. They would be far more likely to have worked to Stranraer by way of Ayr, rather than from Carlisle through Dumfries. Having said that, I think that earlier in this topic someone mentioned a Corkerhill diagram where the engine worked a train from Dumfries to Stranraer, so either of these could be at least a possibility on the Northern Irishman.

     

    Maybe I should take 72005 off parcel duties put that as XP with 72008?

     

    That would mean displacing a Jubilee... some of the problem is caused by 45588 being a 5 bolt boiler and lots of the other Kingmoor Jubilees being fowler tendered...

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

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    Posted · Edited by danstercivicman

    6 hours ago, pH said:


    Just a comment - 45687 and 73079 were Corkerhill engines. They would be far more likely to have worked to Stranraer by way of Ayr, rather than from Carlisle through Dumfries. Having said that, I think that earlier in this topic someone mentioned a Corkerhill diagram where the engine worked a train from Dumfries to Stranraer, so either of these could be at least a possibility on the Northern Irishman.

     

    I’ve used this for some of the numbers:

     

    https://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/04/stranraer-newton-stewart-1939-1964.html?m=1

     

    Also checking:

     

    http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/04/carlisle-kingmoor-1963-1965.html?m=1

     

    It does show Corkerhill locos at Kingmoor...

     

    Hopefully it’ll be ok!

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

    in Layout topics

    Posted

    14 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

    It was the first issue, sorry ! It got renumbered to one of the Sc allocation, it shares the duty (or will if I ever get NS working!) with a kit built Highland Railway one which seems to have got lost a bit. 

     

    Again, somewhere I've got some workings for the Down Special (I think) TPO showing which vans were dropped where en route, pretty sure one was dropped at Carlisle for Stranraer. If I find it ...

     

    Like this:

     

    https://railsofsheffield.com/products/35062/Bachmann-39-421b-oo-gauge-br-mk1-pos-post-office-sorting-van-post-office-red-with-nets-

     

    Sounds like you have some good resources somewhere :) :) 

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

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    Posted

    13 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

    The Newcastle trains are a bit of a nightmare once you get into the various onlys/excepteds. In short (very short, because I never did get completely to the bottom of it) you can have all or any of the following depending on the day/time of year:

     

    • A four coach Carlisle - Stranraer working, usually with a Kingmoor Black 5 and LMS stock. Apparently extended to Newcastle in the summer with LMS and LNER stock used turnabout, but I've yet to find evidence of a 4 coach LNER set or more than 4 of LMS stock, apart from obvious strengtheners where non-corridors have been added to the normal 2-3 coach Dumfries-Stranraer set. 
    • Up to 8 or more LNER coaches worked through from Newcastle, both overnight and during the day, by a Black 5, Jubilee or Clan. The composition appears to be day coaches regardless of the train time, mostly TKs with the odd CK. I have some carriage working notes somewhere, I'll dig them out. 
    • There is at least one relief to the overnight Newcastle train in one of the 1960s timetables, goodness knows that that was made up of or how often it actually ran. 

     

    TPOs - Peter Johnson ("The British Travelling Post Office", Ian Allan, 1985) says this:

     

    "Galloway Sorting Tender - commenced operating between Dumfries and Stranraer 1st May 1871. Extended to Carlisle 1st July 1885. Designated a TPO on 14th July 1930. Ceased 1940."

     

    However, the Summer 1959 timetable (reproduced in "Branches and Byways") shows a 4.15am departure from Dumfries described at 'POSTAL - LIMITED LOAD' and arriving in Stranraer Harbour at 6.22 am. That was enough excuse for me to buy a Bachmann TPO but in practice I suspect it was a BG full of mail bags attached to a couple of passenger coaches. No photographic evidence unfortunately. 

     

     

     

    Thank you.  It confirms the mix of stock I’ve got for this route.

     

    Which Bachmann TPO did you get?  I’m struggling to find an early one?

     

    Hornby did the LMS one but not in BR markings R.4155?

     

    There were a lot of BG’s used on the services.  Most passenger trains appear to have run with a couple of vans 

    Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

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    Posted · Edited by danstercivicman
    More historical surmising

    So those sites are very helpful...

     

    The N.Irishman ran to and from Euston and Stranraer.  One UP leaving at 22:00.  This was the train from the sailing from Larne which docked at 20:55 hrs.  

     

    On Friday during the summer it looks like a relief ran.  The Stranraer-Larne Boat Train? 

     

    Back to N.Irishman:  

     

    One DOWN leaving Euston at: 19:10 the night before.  Arrival times 04:00 (sat) or 05:28 (normally) passengers could stay in there sleeping berths until 06:25.  The Ferry to Larne left at 07:00 hrs. 

     

    Interestingly the second site fills in the gaps.  Expresses from Newcastle connected with the DOWN and UP services.

     

    Neither site references a Buffet...

     

    From my reading I can see that the locos changed at Carlisle with the Kingmoor engines coming off.  

     

    From my other reading Stanier 5MT’s and B1’s ran from Carlisle to Newcastle (mainly the former I think).  

     

    These sites have really helped understand the workings. 

     

    So I can surmise that with the loco that brought the DOWN N.Irishman working a return trip to Glasgow and back before taking the UP service that’s one loco fully accounted for! 

     

    The locos I will use for this diagram are:

     

    72008 Clan 6MT

    45687 Neptune 

    45691 Orion 

     

    Then 44726 with 73079 

     

    That will hopefully bring some variety!  

     

    I can therefore continue this diagram for a while .. or until 1965 in model form!

     

    However if it’s a Friday the double headed 5MT’s will be used on the Stranraer-Larne Boat Train...

     

    Now that may be an unbalanced working so that means ECS..

     

    The 12:17 Hrs to Newcastle also appears unbalanced.  

     

    The Bulk of the Glasgow services via Girvan and Ayr would have been Class 126 DMU’s in my chosen period.  

     

    Further research shows that six or even nine car sets ran to Ayr with six or three car sets running to Stranraer.

     

    There is an option to use locos for some of these OR eventually build lots of Class 126’s!!!! 

     

    The other services are the Port Road services to Dumfries via Castle Douglas/Newton Stewart.  The rest of my 5MT XP fleet will be used on these.

     

    The books are really useful here- two or three coaches a couple of vans or CCT and double headed Stanier 5MT’s!  They did this apparently to balance workings.

     

    To add add variety I can run 2P’s and 4P Compounds. 

     

    I’ve also found that Class 122 DMU’s ran in Scotland!!!

     

    Therefore that would be a better option for my imaginary ‘Port Patrick’ local!  Although it’s provably overkill for what would have been a trip to Stranraer Junction stopping by the signal box the driver walking through the DMU to the other end then running to Stranraer Town and then terminating at Port Patrick...

     

    Seems like a bad idea and I think the Western Bus Parked by the Station would have beers a better alternative! 

     

    Please add any corrections/thoughts. 

     

     

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