Derekstuart

Mick, I did read somewhere that OR were going to produce the Chiltern MK3s with their plug doors. Whether that was an official statement or someone who thinks he knows more than the rest of us I cannot say. As for Notwork Rail having MK3s- where do you get this bizarre idea from? Apart from a very small number transferred to departmental/RTC some years back they are all still in front line service with BR Intercity. HSTs and LHCS alike. The few MK3s that were transferred to RTC are all in red and blue. Nothing in yellow on our railways thank you. EDIT: I am BOUND to get someone not realising that was just tongue in cheek wishful thinking, so if you are reading this and just about to reply with photos of bast******d yellow HSTs please don't. I mean, just don't. It's not clever.

Royaloak, that's more or less what I thought regarding the shape- it looks like it has come off worst in an argument with a set of buffers. The Lima power cars, whilst lacking some of the super detail, do at least have the basic shape correct. As for the commercial realities of OD/OM releasing power cars, I would agree. The similarity to other models would be enough to dent their sales enough to make it too big a risk. Many other wishlists on RMW will come to nought for a similar reason.

Or the replacement WSP units fitted on the axle boxes. But it's not that, it's the front nose. I don't doubt that Dave (above) is right about the angle of the cab fronts, but it is the lip that seems wrong to me- it seems very straight and somehow wrong. I've also read Jim Smith Wright comment about the windows being wrong- and he is a chap who studies these things to the nth degree. Or shall we just comment on that very prominent mould line? Sorry o/t.

No arguments with that. Though I suspect the commercial reality means that no one will release another HST power car (though as Rapido will have something very similar in the HST-P, they MIGHT be persuaded). Without wishing to go off topic, can anyone put their finger on what is wrong with the nose of the Hornby HST? I don't mean the prominent mould lines either, not that they should be there on something of that price. There is something about the nose edge that doesn't seem right. Others have said similar but no one can quite place it. The old Lima model is lacking modern detail but has the right shape.

Thanks SRMan. I was aware of 123s and 124s and whatnot, but I've never seen one from that angle before- though I understand there were several different configurations. I shall go and see what google has to tell me about them. Thank you.

Peter, sorry to be a bore but what is that in the first photo please? (and before anyone tries to be funny with "a train" or similar...)

Of course if they do a really good job on the MK3s people might start looking closely at the Hornby HST power cars- and from what I can see of them you really don't want to do that.

I will be supporting these chaps with purchases partly because I want to see them develop, and they are showing all the right signals so far. There will always be room for fanatics to criticise them- for example, the HST and LHCS were painted slightly differently in blue/grey era- it might not be practical to represent those different versions and if so, I bet somewhere someone will moan about it. I wonder if we might be better not pre-empting what they might or might not get wrong before they've even released it and show them the support that we would like to receive if it was US putting our investment on the line.

You are far too hard on yourself. Either that or 3 year old kids with 5" brushes are becoming incredibly talented. Try posting those last few shots in the "how realistic" thread, if you haven't already. Certainly you have an eye for the real thing and the ability to replicate it.

I think you've done a pretty damned good job with the aesthetics personally. You have varied shades of green and various textures- just as a real overgrown siding would be. Top marks.

Careful Paul. Before you know it you will be looking at gauge 1, then 1:10 scale and before long it'll be off to West Coast Railway Company to see if they can sell you any 1:1 scale Brush 4's...

Mike This is one problem with internet forums- it is very hard to distinguish when someone is being critical or argumentative or just putting forward alternative viewpoints; that can of course apply to my post above or indeed the post from you that I was referring to. I do agree with you about re-tooling something without proven demand. Indeed, I would also agree that even if there is a proven demand but that demand is being satisfied by people buying the old one in a new livery because that is all that is available, then there is little incentive for Hornby to invest. Though I would point out that British Leyland took that attitude with its cars in the late 1970s and 1980s and observe that they aren't around any more. Where I disagree with you is firstly your comment about limited scope. These are just as widely travelled as pendolinos- which you are building. They are much more widely travelled than 320/321s, which you are also building. (That does of course NOT mean that you should be doing a 91 set). Secondly, your post came across as quite dismissive and almost "like it or lump it". Perhaps that was not your intent and I've misunderstood your motives. It is quite proper and correct to make people realise just how expensive it can be if it does not sell, but at the same time not to pour so much cold water on them that they drown. Clearly your business model is not geared towards commissions so hence my suggestion about looking at other manufacturers. One thing I am not clear on is: Do people want the same quality at a lower price or higher quality at the same or higher price? Obviously higher quality at a lower price is 'challenging'. I know you work or have worked with Rapido and will be aware that a 2+2 APTE set was made for not far from twice the value of this 91 set. Perhaps people need to decide which of the following applies and go from there: 1. I want to set a price of £XYZ and then see what quality manufacturers will be able to offer 2. I want to set a quality of XYZ and then see what price a manufacturer will offer

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here (though in fairness I haven't waded through all 14 pages). Do you mean limited use prototype like a pendolino? Or limited use like a 320/321? You have managed to identify demand for those models so why can others not explore the demand for the 91 set? The first rule of capitalism is "charge what you can get away with" and if I were in charge of Hornby I would be doing exactly the same as they are now- charging as much for an ageing 'toy' as I can get away with. Don't forget we don't know what the licensing agreement is with virgin- or what costs are involved. Either way there is no reason why people cannot explore the demand and options for a new tooled set. But that does not automatically make it good value for money nor does it preclude or prevent people from discussing that very point here. If people are serious about wanting a re-tooled 91 then why not do as others have done and look into it in detail rather than (and PLEASE don't take this the wrong way) moan about it on RMW? Certainly don't be demoralised by red death's comments- try and establish real and genuine demand and then if you think there is enough firm demand start talking to other manufacturers about costs and options. If red death wants to tender for a commission then let him do so, but there are other manufacturers who might be more open to dialogue with you. However red death does imply that it isn't as simple as saying "I want" and expecting to get and he is dead right.

What an interesting diorama that would make- the test train on the ballast. Mr Tilt, thank you for that interesting anecdote. APT talks? Do you do these at Locomotion or are you on the 'after dinner speaker' circuit (many similarly interesting people do this). That would have been an interesting time getting the train back on the rails. Was it a case of jack it up and put track underneath it?

9th January incident? Please do tell... (or point out where on RMW where it inevitably was discussed before that I just haven't seen.)

Forgive my ignorance, but what sub-class of MK2 is that on the left? The one with the awful red and grey with white stripe livery. It looks superficially the same, but with slight differences. Is it a different version or just different fixtures and fittings?

Fair play to Rapido. They are issuing enough information to keep people informed and confident that they are working as hard with HST as they did with APT whilst at the same time not issuing pointless announcements of future announcements. Other manufacturers could do well to follow Rapido's lead there.

If you life the MK2 up as Phil suggests, so that the buffers align then the height is about the same. As Stovepipe writes, there's about 1 1/2 inch difference in height on the real ones but that's not really going to show up in model form. Possibly (and I am guessing) that might be to the top of the air vent on the roof which, from memory does stick up a good couple of inches.

Are you sure this is not a case of the Bachmann 37 being too tall? I always thought the B 37 looked wrong- too much gap under the solebar.

How about observing that it probably spent twice as long painted in blue or blue and grey than it did in green. Some railways would have had it in that damned lined maroon by now- headlamp or no.

How does EGR recirculation lower the temperature? (I accept that it does, but how?) I can rebuild a diesel engine easily enough, thought it's been a while as I sit behind a desk now. But the scientific theory involved in fine tuning designs is something that I've never really got involved with.

I have two vehicles at work, both 4litre diesels (we will use the generic term diesel for the moment) and both from well respected manufacturers. One does far better MPG around town but terrible on the open road and the other great on the open road and terrible around town. Oddly in all other respects- transmission, axle, wheels, body, weight etc they are all the same. Two groups of research engineers have designed two differently performing power units out of the same principles set out in the graph, so yes I can fully understand the point you are making. Sorry for the OT everyone.

JJB, on a more serious point (if a little O/T) do you know much about the Bourke engine? There seems to be claim and counter claim about its power out to fuel input ratio. Sounds good to me, but no one seems to be able to replicate it under close inspection.

JJB1970 if RMW was around in the days of your great grandfather he'd have been writing: P = ((HQ1 * AH1)/ AAH)*AOHWU Where P is power, HQ1 is hay quantity, AH1 is amount of horses, AAH is average age of horse and AOHWU is aggression of horse whip user.

If you take it along make sure you keep it running at speed. Do not get fooled into parking it in a siding or stopping at a red signal. If you do, Mick will be out with the yellow paint and network rail transfers.