LMS2968

I thought I'd check for AWS fitment, and the timing reservoir is in place near the bottom of the vacuum pipe to the ejector. The point about there being no snow is well made. Yes, I too remember that winter well!

Now that is a very interesting photograph, and I thank you for the link. We were aware from other BR paperwork that she'd had an 'Intermediate' repair from November 1962. Intermediates did not normally involve a boiler lift (a boiler lift immediately raised the repair to 'Heavy'), but it would not normally involve a repaint with full lining out either. Interesting is that the buffer beam is counter-sunk riveted after this repair. There was a possibility of 'Heavy Intermediate', which would involve a replacement boiler, but every boiler has its own individual number and the current one is 8412, fitted in 1957. I do though question the location as being Crewe. Quite apart from the above-mentioned paperwork, the Archive has four sightings of the loco at Horwich on 25/11/62 (Sunday) so obviously an organised visit, and she then ran Works Trials from Bolton 24/12/62 - 27/12/62, the usual shed for locos ex-Horwich Works. There are two sightings of her on Nuneaton shed on 3rd February 1963, so either the quoted date is incorrect (not unusual) or the photo was taken at Nuneaton, which doesn't sound right. And yes, we have the right 2968! Unless someone went to all the trouble of moving the works plate (moved before 1960 and whose location is unique to this loco) and fitted all the valve gear, most of which is still stamped 13268. Edited to add: Maintenance wasn't transferred to Swindon until December 1963 (from Engine History Cards) and the first sightings there are from early January 1964. Also sent to Swindon were the Ivatt Class 4s, one of which is in the background, but they had also been repaired at Horwich prior to this.

Yes, I had thought of that too, but there are no obvious gaps in the sightings to allow time for this. The biggest gap is about five weeks, and while it would be just about possible to turn an engine around in this time, a boiler repair would be pushing it. There is no record at ANY time of any of any these engines receiving attention at Derby, and once in Swindon the basically disappeared for months at a time. 2954 was there from 29/01/64 to 17/10/64, although that was exceptional. The other six did spend long times there, though.

This is one of three mysteries with this engine. Both Crewe and Horwich used counter-sunk rivets to attach the buffer beam; Derby and Swindon (where some of the class were overhauled during 1964) used snap head. From photograph dates, not always reliable, 2968 had counter sunk rivets to about the 1963 - 1965 era. The Engine History Cards were not filled in by this time so there is no Works attention to account for the change, nor is there any record, sightings or photographs of the engine at Swindon. We don't know. For the record, the other mysteries are the works plates, which were moved to a higher position at some time between 1955 and 1960. She had an out-of-sequence Heavy General repair at Horwich 12/08/57 - 26/09/57, during which she received two new cylinders and a new Right Hand front mainframe, welded immediately behind the cylinder (so far, no evidence of a Left Hand frame extension). This suggests heavy collision damage, but I've found nothing to explain it. At the same HG repair she received boiler 8412, which she carries to this day. She was not withdrawn until 31/12/66, so that boiler lasted nine years, Boilers had a normal lifespan of five years, extendable following examination by up to two years (hence the seven year ticket for current main line locos), so how did this one last so long? Any answers would be very much appreciated, because it's "Doin' me head in," as my students used to say!

Sales Stand dates available at http://staniermogulfund.org.uk/?page_id=825

Possibly because building one yourself would show up the problems in seeking perfection. The reality is that everything could be improved in some way or another, whatever it is and whoever made it. A bit more detail might be added, or a different technique used to give a better representation of certain characteristics, but like everything else, there is a compromise between perfection and cost, and hence price. And this last has already been the cause of comment. I have yet to see the model in the flesh, as it were, but I am impressed by the photos I've. seen. And it's a loco I know well in real life, having begun my acquaintanceship with 2968 some 47 years ago...

I'm still running two of these!

I was going to click 'Funny' but just couldn't bring myself to do it!

No. With the cranks at front or back quarters T the rods half way up the wheel) there is nothing to determine in which direction each set of wheels would rotate, so some could turn one way and another pair in the opposite direction. If one side is on front quarter and the other side on back quarter, the coupling rods would tangle themselves. This applies on a model as much as a real loco. One side must be at an angle: 90 degrees for two- and four-cylinder locos, 120 degrees for three cylinder. What we are discussing here is the angle of the return crank relative to the wheel. With the coupling rods at the bottom, the return crank should lean forward - on both sides. And while you cannot see both sides simultaneously, you can see the error on each side in turn.

It isn't just Bachmann who can get it wrong. This was Horwich Works, 9th August 1953.

I wouldn't have said so.

Excellent stuff, Apollo. How did you manage to get into Fort Knox - Bank Hall shed? In case you don't know, the Stanier Crab at Westwood is 2948: square-topped cylinders, cinder glass and the position of the OHW plate makes it the only possibility.

Just to give the idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgRjnYq9Bm8 Not my video, alas!

Can't help there as I do Honby Dublo three-rail(!), but the real engines had a very loud exhaust, more like a GWR Hall than a Black Five.

Sightings of the loco in May 1964: 42958 05/04/1964 Bletchley shed 42958 05/04/1964 Bletchley shed 42958 05/04/1964 Bletchley shed 42958 19/04/1964 Rugby shed 42958 19/04/1964 Rugby shed 42958 24/04/1964 Nuneaton Down goods 42958 07/05/1964 Roade 42958 09/05/1964 New England mpd 42958 16/05/1964 Willesden shed 1A 42958 19/05/1964 Wolverton Down train hauling EE Type 4 42958 19/05/1964 Bletchley Hauling Type 4 diesel 42958 20/05/1964 Aston shed 42958 24/05/1964 New England mpd

Although the list of Stanier Crabs receiving attention at Swindon does indeed include 2958, there is nothing within the SMF Archive to support this, and no ominous gaps in the sightings when it might have happened.

42949 - 26/03/1954 - Liverpool Walton-on-the-Hill shed At the time she was allocated to Brunswick.

This is the real tender behind 13245, but more likely 13265. The LMS was offset upwards and rearwards to clear the lines of rivets. The lettering was gold with counter shading, i.e. two shades of red for side and bottom of the digits.

Thanks Apollo. I have seen this site, but there are few too many of those new fangled diesel things for me!

Oh well, you've still provided some excellent information. Those four were taken after the engines were withdrawn, so definitely 1967!

Apollo, those are absolutely wonderful! A very neglected area of Britain, but you've done your but to correct that. I am, for obvious reasons, particularly interested in the four of Stanier Crabs. If this is 1967these are of 2954 and 2968, the only two in existence by that time. 2013-01-08-22-26-28 is clearly 2954, as is 2013-01-08-22-19-47 (tyres are too thick for 2968), but 2013-01-08-22-25-11 and 2013-01-08-22-24-41 appear to be 2968, probably with Ivatt 2 6447 ahead of her. This pair was delivered to Barry in that order. A long shot, I know, but is there any chance you could confirm the above? And now the real biggie: do you have any idea of the date. I admit that I didn't take dates at that period so don't expect too much here, but it's worth a try!

I can confirm: the first thirty had Midland-type whistles; the final ten had Stanier Hooters. You can swap them around (we have!), but that was the situation throughout LMS and BR days.

That's probably correct. The last photo with a snap-head riveted tender is dated August 1959; the first with counter-sunk rivets is dated February 1962.

That's difficult. At that time cleaning was almost non-existent, but more than that many films of the time were colour blind, i.e. could not distinguish between blacks and reds. So red lining on a black loco simply disappears.

According to the Engine History Card, this loco had tender 4526 for life, but photos clearly show that she had a counter-sunk riveted tender from some time after 1955 to the end.