Edwardian

I did wonder about show on the roofs, but this is non-essential and consistency is best. As this layout makes me cold just looking at it, I think we can say it works!

Is it not a question genetics, or inherited characteristics?

Yes, that would be interesting. If you take any snaps ....

Thanks to Brother Schooner for his pictures of Gloucester market. There would be towns that still held livestock markets in market places within the town. Thame: Skipton, 1906: I thought that a good way to boost its size and status of Birchoverham Market would be to make it a principle livestock market, where the Victorians had needed to move the market outside the town centre and construct dedicated facilities where there was more room to do so. I did a survey of examples on the interweb a while back. Gloucester shows most of the typical features of such sites that any model show aspire to include: - Nice stout masonry walls surrounding. Gates will have some architectural merit, the main gate might have a gate lodge building. - Most of the area is covered with open pens - There is often an opened sided shed structure - There is some form of central office building. There can be an indoor auction space, but this does not seem to be an essential. Here, for example, is Peterborough in 1904 (is that an electric light?!?): Kettering: Wakefield: Lincoln: Darlington: Monmouth: Brecon, taken from the Brecon & Merthyr, the bridge abutment in shot on the right: I could go on, and will no doubt when I find the pictures I saved a while back (now somewhere on a dying desktop). In the meantime, a pertinent example for CA, in terms of scale, period and location, is Fakenham. Previously located in Wells Road, this new Cattle Market was opened in 1857. This ties in well with the opening of the original WN line, CA to the Birchoverhams, in 1855, ans, so, Fakenham's market might serve as a model for us. It's not that far from the town centre. Thus, for BM one could imagine a sequence top left to bottom right of town square, cattle market, railway. We would reflect that location with perspective modelling/backscene to the extent space permits. The really attractive feature of the Fakenham site that, at least I would like to capture is the double gate, with its sweeping curved walls and central pavillion, seen at the bottom of the aerial view:

But it's fun to play along!

Excellent! Very nice. I fancy them for the Bishop's Lynn, but I do like the street tram carriages conversions I was working on (and still cannot find). I would not touch them in the low grade, but the manufacturer, when asked, has made carriages available in better grades. Shapeways is still brutually expensive overall and in value for money terms. Well, I thought I'd find fairly definitive answers, but then Brother Nearholmer showed that the bolt-on generators at gas stations made things less certain. However, I stick to the Watton example. Watton in 1900 was described as a "small market town". Iy was a station on the GER and boasted banks, both police and fire stations, three main inns, a cottage hospital, almshouses, a public 'recreation ground' and a gas works. It did not gain electric street lighting until 1932. Splendid pictures and, yes, just this sort of thing. I collected some pictures some time ago, but these are on anpther 'pooter. But canine owner's seal of approval. I love the burghers of Gloucester for providing for the dogs; "Love me, love my dog" I believe it says.

Well Happy New Year to Rapido, with best wishes from a Highland Terrier...

Just another satisfied customer, as they say A suggestion, not a request. Something else in what is a very useful range of of locos. One thing it would also be nice to see would be a big Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST, but with the original cabs, not the more modern ones Bl00dy Stupid Jones announced. A Highland Terrier? Yet another contribution to the 'suggestions box' would be the Highland Railway Lochgorm Tank. This is an 0-6-0T with the same 6’ + 6’ wheelbase as a Terrier, but with slightly smaller 3’7” wheels, which I think are the size of the B2 Peckett's. And ex-LSWR Ilfracombe Goods had similar second lives. What the discussion sparked by Brother Nearholmer has really brought out for me is the lack of suitable 'minor lines' tender engines in general and four-coupled passenger types, boths tank and tender for minor lines. One needs to be imaginative. For instance, just looking at Norfolk, I find the Beattie Well tank gives me a reasonable match to the GER No.1 Class tender 2-4-0, while the Oxford Dean Goods, if converted to a 2-4-0 gives you the couple wheels for a Crewe Type 2-4-0, as ran on the MGN. There will be other such happy coincidences yet to be discovered.

Not that I am bursting for a Barry Railway engine, but the Class E was a Hudswell Clarke design, so could be supplied to any user. My question is, can the Hornby W4 Peckett wheels be swapped in to the Hornby Terrier chassis? The W4 has the right size wheels (3' 3 1⁄2"), whereas the Terrier has the right w/b (6'+6'). The Barry examples (5) were supplied 1889-91. In 1909 one was converted to an 0-4-2 by having its rear rods remioved and used on passenger work. 2 of the class survived long enough to be Swindonised. Pictures in various states are in the RCTS volume, while another picture and a drawing are in Russell. Let me know if they are of use and I can get scans to you if you don't have access to these volumes.

Well, 1902, which puts it at the mid point of Q construction. Further, standard Qs to 1914 had, I think, 12' w/bs, wheels evenly spaced, like the Terrier donor chassis for the Oak Hill Works kit. Save for 3 exceptions, the class was built like that until 1914, when shorter W/b became standard. Any LR-esque Q pre-Great War will, therefore, have the longer w/b and evenly spaced wheels. The Ls, in contrast, had characteristically unevenly spaced wheels. The larger problem is that generally Qs, like Ls, are supplied to contractors or industry in the first instance, and are not a characteristic type for LRs and minor lines and/or are likely to go thence relatively late. Whereas the Ls were more or less devoid of minor railway service (save for larger wheeled specials), the Qs are marginally more promising. The sole 'mainline' company example acquired new was used successively by the SER, SE&CR and SR as a works shunter at Ashford. Another Q appears to have been acquired second-hand by the Wrexham Mold & Connahs Quay Ry. in 1895, though what it used it for I have yet to discover. Also second-hand, the Port Talbot Railway & Docks acquired one in 1897, though perhaps only for dock shunting duties. The FY&NR example was supplied new to a contractor, so only entered minor line service in 1913. The famous Colonel Stephens's Hesperus, variously given as an N* and a Q, was not recognisably a Q after time spent with the Great Western, but in its original guise it was a proto-LR/minor line loco; new to a contractor, it seems soon after to have been inherited by the Narberth Road and Maenclochog Railway, a railway of light rails and steep gradients opened under a Board of Trade certificate in 1876. The Goole & Marshland LR had a Q, apparently from new in 1899. So, there seems to have been one pukka LR/minor line user of a standard Q pre-Great War. I think that's more than can be said for the standard L. * a domed Q precurser. The MS&LR had one, from the original owner, a contractor.

This one Supplied to Haydock Collieries, therefore a companion to the Haydock home-build Bellerophon announcedby KR Models.

In which case youandTom might consider the Hudswell Clarke side tanks supplied 1889-91 to the Barry Railway as its Class E. 6' + 6' with 3' 3 1/2" wheels (so a little smaller than the Peckett).

In Stephen's case, à la recherche des tables perdues!

Indeed, Gary, and thanks. I waited until a relatively reasonably priced Hornby A1 came up buy-it-now on Flea Bay. Lovely. I take it that the Hornby Peckett wheels are a straight swop for the Hornby Terrier's and that the Terrier rods are a compatible fit?

Photographs suggest to me Vignoles/FB without chairs. Out with the FB rail and PCB sleepers? As Brother Schooner pointed out: FYNR Robert Stephenson Not only but also: Manning Wardle Q Class For the ex-Manchester South Junction & Altrincham carriages, Bill Bedford's MS&LR carriage kits might bear fruit. For the 4 ex-LSWR 1870s coaches, you your friend would need the Metroplitan Carriage & Wagon carriages drawn up for the WNR (I need to have them printed).

Well you deserve to feel queasy after that!

Good news. Though last time I looked at these, they were quite expensive as Kernow commissions not subject to discounts. Things may have changed, though Flea Bay shows a range of c.100-120 squids, comparable with Hornby Terriers. Or GER. IIRC, the coupled wheel diameter and w/b of the Beattie Well Tank is very close to the Johnson-drawn, Sharp Stewart-built No.1 Class 'Little Sharpies'. While getting thin on the ground in the 1900s and extinct during the 1910s, it is feasible, if ageing, motive power for a minor line pre-Great War.

So a rung close to the WNR 'Nowt' would be the immediate answer. I mean, if such a thing existed RTR, I'd have one for WNR. The prototypical choice would seem to be second user engines from 'mainline' companies, or items from private builder's catalogues and adaptions thereof. OO Works' limited runs of the Irish J15 (effectvely a Beyer Peacock) and LSWR 330 Class (also a Beyer design) are expensive and now out of production, so probably don't really count as RTR for your purposes. Ah, 'cos Terrier is an obvious answer, though a bit too towards the LR rung. As disposals were turn of the century, that timing works for a pre-WW1 independent. MW L Class, not so much. Primarily supplied as a contractor's loco late 1800s. A few straight to industry before WW1, and others to industry as second user. Mainly still engaged in contracting. 3 'specials' with larger wheels (so not the RTR versions) to Northern LRs. Yes. While mainline company locos could find a second user in the form of an independent, the Terrier is the only example pertinent to your period that I can think of available RTR. I recall only two ending up on minor lines, but both as a result of being acquired by the military during the Great War. One stayed with the military, ending up on Catterick Camp Railway, and the other ultimately returned to SW lines under the Southern via the East Kent. Yes, was compiling a list of such as you posted. I suspect this is the best option. The Haydock loco you picture is essentially a mineral engine, but one could reimagine it fitted for pasenger use. So, the 3D print option using RTR donor chassis? This is not so much faff as a traditional kit, but will require assembly, details such as handrails, painting and lining, so hardly meeting your RTR brief, but perhaps the nearest your friend would get. The Peckett X Class looks like an industrial loco and is, though two were supplied to the Metropolitan Railway, but as shunters, which may be of little use. Recreation21 does a body on Shapeways, and Oak Hill Works (cherished parishioners) do one to fit a Hattons P class chassis. Another possible is the Fox Walker from Oak Hill. Although, again, an essentially industrial class, two went to the Great Yarmouth & Stalham Light Railway, later MGN. One, vacuum fitted, is owned by the WNR and allocated to the Wolfringham branch. Oak Hill's is the industrial version, so would need some conversion. Someone, RT Models IIRC, does a nice Peckett dome with Salter valves in lost wax cast brass. The donor chassis is the Electrotren 0-6-0. Next to an old Dapol/Hornby Terrier chassis, it's probably one of the least expensive RTR chassis options. Oak Hill's Fletcher Jennings J Class is a more expensive option given current prices for the Hornby Terriers (you'd need the A1 with the wooden brake blocks). I have decided the WNR needs one of these, BTW. At least one GWR 517 was sold out of service, as I recall, so that might justify popiing a Stafford Road 3D printed body on an old Hornby 14XX chassis. Finally, the Rother Valley Railway2-4-0s werespecifically intended as LR locos, so wrong rung, but a version of the body (in 'Oh Mr Porter!' guise) is produced by Buggleskelly Staion, but only for the Electrotren 0-6-0 chassis, so we are straying into freelance designs here. Conclusion? Well, you're not really seeing options at all for anything other than modest tank engines. There are not things such a Sharp Stewart, Beyer Peacock, Dubs or Vulcan tender engines of the 2-4-0, 0-4-2, 0-6-0 or 4-4-0 ilk available either in RTR or as suitable RTR donor chassis with 3D printed bodies available. The classes sold by that other great supplier of locos, until it was stopped(!) the LNWR I do not think are represented either. So, the question is whether your friend wants to freelance it. We talked on CA how similar the L&YR Radial (Bachmann) is to the similar Sharp Stewarts sold to the Netherlands. Something like a Hornby LNER J15 could be altered to represent a typical, yet non-specific, Victorian goods loco. I recall that Rev. Beale advocated the Taff Vale 0-6-2, available to him as a whitemetal kit, as a generic loco for the West Midland, so something in that spirit could be done with some of the RTR models. You might struggle for a suitably modestly proportioned 4-coupled passenger tender engine. Why am I still awake? Damn this rabbit hole. I

Almost certainly not. I am not even sure that a gas works is warranted. I suspect there is no street lighting and the station has oil lamps. As I understand it, whether a town had electricity largely depended on local efforts to commission a local power sttation. Regional power supply did not come in until after the Great War, with the National Grid not established until 1926. In the 1900s I think we are still operating under the regime created by the Electric Lighting Act of 1882, under which local authorities, and later private companies, were empowered, subject to obtaining an individual legislative Confirmation Order, to set up their own electricity undertakings. We can track the granted of the Confirmation Orders, but it is not neccessarily the case that such authority was exercised and electric power instituted. Over the border in Suffolk, Bury St Edmunds received its first Order in 1884, which gave powers to the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses to erect and maintain electric lines and works to supply electricity to certain streets within the Borough. The Order was conditional, however, upon works beginning within two years. This evidently did not happen. Having gained a further order in 1897, Bury opened its power station in 1900. Norwich gained its first Order in 1883. but this evidently did not proceed as it gained another Order in 1891 and finally opened its first power station only in 1893. Great Yarmouth, which gained an Order in 1890, followed in 1894. Norwich gained a further order in 1898, and I speculate that this expansion related to the introduction of trams there in 1900. Another Suffolk example, Ipswich gained its first Order in 1883, as one of the towns covered by the first Order under the 1882 Act, but evidently reqiuired a further one in 1891 and again in 1897. The first power station I have come across there so far dates from 1903 and was associated with the town's trams. Back in Norfolk, King's Lynn gained an order in 1896. Supplies of electricity started on 19 August 1899. This is relevant as means that the West Norfolk town of Bishop's Lynn can expect to be similar. Cromer gained an Order in 1899. Cromer is probably the nearest equivalent in terms of its resort town status to Birchoverham Next the Sea. When Cromer commissioned a power station, however, I do not know. Anyway,if we electrify Birchoverham Next the Sea, this resort town's power station is a suitable derstination for the sea-borne coal from Wolfringham Staithe, via BM. So, it looks like the West Norfolk port town of Bishop's Lynn and the resort town of Birchoverham Next the Sea are likely to have had electricity by 1905, while two real places served by the WN, Bury and Norwich, also had electricity. The West Norfolk market towns of Achingham (Fakenham) and Birchoverham Market are, frankly, likely to be on town gas. Places this size and smaller are unlikely to be on electricity until the Grid is established in the '20s and '30s. For example, Watton, a town in Norfolk's Breckland district, did not retire its (gas) lamp lighter until 1932. Both options are possible. I like the idea oif making a big thing of BM as a livestock market, which argues for a large visible dock with the market itself seen beyond. As the livestock trains only come and go on market days, I think I could tolerate the shunting!

Not at all. On the substantive issue, while I would be very sorry to see Scotland leave the Union and I suspect that would play about as well for Scotland as BREXIT has for the UK, that is very much a matter for the voters of Scotland and not, therefore, a debate for me to enter. What I have a distaste for are populists, and nationalists are the worst sort of those, and de facto one-party states, neither of which are good for democracy IMHO. As to the individuals alluded to, we do not know what is behind Sturgeon's fall from power, but we could all see what a thug Salmond is and we should judge a man who, while still engaging in Scottish politics, was happy to be a paid mouth-piece of the Kremlin, so, frankly, f- him. Rant for the Day being my, so far, unsuccessful Radio 4 pitch.

Whereas, north of the border, the fishiest names are salmond and sturgeon.

We have, split between two topics, touched on the 1860s Oldbury carriages of the Isle of Wight Railway. These are made in 4mil by Matt Wickham, if I understand correctly the gentleman who is probably best known for his excellent depiction of the Bluebell Railway: Horsted Keynes The kits are listed here Fortunately, we have a restored example, and Matt has had access and been able to check measurements (the drawings in the Oakwood volume are not dimensionally reliable): Here we have Matt Wickham's own build of one of his prints: By way of explanantion, the 1864 Oldburys were supplied providing First and Second Class accommodation only. I purchased an extra print to use for the WNR; this carriage is an IWR 3-compartment First (used for the WNR as a First/Second Composite). The real IWR Composites are as the preserved vehicle above, with the First Class passengers enjoying salon style accommodation. There were also 4-compartment Seconds and 3-compartment Brake Seconds, with birdcages. There were 4 of the latter, all of which were later converted to 'passenger luggage vans' (I assume brakes). Three were converted as per the vehicle shown below, with the birdcage flattened (so not a feature that would have been built as such, because the raised portion of the roof now appears to have no function), and the other to a slightly different design. The models so far produced represent the later Victorian condition. One of the problems in being restricted to these coaches is that there was an 1880s generation of Oldburys and the two types were often seen mixed in services. The train below, showing the Vectis prints cleaned up, but not assembled, and, based on published period photographs, is a reasonably credible selection of carriages (ignore the order in which I have plonked them down, I don't have the prototype pictures to hand). The one without the body is to have a planked luggage van body built for it. Looking at pictures of the period, this was a regular feature of IWR trains and the underframe appears to be a match for the Oldburys. At the other end is one of the 3-compartment Brake Seconds as converted to a passenger luggage brake. Ideal motive power is one of the Beyer Peacock 2-4-0Ts: Here the Golden Arrow Productions kit

2024... Good luck!

I am prepared to pay for transfers to be printed. The WNR already has carriage and wagon transfers courtesy of Ian MacCormac. Given the number of WNR locos, it is worthwhile and more economic than with one or two models. My problem is this; it would be prohibitively expensive, even if I could find someone to do it, to draw up the lining schemes for all the locos. My thought is that I must learn to do so. I can attempt to print my own as a check that the idea is working, but I think I will need the quality of professionally printed transfers. Nothing bodged about you models, and I am wondering if the West Norlk should have a Fletcher Jennings J Class; it's a lovely prototype and I think it would suit an elaborate lining scheme such as the WNR's.

It may interest you learn that this luggage brake, a conversion by the IWR of the original Oldbury Brake Second, was kindly drawn up and added to the range by the manufacturer, Matt Wickham, at the request of Yours Truly. I also asked for the chassis for these Oldbury carriages to be made available seperately, which was also assented to, in order to facilitate the scratch-building of a planked luggage van, also seen operating with these Oldburys on the IWR. The instructions/construction video for these carriages is essential viewing and there are transfers made for them. On receipt it will strilke you how very wide the bodies are. Matt Wickham has, however, checked this against the prototype; they are every bit as wide as the models suggest. Matt, you will gather from this, is a perfect gentleman. The quality of the prints he produces is very smooth and crisp.