Edwardian

Following the announcement to that effect yesterday, I had an email today confirming that my pre-orders will no longer be honoured (save the exclusives, so hopefully the Genesis coaches are still bound for the WNR) and will be at some stage removed from my account. Last night was a profitable one for Rails.

I suspect that's the nub of it. Whether it would have been possible to make all parts of the motion work, and work as they should, at scale must be very doubtful indeed. This is largely why I'm pretty sanguine about the compromises, and have ordered two of the beasties. Also I'm not personally bothered about what KR have said, but that's only because I have dug a little deeper than the fluff and made sure I have understood the posts about this issue made by the Stationmaster and others, so I feel I make my purchase eyes wide open. It's the "don't look up!" mentalists that get on my t1ts!

I shall await PMs, then, knuckle duster in my pocket!

Sorry, but I'm not going to put up with this nonsense. I did not say I did not like it. I did not say I would not buy it. have said, repeatedly, that I am content to buy this - in fact, I have two on pre-order - including in the post you are responding to, so a good start is not to misrepesent what someone else has said. It's just manners, really. Further, I have been relatively generous in the past on the subject of KR's clear over-statements. Your evident gifts of divination do not, however, excuse KR from making claims that were objectively misleading and led many to expect more of this model then they will get. My point is simply this, we do at least now know what this model can and cannot deliver. It is important, I feel, that anyone exposed to the 'sales puff' who has not seen how the prototype actually moves, at least understands that the model will not deliver fully working Gooch valve gear despite what KR has suggested. The reality is that about half the motion works but not as the prototype, and the other half is static. Given the overstated claims by the manufacturer, it seemed important to me that these had facts set against them so that potential customers can make an informed choice. Why that should rattle anyone's cage is unclear. If you want to debate with me, preferably do it off the forum, but come at me with better.

Continental locomotives have ever been more realistically (therefore, higher) priced, no doubt for good reason. What I think you seem to object to, however, is the idea that KR might should be brought to task for not making fully working valve gear for the price point of £160, assuming KR was capable of doing so at any price. Yet I do not recall anyone here saying such a thing. What people have mainly said is that to advertise a loco as having fully working Gooch/Stephenson valve gear and then to produce one that hasn’t is problematic. A poor product that is not as described is not excused from being either of those things by its relative cheapness. The claim was that the valve gear would be fully working… …ah, but I see you’ve already thought of that! No, we really can't. It's quite clear what the natural and ordinary meaning of those words is. Indeed, and no one suggested that anything would once the EPs were out. But it's a strange thing to say; would you not, say, ever critique a film on the basis that, now it's been made, there's no point? And to come! But is that how you live your life, to judge each new thing by the standard of the least adequate thing you can find to compare it with. Indeed, if so, I weep for you. Oh your prophetic soul! Like saying "work event" when you meant "party". Easily done, though. So, it’s OK that you think it’s fine because it’s cheap and you always thought it would be a bit rubbish, but it’s also fine to point out that it could have been so much more! As I have said, I'll accept the compromise and buy the thing. Would I have been happier to pay more if the thing had been better, had in fact been as advertised? Yes, of course. But we do not have that option. Buy it, don't buy it, but don't let anyone tell you that what you're seeing as it chugs round your layout is the motion of Gooch valve gear. It's nothing like.

Well, Locomotion I will buy. Someone had to tackle it in time for the Bi-Centenary. Based on Rocket, I'm sure that Hornby can deliver here. I think this is the "as preserved" condition, but frankly that will do. It will be good to see the protoype restored to its rightful place in Darlington in due course. It would be a bit odd, though, if Locomotion appeared on its own, with no effort at S&DR stock. So, I wonder if for 2025 will see an announcement of the early S&D chaldrons (if not, there was once a whitemetal kit and they are simple enough scratch-builds, and drawings have been published) and a dandy cart, complete with horse! Also the crude covered passenger wagon and the horse-drawn stage coach. EDIT: Accurascale chaldrons are not the right period for 1825/Locomotion (see the style modelled below), so it would be a shame if Hornby used their existence as an excuse not to bother - mind you, when one reflects on what Hornby thinks L&M wagons looked like...! Darlington MRC, many moons ago, modelled the S&D for the North Road (Head of Steam) museum in Darlington: Given this year's planned release of a preseved 1840s carriage in the form of the 'Queen Adelaide' carriage, I cannot help wonder if Hornby will also be tempted by the two 1840s Stockton & Darlington composites? Anyway after the exciting announcement of Locomotion at the head of Andy's post, there was a depressing amount of the usual tat and retreads to scroll through, though as none of it is a period of interest, I don't really have any view. It is interesting to see the continuation of last year's neglect of the pre-Grouping scene (as opposed to the 'pioneering' era). Hornby really has left this whole market segment free for Rapido to move into and dominate. Bachmann does a little very slowly and Dapol keeps a steady flow, but Rapido is rapidly colonising this space with only Accurascale as a challenger here. Meanwhile, Hornby does nothng. Indeed, I cannot recall Hornby producing anything worth a pre-Grouper's notice since it introduced its superlative little Pecketts; what a false dawn that was. Back to the 2024 releases, and we're back to the Earlies. It is good to see L&MR loco and stock being sold separately for the first time, though the Tiger model remains a really odd interpretation of that prototype, or, indeed any 1840s loco of a similar ilk, and the 'coal wagon' remains a short length of old rope. Joy comes with some new-tooled early stock, and both the releases of the 'Queen Adelaide' carriage and the 'Second Class' coach look well worth investigating and I am very much interested in these. It is great to see a London & Birmingham Railway carriage (1842). I don't suppose Hornby will do anything but this solitary preserved vehicle for the L&B, but it is, nevertheless, good to see even one RTR example of such early stock.

Deeps, it would be good to see pictures of the build in due course. Yes, my thought was that Hattons Ps may become more expensive and harder to obtain. I do have an interest in the Haydock version simply because it would make a stable mate for Bellerophon, but I have no plans to model a colliery system in the North West, so it would just be a case of complementary stock on a Rule No.1 session on whatever working layout I may acheive. In contrast, I went for the MW H and the Fletcher Jennings because, though nothing on the WN is urgent, at least I could add them to the roster for an active (if glacially slow) project.

But I'm not a vole, I am ...

I don't think there is anything I want, save for the pre-ordered batch 2 Genesis coaches, which I understand will probably still be honoured (due May on last information) and the Bluebell P Class, which may not now be produced (but an indulgent extravagance, the loss of which cannot, therefore, be too greatly regretted). Sad news, and I should have liked to see the Genesis short bogie coaches produced.

Yes, an unpleasant bombshell in a number of ways, with concerning implications

Very sad news. My experience of Hattons as a retail customer was always good and their exclusive models were both hugely useful and to a very high standard. They were also a pleasure to work with and I trust someone else will take on the range and, perhaps, the products that were still only in development. Thoughts go to all those affected.

Ditto, and like you and Stephen, having been involved in advising on the Genesis coaches, and - I suppose it's OK to say this now - advising on the proposed generic short bogie coaches, it is sad to see the loss of the Hattons exclusive range, as well as the demise of a very friendly and efficient retailer. Sad day for the hobby and thoughts to all those affected.

I think a skilled manufacturer should have been able to do a better job with Bellerophon's motion than KR has managed. That said, the Ibertren model did not have to cope with the extremely long and spindly radius rod on Bellerophon, which might have proved a rod too far for any manufacturer.

Credit to Schooner of this parish for drawing attention to this model and this video. For non-Spanish speakers, I would suggest go all the way to 30.14, watch the motion of this small H0 tank engine on the rolling road and ask yourself why KR's Bellerophon does not do this? Compare this with Phil Parker's rolling road video, which shows only about half the motion moving at all and thin not correctly. I gratefully adopt the Stationmaster's point that the radius rod is very long on the Haydock locomotive and that it seems over ambitious to have expected to produce a working version. In contrast, this Ibertren loco and the Fleischmann example previously posted do not have to cater with this feature. Here above we see it as a static, black plastic, component, and it would have been a huge challenge to make such a long spindly rod a working component, thus the Stationmaster mused: "I have long wondered if they were kidding themselves. let alone customers, when they stated that the valve gear would be fully working because it would have required some very precise, and strong, miniatiure components in order to achieve it." As I say, I'll accept the compromise and buy the model, but part of me will always think it should have been possible to get closer to prototypically working motion, even if 100% functioning motion was an impossible dream.

Yes, and I note that the Ibertren version actually has an outside cylinder moulded to the body to reflect this protoype, yet, of course, the Bachmann Junior chassis stolidly ignores this! I never paid more than £50 for these Elctrotren units, I am amazed at how stupid expensive they have become; may as well buy a Heljan 1361 clsass for the chassis.

Yes, I just think it's more about identifying the attractive models and combinations thereof, that people will go for, whether it fits with any pre-conceived area of interest or not.

That's to over-think, I suggest. I mean, 'yes', but so what? No one models the Huntley and Palmer Reading works, very few model the Isle of Wight Central Railway. Two examples of Hornby train packs, the latter with (inferior) generic coaches. Few may model the preservation scene, yet the Hattons P Class in blue is on its second run. It's attractive and collectable, as an individual model and, I suggest, probably no less in an exclusive train pack.

Thinking of how gorgeous the teaking on the Genesis GNR carriages turned out, and with a second running in the offing of ... I am surprised we are not seeing a train pack. The 4-wheel brake third and the 4-wheel 4-compartment coach in teak, with oil lamps would make a nice little set with the Bluebell P.

Do this, go on, just do this ....

Yes, Hattons are on a second run of that livery. I realise that this blue livery is a preservation prototype livery for P Class No.323, but I imagine most purchasers simply reacted to the fact that it's stupid-pretty and well-nigh irresistible. I have no possible use for one, yet only just managed to resist the first run, only to succumb and pre-order the second. Would I buy a stupid-pretty blue O1 to go with? Obviously. Go on, you know you want one...

Posrscript on Bachmann Junior locos... Perhaps someone in Spain can confirm or deny, but I reckon that both locos in this Ibertren train set will prove to be using the Bachmann Junior 0-6-0 chassis.

Rarity may be a function of absolute numbers, but I suspect a significant factor is the extent to which they were quickly sold out on pre-order.