4069

20 hours ago, jointline said:

You're spot on of course!  I was confusing "ownership" with actual signals.  I loved the upper quadrants at Princes Risborough,  especially the up starter, which was a double junction signal, and it was the combination of these with the lower quadrants that made the whole place so interesting to model.  Much as I love lower quadrants the upper ones had a certain style! These all seem to have been replaced between 1962 and 1964,  but perhaps somebody has the correct date for the signal replacements. But I think there were no upper quadrants left at Risborough post 1964.

Nice pictures. The North box up starters went from UQ to LQ soon after the connection from up platform to up main was taken out of use around July 1957, so their LQ replacements were a bracket and a single post. I think it's likely that it was at the same time as the splitting down homes at North box were renewed as LQs, in mid-58 as far as I can judge coinciding with the new frame in North box.

I'm not sure whether there was a complete clearout of UQs before the 1968 remodelling, In the second edition of  Jenkins' book, page 190, there is a picture of a 9F passing North box, dated 26 September 64, in which it's possible to see that the bay starting signal is still UQ. However, the accuracy of Jenkins' captions can be very poor. There's no doubt that after the 1968 resignalling all the signals were WR. 

Stuart J

On 20/03/2020 at 14:03, jointline said:

You couldn't run different periods at different running sessions, as the LMR did a lot of resignalling.

Are you sure? The LMR had control of the Joint Line from 1975 until about 1990, and didn't replace a single signal until the total route modernisation started.

What makes it difficult to mix periods if you are modelling the northern half of the line (West Wycombe to Ashendon Jn) is that the GCR/LNER were responsible for maintenance from opening, so many of the original GWR-pattern signals were replaced with upper quadrants over the years. On nationalisation, the WR gained control and lower quadrants came back steadily, so that by the time of the transfer to the LMR in 1975 there were no upper quadrants left. No such problem for the Northolt Jn - High Wycombe section, which was under GWR/WR maintenance throughout.

4 hours ago, malc60015 said:

 

That picture is described elsewhere as dating from 1948, which looks much more likely than 1926, judging by the lady's costume and the oil drum.

2 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Wasn't there something about not crossing between vehicles less then 50' apart in the 1950 Rule Book ? 

Yes there was,  and in the 1972 Rule Book, but there isn't any more- and that's the point of the advice.

Stuart J

RAIB

On 01/03/2020 at 11:45, adb968008 said:

Thanks,

 

Ive looked there before, though I suspect its archive is incomplete, when looking for other events... 

 

The Railways Archive site is complete for twentieth century Board of Trade/Ministry of Transport accident reports (and getting there steadily with the nineteenth century ones). Bear in mind that at any time there were only three or four Inspecting Officers, so only the most serious events were the subject of published official investigations. If you can get hold of a copy of the Inspectorate's Annual Report for the year you are interested in, you will find brief descriptions of many more events than ever appeared between blue covers. If that doesn't produce what you are looking for, the archives of the local press are probably your last resort, if your county holds them.

Stuart J

When crossover 26 was removed, signal 25 would have been taken out as you have marked, but 27 would have stayed as it also applies to movements into the yard. It should have been moved back to be adjacent to the toe of 24 points.

The arm below signal 34 is the distant for Swithland.

The reference to "compensator point" may refer to the location of a compensator in the rodding run to 15B points (the main line connection to the down siding). For advice on compensators and where to put them, see 

Another memory- spotting at WFJ, probably during the Easter holidays shortly before 86209 was removed, a gricer arrived from somewhere way up north who announced that he had copped all the 86s except one- which was lying at the bottom of the bank just down the road. Stuck in my mind at the time as an example of dedication to one's hobby taken to extremes, but since then I've seen much worse!

On 25/02/2020 at 04:38, jools1959 said:

86209 was involved in a fatal collision between Watford and Bushey on the 23rd January 1975 whilst working the 1S18 Euston- Glasgow “Night Caledonian”.  It and the front two coaches slid down the steep embankment where it stayed for 4 months, recovered by road and taken to Crewe works, arriving 20th April 1975.

I make that less than three months.

The coaches were there unattended long enough for some of the local youth to explore them thoroughly and remove the light fittings for re-use elsewhere. I can't think who that could have been

16 hours ago, Coppercap said:

 

Not quite in accordance with the original subject, but still a good one.

Actually, having checked the dates, I was wrong:  that part of the M40 opened, as an isolated section between the present J2 and J4, in March 1969, and the railway closed a little over a year later, on 4 May 1970.

For a really short life, look no further than the M40 bridge over the Maidenhead - High Wycombe line, which closed before the motorway opened:

On 12/12/2019 at 15:44, The Stationmaster said:

Thanks Phil - I was obviously looking in the wrong place (I blame the index, again).  The interesting question of course is when did TC indications first begin to appear on diagrams?  The earliest I can trace with any certainty are in the 1930s when it appears that the original single white light to indicate an occupied track circuit was first used - it could possibly have been used even earlier than that.  The two red lights in a single lozenge shaped cut out would seem to have come some time later.  I suspect that Wolvercote Jcn might not be a very good example as it was a wartime job being altered in 1942 when the Down Loop from Oxford North Jcn was added.

 

Incidentally the change of style would not have depended on the size of the installation but would have been governed by the date on which the Drawing Office Instruction was issued.  One of the biggest losses to the student of GWR signalling is that a comprehensive list of Drawing Office Instructions - let alone example of them - never seems to have come to light where they're accessible the enthusiast world.  They were the GWR, and subsequently WR, equivalent of Signalling Principles and also covered such things as interlocking standards but over the years I have only learnt a few oddments from the people who used them and have never seen any of the written versions.

In my experience the best source for details of GWR/WR diagram practice is the Signalling Record Society Signalling Paper "Signal Box Diagrams of the GWR and BR(WR)" by Alan Price, which was written in the 1980s by a Reading Works insider and is still available via the SRS website https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/pubpapers.php .  He says that the first GWR illuminated diagrams were installed in 1927 as part of the Engine & Carriage lines resignalling at Paddington, and were drawn at Reading although they owed some elements of style to Westinghouse practice. Page 92 of Vaughan's Great Western Signalling has a 1932 picture of Westbourne Bridge box with such a diagram.

Stuart J

The current guidance/requirements document is at https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/2158/level_crossings_guidance.pdf , and the "second train coming" conditions at an AHB have not changed; see paragraph 2.80. 

Stuart J

You are partially correct. Dealing with current practice, "Call attention" (1 beat) precedes every other signal except for "train entering section" (two beats) and the various emergency codes (which I'm assuming you aren't interested in for modelling purposes). Going back in time, the GWR and BR(WR) did not use "call attention" before "train out of section"  (two pause one) until the various regional differences in bellcodes were eliminated in 1972. A further GWR variation was that the "train out of section" signal was not acknowledged.

In standard working, a signalman will offer a train forward on receipt of "train entering section" from the box  in rear. However, if sections are short, trains may be offered on immediately they are accepted. This will be specified, when necessary, in  the special instructions for each signal box  (called "footnotes" on the Western).

Stuart J

I've spent some time looking at those pictures in Hosegood's book, and I don't believe the date can be correct, despite being repeated several times. The staff uniforms look more like 1920s. For me the clincher is the front view of the train waiting to leave: the Castle has a small tender and the upper lamp iron on top of the smokebox, which together put it pre-1930. I respectfully suggest that the date is 1927, not 1937.

19 hours ago, melmerby said:

The guy in the hat certainly looks post WW2.

I'll have to disagree with you there- that is definitely a pre-war hat. Late 40s style was for a lower crown.

If they were made as per that picture, they wouldn't be much like the originals as seen here

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:D1023_Western_Fusilier_in_Paddington.jpg

The lettering is much too big.

Still, you pays yer money...

As shown by those two lovely prototype examples, it's worth cropping the picture and adjusting it so that the line the train is running on is absolutely horizontal.

22 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Reflecting that maintaining a sophisticated and complex model such as Maindee East might be too difficult for most museums or or similar institutions (viz. Heckmondwyke and the NRM), it might be better offered as a diorama. In which case a location with strong GWR connections could offer the best opportunity to find a suitable home, such as Didcot or Pendon.

Pendon does not want or have space for any additional layouts, and I suspect that Didcot would not be interested, especially in a model that is not of a real place.

The RCTS Green Book has a picture of Humorist in February 1948, clearly in apple green.

Looks like the cover displayed above was a proof. I now have a copy of the book and the caption in question has been amended to make it clear that it is the disc signal that is being described.

I can thoroughly recommend the book. Those who collect GWR eccentricities will be particularly delighted by the backing distant signal (found at Aberdare High Level in 1922) illustrated on page 58, complete with perforated fish-tailed arm.

Yer fixed distant is upside down...

11 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

The carriage sidings is Clapham Jn yard seen from approximately where the road entrance to the yard is located now with the NR DU office on the right, that shed was demolished in the 1980's ....................

Thanks. I wondered about Clapham Yard, but I don't remember that shed well enough to be certain.

...and the wobbly letters and numbers on the wagon.

I reckon this is one of the most bizarre combinations to carry passengers, when you step back and think about it:

GWR steam loco in bogus LT livery, electric loco, 1960s SR unpowered EMU in fake teak livery, 1892 vintage four-wheel coach, and diesel loco.

Great fun though!

19 hours ago, jetmorgan said:

Managed to get around to transferring to DVD an episode of Scotland Yard (Talking Pictures TV...as usual) that had a numerous railway scenes. The "White Cliffs Mystery aka The Matrion Case" apparently on the line between Seahaven and Waterloo. I think Seahaven is a made up place as I can't find anywhere named that on any line to Waterloo. The main station featured in the scenes is called Brandon or Brampton but again I think that is a made up name and perhaps someone can identify the station from the pics. Also noted are some carriage sidings which it wouldn't surprise me if it was Clapham Junction.

The tunnel and junction is Salisbury Tunnel Junction, the through station with the long straight platforms and concrete footbridge is Grateley, and "Seahaven" is Hastings. Not sure about the carriage sidings.