turbos

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

Thats ok, the chances of me exhibiting at Model Rail Scotland are vanishingly slim.

 

But seriously, the photos I've seen of the Balerno coaches are old, poor quality, and I personally would be hard pressed to SEE the difference. Compare them to a drawing, and thats different, obviously - but compared to how they look in photographs, they're fine by me.

All model trains are for our enjoyment, if they tick that box then that is what matters.

My main grumbles about the BR Crimson 4 wheelers are that Hattons claim they worked on the Balerno branch in BR livery even though it closed to passengers in 1943! They remained in use on other Edinburgh suburban services until withdrawal around 1951.

There are many beautiful pre-grouping Liveries that have never been made and was supposed to be the purpose of the ‘Genesis’ coaches but Hattons decide to use their finite production to make a short lived, incomplete, numerically small and only used in a very small geographic area 4 wheel coach livery. Only one rake is believed to have received this livery a couple of years before withdrawal. 

I would have preferred to see BR Crimson in Batch 4 or 5 to help fill any production gaps.

A few pictures and notes of Balerno Branch coaches here https://caley.com/assets/pdfs/balernoPn.pdf
 

Brian.

11 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

They're generic coaches so they are unlikely to correspond with any prototype. Hattons have tried to avoid using the numbers used on similar stock.

The Batch 2 BR Crimson 4 wheel coaches are based on the ‘Balerno Branch’ 4 wheel coaches, even using the correct numbers, but missing the First class coach. Although it’s stretching the ‘Generic’ credibility dressing up mid to late 1800s carriages as 1920s carriages.

Caley Coaches do etched brass kits of the CR Balerno Branch 4 wheelers if you want carriages that actually look like the Balerno Branch carriages. I’ve no links with Caley Coaches other than a satisfied customer.  https://caley.com/balerno.php
 

Brian. 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one guilty of one (or more!) of those as a youthful indiscretion. I finished mine in first LMS livery (per the box art) but did this wagon actually survive to the grouping?

 

 

Ah, that confuses the Midland picture since two types, the Leeds Forge, D346, and the with queenpost trussed type, D347, had plate frame bogies... 

 

It is also possible that the diagrams in Midland Wagons are printed in the wrong order and hence mis-labelled - there is at least one other place where that is a source of confusion. 

 

The Midland went on to use diamond bogies for 15 ton tramcar trucks, D318 of 1904, 25 ton trollies, D642 of 1911, 25 ton timber trucks, D827 of 1915, 25 ton trolleys (RECTANK) of 1918, and the 40 ton trolleys - PARROT or similar, but not for a number of other bogie wagons, e.g. the 35 ton rail wagons, D340 of 1907. The Midland Railway Study Centre has Drg. 4143 for the bogie used on the timber trucks [Item 88-D1929].

 

Is the information you have given all in Mike Williams' Caledonian Wagons books or have you used other sources?

The Mike Williams Caledonian Wagons books are the definitive bible on the subject, the problem is there’s just so much info on them, a great read nonetheless.

Is it possible that the Midland American Bogie Minerals are the wagons rejected by the Caledonian?

I suspect that the vast majority of Ratio Peco Parkside LMS (CR) Bogie Mineral Wagon kit were painted as per the box art. Although it’s possible it did carry this livery, it’s very doubtful. By the Grouping (and remember the Caledonian wasn’t officially grouped until July 1923) the sole Dia.50 50 ton mineral wagon would be nearing the end of its designed life. There is no record of it being converted to vacuum brake and it isn’t listed in the LMS wagon renumbering. It may have even been scrapped for its valuable bogies before 1923 or have entered department use by then.

Brian. 

3 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

There is a brass kit for the Caley bogie wagon. It used to be sold by Dragon model.  I'm not sure if it's still available but thecartwork is on my laptop  as I did some work on it for Chris Badten some years ago.

 

Jamie

I was vaguely aware of a kit of the Caledonian Leeds Forge bogie mineral, I don’t know much about it as I’ve never seen one. The main difference between the Caledonian and Midland version were the doors, Caledonian used cupboard style, Midland used hinged drop down. Quite easy to produce both types in one kit, if it was to be reissued now would be as good a time as any with the recent release of the Caledonian 812 class locomotive.

Brian.

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Brian, that's most interesting context. I was aware of the Caledonian experiment but not how closely it was related to the Midland's Leeds Forge wagons.

 

I believe records for the Birmingham RC&W Co. survive, in the Staffordshire County Records, so it ought to be possible to trace the wagons built by them for the Midland, but the "American" ones remain a mystery.

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a number of drawings, one, Drg. 1555, is a GA of the D347 type with queenpost truss underframe that gives sufficient detail for an accurate model; it gives no further clues as to the builder [MRSC 88-D1804]. The others are for modifications to the doors and buffers and drawgear of the D348 type, with diamond rather than plate frame bogies; Drg. 1897 is the GA [MRSC 88-D1809]. Just to confuse matters, the Carriage & Wagon Register lists Drg. 1897 as referring to the "American" type. So it's possible that in Midland Wagons the relationship between builders and diagrams is out of order and the wagon spotted in the Loughborough photo is in fact an example of the Birmingham batch. That might make more sense, if the diamond bogie was an American innovation, with the home-grown wagons having plate frame bogies?

In early 1901 the Caledonian ordered twenty 30 ton bogie mineral wagons from the American Car and Foundry Coy. They arrived in sections and were assembled on the dockside but were found to be of such poor workmanship that they had to be dismantled and practically rebuilt. In July 1902 the Caledonian board decided to ‘decline to take the wagons under any circumstances’. Even after the intervention of an MP to find a solution to take the wagons the Caledonian still declined. A USA historic wagon group may be the best source of the information you’re looking for, the Caledonian American wagon experience may be of help.

Unsurprisingly the Caledonian also had thirty of its Dia.54 30 ton bogie minerals built by the Birmingham RC&W these also had the diamond framed bogies, only the Leeds Forge supplied wagons had the plate frame bogies. 
The Caledonian used the diamond framed bogie on the one off Dia. 50 of 1899 50 ton bogie mineral available in 00 scale as a kit from Ratio Peco Parkside (as pictured).

Brian.

2 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Pile of rusty wheels? Skips full of scrap metal?

Wheelsets even in scrap condition are too valuable an asset to be left ‘in a pile of rusty wheels?’ Scrap metal goes in the same skip or wagon that worn brake blocks go in. There’s usually an out of the way corner by the store where unused, out of date, obsolete or general crap gets dumped. 
For the 1980s, you’ll need a well worn unofficial path to a nearby pub or club!

Brian.

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

The second spot, on p.69, is a real scoop. It's a W.L. Good photo, taken on 18 May 1929, of 700 Class No. 2645 piloting a Midland 4F on an up mineral train near Loughborough. The leading vehicle is a rare bird: an ex-Midland steel 30 ton bogie coal wagon; from the queenpost trussing, I believe this is one of the "American" batch, D347 [Midland Wagons Vol. 1, p. 101]. There were seventy of these high capacity wagons [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 77-11822], thirty built by Leeds Forge in 1902 [Locomotive Magazine, Nov. 1902, pp. 191-2], the balance being divided between Birmingham RC&W Co. and whoever the "American" supplier was, but how many from each seems not to be known. The posed view of a Leeds Forge wagon shows it in Loco Coal use:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 64098.]

 

In the Loughborough photo, there's a hint of lettering above the M of LMS which could be LOCO - it does seem likely that these high capacity wagons would have remained in loco coal traffic.

The MR Leeds Forge 30 Ton Bogie Mineral wagon pictured is very similar to the Caledonian Railway Diagram 54 30 Ton Bogie Mineral wagon, the first 50 were built in 1901. The second batch of 50 from Leeds Forge for the Caley were delivered between July 1902 and April 1903. The MR order was built between the two Caley orders in 1902. The Caley had 370 30 Ton Bogie Minerals built by seven different wagon builders, this was the largest fleet of this type of wagon. Other Pre-Grouping Railways also operated this type of wagon, including the GWR and GNR. 
The GER trialled a 30 ton bogie mineral from Leeds Forge in August 1901, the trial was unsuccessful as the wagon supplied only had two doors on each side making unloading slow. This design had already been rejected by the Caley when ordering their fleet.

RCH drew up specs. for 30 to 40 ton bogie mineral wagons, the first drawings appearing in December 1901.

Brian.

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Happy new year to all, are there any updates on delivery status of the Genesis stuff?

The Hattons Genesis Coaches web page is updated whenever there is any news. They should start appearing for sale in March 2022.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/genesis

Brian.

On 29/12/2021 at 12:26, Scottish-Exile said:

Got mine too. The blue (as preserved) is much darker than I thought, and is almost black and matt like in appearance. Not like the pictures above. Must need to be well lit to bring out that shine. Half thinking now I should have got the as-built with the lighter, more familiar Calley Blue.

 

Anyway, it will only ever be sitting in a display case so overall I'm happy.

Jonathan AG posted earlier in this thread a picture of the Bachmann/Rails ‘as currently preserved’ 828 next to a lamp painted from the same tin of paint that the actual 828 was painted with. 
It’s blue, it’s the correct shade of blue.

Brian.

3 hours ago, Matabiau said:

I ordered mine back in February 2018, it is still in the pre-order list on "my account" on the rails website. No sign of it having been sent despite updating my payment details just before Christmas.

It appears that orders for outwith the UK are being processed last as they would not have arrived by Christmas. By prioritising UK orders, most UK buyers received theirs before Christmas.

I’m sure yours will be dispatched very soon, they really are worth all the years of waiting.

Brian.

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

And far from all of those:

 

 

"Greater Britain Class 2-2-2-2 No. 528 Richard Moon is posed in the distance on the Northampton down line with 2pm corridor stock on 13th June 1897." Assuming Philip Millard's identifications given in the caption are correct and the last three carriages are WCJS 45 ft vehicles, they are brand new at this date - or, according to Jenkinson, not yet built. The dining saloons and 42 ft carriages were built 1892/3; one wonders what attention they would have received in the interval. One has to remember that throughout that period the 2pm stock had only been exposed to the clean exhaust of the compound Jeanie Deans (or her sisters), not the foul-mouthed spewing-forth of incompletely combusted fuel from some thrashed Precursor; at least, south of Crewe. [Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways image lnwrrm3318.]

The Caledonian Railway cleaned it carriages sides at least every second day but never cleaned roofs or underframes, I’d expect the LNWR had a similar regime as I’ve never seen a picture of a particularly dirty LNWR passenger carriage. WCJS carriage sides were probably cleaned every day. 
Occasionally I’ve seen a single vehicle with a lighter coloured roof in a pre-grouping photo but only publicity photos have a completely white roofed train.

Brian.

In the 1970s the Seafield Colliery to Longannet Power Station MGR trains used three Class 20 throughout, two at one end and one at the other. Double manned so all three were powering on the journey and avoided running round and a full brake test.

Brian.

My ‘As built 828’ arrived on Wednesday, run in on Thursday with no issues. I’m really happy with it, the livery is stunning. I just need to push on with building a rake for it to haul.

Brian.

3 hours ago, CCarmichael said:

Having already asked about suitable rolling stock, I was wondering whether the Hatton’s Genesis in LNWR livery would be a good alternative. If so, could someone recommend a suitable formation?

 

Or shall I wait and see if they do the proposed CR livery as part of the 3rd batch they are thinking of doing

The recent Hornby 4 and 6 wheel coaches LNWR livery looks more Caledonian than LNWR, with a wee bit of work they can look OK.

Brian.

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What's missing is a "train set" approach, such as Triang had over half a century ago - engine plus a couple of appropriate carriages (within the limits of the economics of the age). At the very least, an appropriate goods brake could be produced together with each goods engine.

This has been available for quite a while.

Manufacturers prefer to have an actual prototype they can 3d scan as this picks up some subtleties not always apparent in drawings. After 3d scanning they then adjust the scan to remove ripples and bulges from flat or smooth surfaces and make certain changes that scaling down and manufacturing require.

 I’m surprised Hornby have never produced any of the LNWR royal train carriages in the NRM collection, Hornby always seemed to have an obsession with producing anything slightly connected to royalty. Maybe we’ll see them in a future Locomtion special edition.

Brian.

25 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

While their may be a pent up demand for Pre-group RTR models, I don't believe it actually encouraging pre-group modelling to any significant degree. The RTR manufacturers have, not surprisingly,  concentrated on locos, but have largely ignored rolling stock. The "generic" carriages from Hornby and Hattons , beautifully painted as they are, don't fill the bill if you want accurate models to go with the locos. It is probably uneconomic to produce even a small selection of LNWR, CR, LSWR, etc.

 

Which is why pre-group modelling will remain the domain of those who are willing to create their models from the wide range of kits that are available.

 

 

Understandably rtr manufacturers are reticent about producing pre-grouping carriages, locomotives are a much easier sell with many bought by either collectors or railway modellers that aren’t too bothered about what it hauls, wagons have lower R&D and production costs, so are cheaper to bring to market. Carriages can have fairly high R&D and production costs without getting the sales and profits manufacturers require. If a manufacturer was going to dip its toe in to producing a rtr LNWR carriage a Picnic Saloon would be a good choice either a D77 or a D85. A Picnic Saloon has never been done in rtr and were widely travelled across the GB network. The Picnic Saloon Trusts superb D85 6 wheeler would make the R&D much easier and if a successful model, could be the basis of further 30’1” carriages.

Brian.

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

This may well be apocryphal, but the explanation I have seen somewhere for CR blue was that the paint was not bought in from a paint manufacturer, rather their paint shops mixed all their own paints as & when required, so concocted a witches brew of some official formula expressed in the form of 1 bucket of white lead to 1 bucket of tallow to 2 buckets of ....  Result being that it was all done rather approximately by eye and the shades of blue were therefore somewhat variable.  That together with the tendency of blue paints to fade and for soot to get absorbed onto the paintwork, so discolouration would occur over time 

It’s discussed in detail in the Caledonian Livery book by the late Jim McIntosh the evolution of Caley Blue from a dark to a light shade. It started with the light blue being applied for the Jubilee engines in 1897.

The ‘Blue Saloon’ Officers Saloon CR No.1 was painted in the two shades, above waist was in light blue, below the waist was in dark blue.
The beautifully detailed liveries applied to the Caley’s locomotives is not achieved by chucking a bit of this and that in a bucket and somehow amazingly getting it looking right, artisans do like a bit of leg pulling! Goods wagons were a little less precise in the exact shade, but high profile engines and carriages were presented and maintained to a very high standard prior to the Great War.

Brian.

Craigentinny Depot wheel lathe is a good example to model, it’s located well away from the main depot and has quite a wide variety of different users, not just their own TOCs rolling stock but other TOCs and FOCs use it and very occasionally the SRPS have used it. Surprisingly though ScotRail very rarely use it, preferring to use their own lathes at Shields Road and Inverness.

https://www.cairncross.uk.com/projects/craigentinny-underfloor-wheel-lathe-installation/

4 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Nice one . I think the Caley 812s in Blue were also used on some of the fast Clyde Coast Boat Trains . I believe that was bogie stock , but not 6 wheelers . Seems there is nothing to run behind them , other than trains of PO wagons . 

The fast Clyde Coast Boat Trains did use ‘Grampian’ 12 wheelers but the non-corridor version. The usual formation was BT F BT BT On Saturdays, these were strengthened with the behemoth D105 68’ 11 compartment third, the biggest coach ever built by the Caledonian Railway. To make they require either a lot of cutting and shutting of the Triang compartment sides or the Caley Coaches kit.

Brian.

6 hours ago, Invicta said:

 

IIRC they were approximately based on early 1900's CR 'Grampian' express stock, but made to fit Triang's BR Mk 1 chassis and ends- I don't know a lot about Caledonian coaches, but if memory serves, one of the most obvious discrepancies is that the actual 'Grampian' coaches had 6-wheel bogies

The only part of the Triang Caledonian Coach that is in any way Caledonian are the sides, the rest of the coach is BR Mk1 from half a century later. I rebuilt one at the start of the first lockdown using a Dapol 12 wheel LMS restaurant car for the roof, ends and bogies.

What we really need to go with the ‘as built’ Class 812 are steel bodied 30t mineral/goods bogie wagons.

If you save £20 a month until it’s released you should have most of the balance saved up for at least a two car and depending on how delayed it ends up a three car. If you want one enough that is what you’ll do, if £20 a month is too much for you, then buying brand new model railway trains won’t be part of your hobby. 
I plan to get one 3 car set, I never seen a 6 car 104 in Scotland in the 80s. I may never run all three vehicles together, but all three vehicles will be run at the same time!

Brian.

It was the loading screens ability to handle the canopied MGR wagons wa the deciding factor. It depends on if your reimagined Longannet trains are coming from an actually existed loading screen or an imagined. If to you it looks right, then it is right and rule 1 of course.

Brian.

The LNWR had a distinct and individual styling to their rolling stock, which is one of the reasons there has been so few rtr models. Even though the LNWR was the largest pre-grouping railway company and its rolling stock being long lived and far travelled, kits and scratchbuild are the only way of achieving what you ‘crave’. 
 

Brian.

I have 4 ScotRail Mk3a, no problems with any of them, maybe I got lucky, maybe it’s just the unfortunates with faulty ones come on here. I swapped the tension locks for Roco close couplers, they run fine pushed or pulled. Colour wise, I prefer the Oxford ScotRail wee bit too light colour that can be toned down with weathering than the Bachmann ScotRail far too dark that requires a repaint.

For their price, Oxford Mk3a are good value, the only alternative are the ancient Jouef (good in there day, but that was a different century).

Brian.