Headstock

Good evening Tony, why not just produce a ballast train to go with your ballast brake? The 1960 and 1950 dates are a bit random. A couple of things to consider, you really need the figures for the individual year that is being modeled. In the case of LB that should be 1957 I think. Railway modelers have a terrible tendency to extract information from one time period of railway history and transpose it onto another. As for the 'replacement' off big four stock after Nationalization, it is often forgotten that the newly created British railways continued to build pre Nationalised wagons for some time. many of them, such as the LNER high steel goods for example, became a BR standard types. On percentages, specialist wagons dominate on model railways, in reality and excluding mineral wagons, three quarters of the wagons produced by the big four were General merchandise opens. One of the biggest problems with model railway freight stock is the over emphasis on specialist vehicles and on pre WW2 layouts, fitted stock. Invariably the specialist stock is dominated by GWR types on the majority of model railways, as if the big builders of the LMS and LNER never built a bogie bolster or well wagon of their own, rather they unauthentically relied on the moderately produced products of the GWR. LB is rather guilty of this one.

Half of the first ten vans are ex LMS.

Good evening Tony, of more relevance are the nine ex LMS vans in the photo, conveniently ignored by modelers and manufactures but easily outnumbering the SR types, except in model railway land were the reverse is the case.

I quite agree, you might say that a model of Godzilla could look very realistic but it's pure fantasy. I'm not fooled by the goods trains on LB, I would consider them to be the weakest part of the layout, though they are technically well modeled. The railway infrastructure is probably the strongest element in my opinion. LB is however, not a Godzilla layout.

Good evening Graeme, I asked my Father at the time what colour he remembered. He didn't specify a particular colour, he thought that some didn't look that radically different from any other LNER wagon, though he did say that some other wagons and 'carriages' were very striking, being so bleached by the sun that they looked like they were made of bone! He was obviously aware that there was a livery that was susceptible to weathering and colour fading but he was not aware how strong and distinctive the official colour scheme was. When he found out that colour was Oxford blue, he didn't doubt it, he was surprised but didn't find it unlikely. When a friend and I were researching stores vans many many years ago, I was told that the Oxford blue was notoriously unstable. As one of the Woodford wags put it, the colour'' turned grey faster than a white coach roof''. They remembered the stores vans as being a light grey with a blue tinge, that would be consistent with what they were saying. They also said that there was quite an influx of revenue vehicles into departmental service during and after the war, these were not usually repainted from teak or brown, just rebranded. From what they were saying, I think it would be possible that patch painting of existing liveries would also take place in LNER days. The main thing I took away from all this, was that a train of Oxford blue wagons or other vehicles would be impossibly rare. There are some photographs around that seem to confirm this, including some colour photographs from LNER days. I recently came across a photo of an ex GNR six-wheel passenger brake van taken in the late 40s. It literally looks like it is painted white, with darker patches painted on to illuminate the departmental branding! Your 1950s example is not at all surprising, many of the pictures of stores vans that I have collected over the years, have retained their earlier liveries well into the fifties.

Stop playing with those toy trains and make some tea.

I quite agree, the LNER colour schemes were wonderfully organic and naturalistic, even all the fog grey wagons, or should that be mist grey? GWR, the colour of a box of After eight mints.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, my Father recalled seeing loads of departmental stock in the sidings at Neville hill in the late 30s. The first time he saw anything painted Oxford blue, was on a model railway, it was quite a surprise.

Good evening Tony, as has been highlighted by my engineers' train, its make-up is probably completely wrong a slight dumbing down of the message there. What was suggested was that on the iteration of the train in one photograph, there were so many gadgets on the metaphorical swiss army knife, it was impossible to ascertain the job of work the train was supposed to be doing. I will always call you out on the likes of the GWR bogie brake because 1. you are a professional modeler and 2. You are a mega influencer. I don't think I'm being unfair, all in all my criticisms of LB wouldn't fill the fingers of one hand.

Good afternoon Northmoor, Thanks for your more sketched out examples, I would agree that they certainly don't sound very good. Are these the products of the detail obsessed failures, that you describe in you original post? I come back to this point, as even as though you say you admire them, you keep referring to people who aim to get things' right, as obsessives or with an obsession. This kind of negative language has become so endemic in model railways, that people don't even realize there doing it. The really good modelers that I know are pretty normal individuals, they don't have a personality disorder as a special modeling power. I think we should try to avoid the group think negativity that seeks to belittle those who, wish to do things a bit better, work a bit harder, or who are simply more talented than ourselves. I don't believe the above is you for a moment but it seems easy to be infected by this attitude, I have many a typical story I could tell. A few years ago, a young lad came up to me at an exhibition, full of enthusiasm. He wanted to know about a six wheel van that I had built. I explained its history, the train it ran in and the job it was doing. He was chuffed to bits with this and then said, ''I wish my group were like that, if you try to do anything a bit more realistic, they just put you down and make you feel like an idiot''. I was gobsmacked!

Good afternoon Northmoor, based on this, you can only be describing a layout of a real location. I'm confused how that can fit with this. I can't embarrass anybody's layout myself, as I can't think of a single example of layout that conforms to your criteria. I could consider it possible, that ''nowhere on Planet Earth'', could be applied to layouts that are the exact opposite of what you describe. Forgive me but what your saying has a touch of reverse snobbery, where by someone is put down for trying really hard, while don't care, nobody will notice, is celebrated as being part of the gang.

Mine is probably wrong too. Good morning Tony, not the case at all. it's obvious what your train is. It's very similar, even down to the ex GNR brake, to a photo of a ballast train that I posted up for you on this thread some years ago.

Exactly, its a potpourri train. Tony could actually produce two different departmental trains that alternated in the sequence.

Good morning Northmoor, could you provide an example of the type of layout you describe?

Good evening Tony, thank you very much for the comprehensive reply and photographs. That's the difference between myself and many a modeler. I wouldn't ignore anything, every train has a story to tell, at least those built rather than bought, I want to know the stories behind everything. The engineers train looks better without the GWR bogie van, I still think there's a lot of space given over to tools though. That's a joke, before the anointed White Knights descend on their virtual chargers.

I'm sure your right about Mr Jackson but I was never afraid of him or worshiped his opinion. So what is so eastern about a GWR bogie brake, GWR bogie bolster and a modern LMS van that would be still in revenue traffic at the time?

Good afternoon Chamby, there were a couple of incidents that demanded the attendance of the Colwick and Woodford break down Crain's in the late 40s, just to the south of LCS. One involved an O4 that went down the embankment just to the south Braunston gate bridge. The breakdown trains were quite well documented as a result. Bad joke? A bit of an over reaction Tony, I'm trying to understand what it is I'm looking at and how you think about what your modeling. Genuine question, why use multiple photographs of an engineers trains? Why not pick just one train and copy it? Is there a danger that multiple trains used as prototype inspiration, could produce a Frankenstein's monster, a 'Flying Talisabethan', for example? The rather anachronistic ex GWR bogie full brake, dose jar with what you have said that you won't tolerate in model railways in the past. I appreciate it is your model to do with what you like but I don't understand why you would consider throwing it away either?

Good morning Phil, I have photographs and even moving images of a couple of the breakdown trains operating in your area. No they didn't use ex GWR clerestory carriages, two wheelers, GWR Crocodiles or the Bachmann breakdown Crain. The above is understandable, given the limitations that you have to work under with RTR. The major improvement that I would suggest, would be the repainting of the anachronistic livery for your chosen time period of 1949.

Good afternoon Tony, Perhaps their just more polite than I, or just haven't got a clue. As flag waver for the unpopular opinion, i.e. copy the real thing. Your 'Departmental' train has never made much sense to me, it comes across as a rather interesting if random collection of vehicles. What is it, whats it doing, whats its job? Is it a break down train, a ballast train, or an odd mix of the two? It has a bit of sand, a bit of ballast and a couple of made up vehicles, a mix of revenue and departmental stock and lots of space for tools. I cant say the new ex GWR full brake adds anything, except more confusion. I'm not sure if the livery is supposed to be the late departmental red, or BR crimson lake? Wouldn't the former be anachronistic for your time period? The latter would explain the ''return empty to the western region'' legend. Presumably it is a unbranded stores van, delivering more tools from Swindon works to a random departmental train on the East coast mainline?

Good morning Richard, apologies for the late reply. I agree, accuracy is important, get that right and build everything square, then some sort of magic should occur. It would seem that the new RTR V2 is a rather flat in the magic department, there are some accuracy issues there. Beyond personal satisfaction, a bit of building will remain the best way of getting a good V2 for the foreseeable future. Well done.

Agreed, at least in photos. The Bachmann rendition is a rather inelegant looking thing.

Good morning Richard, despite the horror stories you here about the Proscale V2, that looks really good. The essence of V2 is well captured.

Good evening Jesse, RTR manufactures have a pretty poor record when it comes to wagons, even new ones can be totally fictitious. Two thirds of those on sale in the current big manufactures catalogues are grade one turkeys. A dubious compliment I suppose.

Pure evil! You can't edit my postscript, it is already edited for charm, focus and intent. Change one aspect and it becomes perverted and corrupt. Get your own postscript lazy bones!

Good afternoon Sandra, not such a strange fact, the dia. 100a boiler was the standard for all class O4's from the 1940s onwards. No new boilers were constructed for earlier iterations of the class. It was the LNERs practice that when new boilers were required, an individual loco would be rebuilt as O4/8. If the cylinders were also worn out, a full rebuild to class O1 would be carried out. The LNER converted 51 locomotives prior to nationalisation and a further 7 were dealt with before BR canceled any further rebuilds to O1 in 1949. The reboilering of O4 to class O4/8, continued for as long as the locomotives were needed. Eventually 99 locomotives were so treated, becoming the most common type in service.. The O4 was an old design, though not necessarily old in material. For the majority of there lifetime, heavy freight locomotives had advanced little. More importantly, freight workings had advanced even less! Due to the slow evolution of freight workings in this country, the O4s were quite capable of handling the vast majority of workings up until the end of steam.