Nearholmer

Excellent stuff! There is a serious danger that I will get tempted out of the fun, clatter and approximation of coarse-scale, and back into the stern discipline of fine scale by this sort of thing. Kevin

Having a quick look at this thread, because with the local heroes letting us down 0-2 on Saturday, followed by two days of pretty much uninterrupted rain, I needed a reminder of why emigrating might not be the first option. Reassured. Thank you, Chaps. Kevin

Just stumbled upon this - marvellous piece of work! Most realistic horrible weather that I've seen on a layout, and it's clearly set in "the good old days", before central heating, double glazing, and decent insulation. I remember ice on the inside of the windows, and swapping from pyjamas to school uniform (shorts, naturally!) under the blankets on mornings like this. Kevin

Looking good; it shouts South Eastern. I agree that the SR "light stone" is a difficult colour to get right, but I also wonder if we get misled by BR(S) having adopted a slightly lighter shade. Anyway, the opposing forces of dirt, making it darker, and the sun, bleaching it lighter, probably give plenty of latitude! Kevin

Dear Eminences Gris I seek your guidance in the matter of FPLs and locking bars. In some places, a locking bar actuated by the train wheels to operate FPL. in some places an FPL operated by a lever at the 'box or GF. MoT Regs & Recommendations 1950 addition has a section entitled FPLs, which then seems to talk only about locking bars, not about FPLs operated by a lever (I admit that I may have misunderstood what it is trying to say!). Why the differences in practice? And, was there a change in thinking or legislation away from locking bars at some date, and if so, why? This is not an IRSE exam practice question, I'm just more curious about the topic than is really healthy for a grown man. Kevin

Thanks, Overner. Yes, could be. And, if you look in the background behind the loco, I think there is a pile of concrete troughing lids, which would be just the sort of thing kicking-around during electrification works, which were just coming to a conclusion in 1937. K And, thanks Fay, too. That seals it. The loco would have puffed past by Grandparents' home as it left Hayling, wherein was probably my Grandmother, who was imminently expecting the arrival of my mother in summer 1937. Photo credit to Sidney Perrier, August 1937. I just found a load more of his work on Flickr - remarkable!

Thanks, Overner. Yes, could be. And, if you look in the background behind the loco, I think there is a pile of concrete troughing lids, which would be just the sort of thing kicking-around during electrification works. K

Overner Fascinating picture of 2644; can I ask where it was taken? If you want to see the sort of Terrier us coarse-scalers are running, have a look at my thread as linked below. BTW, Dapol have got the brake blocks right on the Stroudley livery ones. I think that only the last few had iron brake-blocks from new, "Crowborough" for instance, and the rest were converted as time went by, so dating ones layout to match "Waddon" as supplied by Dapol might be an important question. Coarse-scale Terriers don't have brake-blocks, so layout-dating us less of a challenge. Kevin

Crikey, is that a photo of Glyn Ceiriog, Georgia? More to the point, I like making things, and operating the layout ("playing trains") including shunting, and my dissertation on the the names of LBSCR shunting horses in 1900 is well underway (I really never could see the interest in GER shunting horses, but, hey-ho, the hobby is a broad church, and it takes all sorts, etc, etc....). It is possible to enjoy all this stuff, given time, of which there is never enough. But, to enjoy shunting, Grasshopper, you must think like a shunter, and see the world through the eyes of a shunter. You must wear the battered cap, and carry the stick with the curly hook at the end. You must become at one with the shunting! You must be able to hear the sound of one buffer clanking! In short, you need to use your imagination, a lot. You have to play trains. Otherwise, the wagons are just little plastic/wood/tin/brass cuboids on wheels (just like they are when you are making them ). Kevin

Having looked at the pictures of the acorn from which your layout is set to grow, I was mightily impressed, and will follow what comes next closely. I will promise to keep quiet on the signalling front, having already given my threepen'orth. If you do decide to expand this into a multi-location empire, can I put in an early vote for something inspired by the Rye Harbour branch? One of the most fascinating bits of shingle in Britain, the Rye Harbour area, and you'll be relieved to learn that it didn't have any signalling at all. Kevin

Pete I understand all of that - what is good for the real railway isn't always the most entertaining to create or operate in model form. If you want to go to the other extreme, a station that was, before the SR got at it, madly over-signalled was Heathfield, in Sussex. It had miniature semaphores to control every conceivable, and many inconceivable, moves, and I always think that Messrs Saxby and Farmer must have laughed all the way to the bank when the cheque to pay for it all arrived from their former employer, the LBSCR. Kevin

Fascinating concept, and great locale in which to set it. I'm no signalling engineer, and my rule book grasp us a bit flaky, but my reaction on looking at your plans was that I felt a desperate need to economise, in true SR fashion. This is the middle of nowhere, and it is bristling with expensive signalling ........ Do you really need 5 and 10? Could you get away with 11 points being in "terra incognito", so simply spring/hand worked,maybe with a sprung trap (hand closed) to protect the platform road from a runaway entering controlled territory? Why control 6 points from the box? You mention an advance starter - why do you need one? "The Board also request that you submit, to its next meeting, an evaluation of the cost savings, andv operational implications, of working this final section of the line under OES arrangements, and demoting the signal cabin to a GF, released by a key carried by the Guard. Every penny counts!" :-) My thinking is that, with judicious shunting, you might be able ensure that all departures are controlled by 8, and that, if you want to have two trains at the location simultaneously, there might be provisions in the the SR rule book! or precedent in a Sectional Appendix, to permit a goods train in possession of the staff/token to enter section from a siding under flag control by the signalman, rather than the control of a fixed signal, I'm not sure. Beluncle Halt, and the runaround points at Hayling Island might be worth a look. The answers might depend on whether you want it to look "SECR, before SR economy drive", or "post economy drive". Meant both constructively and humorously. Kevin PS: just remembered Leysdown, signalled by a bean-counter after my own heart,mand very similar to your track layout http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/sre/R1852.htm

Is this 4mm scale?! It is quite incredibly finely detailed - "museum quality" doesn't do it justice. I could smell the creosote, brake dust and oil. One thought, going right back to the first picture, is that side-ramps for "running on" were avoided, if possible, because they tended to get out of alignment and knock shoes off. I recall them being permitted for low speed areas, but not at all encouraged. So, are they really necessary in this location? An alternative might be a gap and ramp-end. Incidentally, the way that CR layout designs were tested for "gapping"" in reality was to run little cardboard trains, with shoes positions marked accurately on them, all over the place, on 40ft/inch layout drawings. Anyway, brilliant work, and that from a dedicated coarse-scaler! Kevin

Martin It is a truly wonderful book. I have been dimly aware of it for decades, but only got the chance to read the whole thing, and look at the photos, quite recently. What really cheered me up was how many times I found myself "reading my own thoughts", if you understand what I mean. I long ago worked out that the ideal "one person" (with visiting friends) layout would have two termini branching from a continuous run circuit, ideally at an interesting junction station, and, blow me ....... My own layout tries to follow this principle, but because of space, time and money constraints (redundant billiard rooms are pretty rare around my house!) the continuous run is single-track, and the trains are short; it is designed around a tank engine or 4-4-0 hauling three coaches plus a four wheeled van, although it can accommodate a pacific with five on the continuous part). Last week I actually demoted the smaller terminus to become a fiddle-yard, and it is now very similar to a CJF plan called "Zeals". If you put "Birlstone" into the search thingy on the forum, you will see how (not very) far it has progressed since I started it in October 2013. Kevin

Bluebottle An astonishing find; I envy you immensely that you managed to acquire that. Without having read it it, I would be prepared to wager money that it has something in the "readers' letters" page arguing about the respective merits of setting the the distance over tram-plate-flanges to 16.5mm, 18.2mm or18.83mm, despite the fact that millimetres probably weren't invented yet. Kevin PS: would the author be the current AD's great-great-great (etc) grandfather, or is it simply that the gentleman in question wears his years exceptionally well?

Stationmaster, Sir. How can one distinguish between letter mail bags, and parcel mail bags? Is it size? The way they are secured? Or what? It's probably a distinction too far for me, but fine-scalers will surely want to know. Kevin

Fascinating thread. As a side question: was Sept 1970 the high point of RM circulation? I think my first " bought new" copy was then too! I personally find two sorts of layouts inspiring: those that have a very believable "backstory", so that they seem to serve real communities; and, those that can be, and are, operated like a real railway, with at least a bit of complexity to the traffic pattern. The seriously brilliant ones fit both descriptions, The Buckingham Branches, The Madder Valley etc. The Buckingham Branches is so good a concept that I'm forever looking out for remains of the routes when I drive across the area ....... Leighton Buzzard (Linslade) seems more real than certain real stations! Lately, I've got into "prehistoric" model railways, working my way through model railway magazines and books from 1909-1911, 1925, and 1938 as sample years. There is a lot to learn from our ancestors, especially when it comes to designing for operation, rather than appearance, so I've found even the most ancient things quite inspirational. It's quite interesting to read things that were written when "modern image" meant the LNWR's latest express engine, so I will add the leading name from that era: Henry Greenly. He and WJB-L effectively invented our hobby! Kevin

Ah, it begins to become clearer! I found a brilliant Getty image of Christmas Mail being unloaded at kings cross station, from ordinary fitted goods vans, and it includes vast numbers of parcels of all sizes, plus bagged (letter?) Mail, which has been placed in distinct piles. Also, an image showing GWR staff unloading parcels vans, probably just pre or post First World War (moustache an uniform dating!) and there is a batch of churns among all the parcels. Finally, this image http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls891.htm . The tank wagon apparently ran Dorrington, Shrewsbury, Banbury, Woodford, Marylebone, and return. Has anyone written pre-WW2 "parcels" up for Backtrack? If not, it would make a really helpful and interesting article. Kevin

Chaps This is getting interesting; thank you. The van to Calne, BTW, was almost certainly for sausages. The few pre-nationalisation pictures that I have found of complete parcels trains are two different ones of a Paddington- Shrewsbury working, which seems to contain a hotch-potch of things, including a six wheeled milk tank, but all GWR vehicles, and an LMS one! which looks to be all LMS vehicles. One thing I would debate is the contention that all post office parcels would have travelled in "Royal Mail" vehicles. Bagged mail was conveyed in all sorts of vehicles, in what we know as "parcels trains", and in ordinary passenger trains, either in attached vans, in the brake van, or in locked passenger compartments (the seat cushions were supposed to be turned over to stop them getting too grubby). I strongly suspect that the same applied to post office parcels that were too big to fit in a mail bag. I have watched post office traffic being loaded and unloaded many, many times, so this is eye witness testimony, if you will. Kevin

Thanks chaps. I'd still like to see photos of parcels vans "off company" before 1948 to totally convince me. This is partly because I have a feeling that the railways own parcel services were in competition with one another between major towns. And, partly because the post office operates on a "hub and spoke" basis, which does involve unloading and re-sorting at the hubs, so that if each spoke was contracted to one railway company, no need for inter-running of vans. The exceptions like the tobacco (wasn't there a dock at/near Neyland, implying export to Eire or the US?) and Palethorpe's sausages I do understand. Kevin

Fascinating thread, great photos, many memories jogged! One thought; one question. Surprised that the SR EMUs don't seem to get a nod: MLVs were used on their own, and with trailing vehicles, and there were various PAN (= parcels and newspapers) units at different times. My question is very similar to Rovex's in Post 415: it seems quite a challenge to find pre-BR photos of parcels trains (WarwickshireRailways.com is the only source that I've stumbled upon), and I'm left mystified as to whether there was as much inter-company operation of vans pre-war, as there was inter-regional operation under BR. Does anyone know? I run coarse scale 0 gauge, so am no rivet-counter, but I do like to run formations that look semi-plausible. So, is it OK to have GWR, LMS or LNER vans in my SR parcels and newspaper train? Guidance gratefully received, Kevin

Crikey, didn't even know there was a show on, and even nearer to home that the previous one! Unlikely that I will get time to attend, but if I do, I shall try to come and say hello. My, very different from your, efforts are now the subject of a thread in the Southern Railway part of this forum, under the title "A visit to Birlstone". Determinedly coarse-scale, but you might find it interesting. Kevin

I've posted a bit more about my vintage-style layout-under-construction under the heading "A visit to Birlstone" in the Southern Railway zone - it is meant to be a Southern layout (Ok, I know the BL 0-6-0 is in LNER livery!), and I thought it might interest/educate/annoy the fine-scalers who inhabit that part of the forum. Have a look, if you are interested. Kevin

Another Watford maker who advertised in MR&L c1914 was Ball, I think. Butcher also originated the line of fine-scale LNWR signals in 0 scale, which became much better known under the Bassett-Lowke label, and they certainly produced locos with the "boiler motor", as illustrated by Greenly in his book on model electric railways, c1911. K

Thanks, Peter. Having looked at your site, I realise that I (briefly) saw Felsen at MK in February. I live very near the venue, and made a half day visit to the exhibition, fully intending to study everything in detail, but ended up spending most of the time operating a friend's 009 layout and/or chatting to the guys running the "tinplate" layout! I've also seen, and greatly admired, your French metre gauge layout - very smart modelling, and very smart choice of scale/gauge combination. I'm a fan of French n.g. too - last week I diverted a family walk during our holiday to investigate interesting metre gauge archaeology on the former CFD Aisne. Kevin