Nearholmer

Thanks Gents. All is now a great dealer clearer. The reference to a GNR coal depot at Hither Green dates to the period immediately after opening of the Snow Hill route, so my assumption is that it was only a relatively short-lived arrangement, perhaps until Brockley Lane and Elephant & Castle were opened, or something that got transferred to SECR ownership, so ceased to be "foreign", quite early on. In case anyone else is into all this, here is the link to the vital article by Edwin Course http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/ForeignDepotsofSthLondon.pdf Next step is to attempt to understand what motive power was used. Things are quite well recorded and photographed for the late-Grouping and BR periods, but, so far I haven't discovered a great deal about the situation pre-1930, and these services had been running for sixty years by then! I will continue to delve. Kevin

This topic of track cleaning in 0 scale has been "done to death" on the coarse-scale forum that I belong to too, and ATF get discussed there; apparently it's secret ingredient is some form of detergent, which is what stops dirt sticking to things that it has been applied to. I had no idea that ATF and Wahl oil were related - a bit like BGJ, I've only ever seen it at the barber's. It's part of the firmly-established ritual that attends "clippers all over; number four", along with "Tapered or square at the back?" and "Anything on it, sir?". "Something for the weekend?" seems to have died-out about twenty years ago, but that might simply be the barber forming a judgement based on my advancing years. It disappeared around the same time that "There's many a young bloke would love a head of hair like yours." entered the ritual. Anyway, enough of this chatter ...... Dock Green is a splendid layout! Kevin

Excellent thread about some of "Ruth's" German cousins here, with lots of drawings and photos. http://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?17,6335539 The general form of steeple-cab four-wheeled electric loco goes back nearly to the beginning of dynamo-electric railways, and they have been built all over the world, to suit all sorts of different power supply configurations. I have to confess that despite a pretty thorough search, I'm not totally sure which company built the first in this format, but I strongly suspect that it was Siemens and Halske in the mid 1880s. The bogie version of the same thing was, I think, an American idea from roughly the same date. Electrically, the d.c. ones are pretty much exactly like a toy/model train, and there were toys/models of them on the market from c1900. Kevin

Peter I love your "no nonsense" approach - I have a bad tendency to agonise over the finer points of everything, so barely get anything done! (And, my nearest and dearest just pointed out that applies to minor DIY jobs even more than model-railway building) Kevin PS: Look Guys, I did fix the kitchen door knob this evening, and I will sort out the problem with the bath plug on Saturday ...... Honest! So, please, no more "agree" with my nearest and dearest's complaints about neglect of DIY; OK?

Folks I'm attempting to get clear in my head a picture of the big "foreign" coal depots in South London, and the train services to them, ideally pre-grouping and SR period,rather than BR period. So far I have: Walworth Road - Midland Brockley Lane - GNR Peckham Rye - ???? Hither Green - GNR Brixton(?) - LNWR(?) Elephant & Castle - GNR(?) Some of these were "flat" yards, but Walworth Road was a huge elevated thing with "shoots", and E&C I think a smaller elevated one with "shoots". I am fairly sure that Hither Green was served by GNR trains from Ferme Park via Snow Hill (didn't the GNR have 0-8-2T for this?). Brockley Lane ditto, I think. Also, I'm fairly sure that Midland trains ran direct from Brent to Walworth Road. But, you can see that I still have a lot of question marks, and there would be even more if I added in questions about motive power. This little lot could make a lot of excuses for very interesting trains on model railways, and I've never seen them discussed in that context before. Can anyone offer knowledge? There was also a Midland Railway coal depot at Maidstone, but surely Midland locos didn't schlepp all the way down there!? EDIT: panic over chaps, I found the other thread about this topic, and Edwin Course's brilliant article. I will attempt to tabulate/summarise at some point. A very interesting topic!

Two thoughts: Weathering - there is also evidence that the paint suffered with high heat. Look around some of the clack valves in the (Bennett collection?) pictures above, and on other views showing the cab front above the firebox. Probably all those natural oils being driven out by heat, leaving just dry pigment. Coupling-rod joints - might the rods have been deliberately swapped about, to even out wear in the crank-pin and joint bearings? I have in mind that, even on a tank engine, which might go as far forwards as backwards, the forces in one direction might be subtly different from those in the other, causing differential wear. Kevin

Phil I think that what you are looking at are the magnetic track brakes. As a side point, the US Patton motor cars were produced in a multi-power format, that could run by petrol engine, battery, and third-rail, for use as "engineering train locomotives" - all that in the 1890s. Which doesn't stop modern multi-power loco manufacturers implying that it is all a new idea! Kevin

BG John Yes, the GER also used deep ultramarine blue. (You'll notice I'm dodging the possibility that the KESR copied the GER. Partly because I can't be sure, and partly because my loyalty to the KESR dies hard) Kevin

TWR Absolutely excellent - just my kind of stuff, and answers the question in detail. The really interesting thing that this highlights is that the Autocar was, very largely "electrically" controlled, with the engine governed to a fixed speed (with a very few extra revs available for a quick start). This, in turn, indicates two things: 1) that the batteries probably came into play to provide a boost when/if the car was faced with a gradient, and probably "soaked up" some of the kinetic energy when braking, especially on a down gradient; (edit: actually, on re-read, I'm less sure about this, because the battery was charged from the exciter generator; what we really need is the circuit diagram!) 2) that overall, the control scheme was very similar to, if not identical with, that of the earlier Patton motor car. (Edit :Possibly not, if the battery didn't contribute to traction - I'm beginning to think that maybe the Autocar might have been a poor "hill climber") I don't differ from Mr Henessey's conclusion that the Autocar was influential in the US, because I've read the contemporary US reports which attest to that fact, but it is very interesting/remarkable that that was the case, when there was already a "home grown" US product that was doing very nearly the same thing, and had been doing it for nearly 15 years. Some of Patton's patents, describing the concept date back to 1887, and he really does deserve credit as the inventor of the "hybrid". Another, more famous, hybrid fan was Ferdinand Porsche, BTW, who devised a road car called the "Mixte" in the 1890s. Anyway, very good stuff indeed! Kevin

Wasn't KESR livery deep ultramarine blue, lined red? Anyway ......... 30+ years ago, when researching the history of obscure narrow gauge railways in East Sussex, I was directed to a very old lady who lived in a cottage in the middle of nowhere, about five miles from Crowhurst. She told me all about a little railway at a pumping station, which was what I was interested in, but then produced a half-crown from a drawer in a sideboard. Said half-crown had been given to her father as a tip,when he delivered No.3 Bodiam, on the last leg of its trip from Brighton to Robertsbridge, for handover to the KESR, the gentleman in question having been a driver at st Leonard's shed. It must have been a mighty sum of money, but he'd been so proud of it, that he'd passed it on, rather than spent it. My surmise is that the old lady has passed on by now - let's hope that the half-crown and the story have been handed down to her descendants. Kevin

Gents This topic has been causing debate for many, many years, perhaps since the last Stroudley-liveried loco was repainted. "Como", and two contemporary models that are in the museum at Sheffield Park, and are said to have been painted with genuine LBSCR paint, are often cited as the key references. Not sure if it has come up yet, but whether they should be called "Terriers" or "Rooters" usually comes up too. The term "Terrier" was certainly in common use, and was used in the engineering press, while the locos were still being built, but I'd be interested to know what the date/source for "Rooter" is. Kevin

Many thanks Gentlemen. Somehow, I overlooked these very useful replies, and pestered StationMaster into a long explanation on another thread. I now feel able to talk about this topic without confusing myself and others in the process! Kevin

John No worries - and it looks as if my suspicion that we agreed was well-founded. I really do think that the art is neglected, and perhaps partly forgotten, though, a theory which can be tested by looking at the balance of content magazines, and even on this forum. Here, for instance, I notice that a thread about "realism" is really about that facet of realism perceptible in photos. I think that there is a strong possibility that a newcomer could get the impression that this hobby is solely about photo/dimensional accuracy, which, of course, it really isn't. Kevin

JohnArcher "The trouble" I was referring to is that designing for operation, within realistic space constraints, seems to be a neglected, if not forgotten, art. And, I think that part of the reason it has become neglected, is that photo/dimensional accuracy is frequently emphasised above all else. Which is not at all the same as saying that "operation is more important than appearance" or that people should be forced to pursue their hobby in a way that they don't prefer - both of which you appear to accuse me of saying, when I don't. I'm more than happy to exchange perspectives, and I have a suspicion that we may actually agree with one another on a lot of this, but please don't ascribe to me views that I haven't expounded, and, as it happens, don't hold. Kevin

Fascinating stuff, which I've been following from afar for a good while. Techie question: Is much known about the original control arrangements? I'd really love to understand how the engine-generator-motor combination was operated, was their field control on the generator, for instance? Superb project! Kevin

Gents Strangely, I think the trouble really set in when people got more hooked on attempts to build scale (even compressed/selective) models of real stations, rather than design their own, in a railway-like fashion, to suit the needs and constraints of railway modelling. Buckingham, Borchester, Paddington-Seagood, and good few others, including plenty of CJF designs, are very much freelance in many senses, but can be operated like a significant section of a real railway. The key paragraph in Paddington-Seagood talks about a "representative selection of operations" and the author talks being happier to run short trains operated properly, rather than longer trains not, if faced with tighter space constraints than he was faced with (not that a billiard-room really counts as a space constraint!). Rediscovering the "three coaches, headed by a 4-4-0" formula has certainly cheered-up my train-playing, and I think it could cheer up a lot of other people's. Kevin

Mike Perfect! That seaside outing picture is exactly the sort of thing that I want to reproduce; I have a picture taken in Summer 1939, showing some dim and distant great-uncles, on an "pub outing", everyone standing on the shingle in front of the 'bus. The trip must have been a long one, with many refreshment stops, because they went from near Tunbridge Wells, to Southsea! Many thanks again, Kevin

That Gaz truck looks mighty useful, thank you. Just to reassure me: the AA was produced in the UK, not just US and Russia? Kevin

Good pointers, Mike, thank you. I'm a bit of a duffer when it comes to road vehicles, don't know makes/models, so I will need to swot-up on what the most common "light truck " chassis was. Horses and carts? I barely know one end from the other! Volumes? How many members of the GOG are there? I reckon you could sell one to each. Then diecast collectors. Kevin

Is that a "gloating" emoticon? ;-)

This is nothing other than a cheeky attempt to get special pleading in front of Messrs Oxford Diecast, on the assumption that they might read this thread ........ Pre-WW2 commercials in 7mm scale. The Austin 7 van is superb, and it would be great to have some slightly bigger vans, open trucks and lorries. I'm not sure what the equivalent of a Ford Transit chassis was in 1932, but that is the sort of thing that I have in mind, and a lot of other 0 gaugers would welcome too. One chassis/cab, but with several options on the back. And, a more radical thought: coal merchants are a feature of zillions of railway goods yards, and they used horse-drawn lorries (technical term might be drays) until c1960 in many places. Could Oxford run to a 7mm scale horse and coal lorry? Anyway, thanks in advance for thinking about these ideas, Kevin

Excellent stuff! There is a serious danger that I will get tempted out of the fun, clatter and approximation of coarse-scale, and back into the stern discipline of fine scale by this sort of thing. Kevin

Having a quick look at this thread, because with the local heroes letting us down 0-2 on Saturday, followed by two days of pretty much uninterrupted rain, I needed a reminder of why emigrating might not be the first option. Reassured. Thank you, Chaps. Kevin

Just stumbled upon this - marvellous piece of work! Most realistic horrible weather that I've seen on a layout, and it's clearly set in "the good old days", before central heating, double glazing, and decent insulation. I remember ice on the inside of the windows, and swapping from pyjamas to school uniform (shorts, naturally!) under the blankets on mornings like this. Kevin

Looking good; it shouts South Eastern. I agree that the SR "light stone" is a difficult colour to get right, but I also wonder if we get misled by BR(S) having adopted a slightly lighter shade. Anyway, the opposing forces of dirt, making it darker, and the sun, bleaching it lighter, probably give plenty of latitude! Kevin