chris45lsw

As discussed there were four boilers available for the three locos - 2 x Drummond, boiler Nos. 916 & 921 (D916 & D921) , 1 x Adams with short dome (AS) & 1 x Adams with tall dome (AT).  AT was on EKR No. 5 / 3488 (30583) when acquired by the SR though it went into initial SR service carrying D916.  So it got back the boiler it had when sold out of service in 1917 for its last couple of years on BR &, of course, still has it today.  The boiler history post War is:-

3125/30582: AS Dec 45 - Apr 54 / D921 May 54 - June 60 / D916 July 60- July 61 (withdrawal)

3488/30583: D916 Dec 46 - Sep 49 / D921 Oct 49 - Jan 53 / D916 Feb 53 - Mar 59 / AT Apr 59 - July 61 (withdrawal) & into preservation.

3520/30584:

Had a look at the 3 samples they had one tooling sample, one 488 and a BR version, they looked quite good, the hand rails need some work as they were not in alignment and were a bit wonky... The model in general looks very fine, and vey nice, livery on the 488 model looked very good..

I Feel slightly disappointed no photos were allowed to be taken, plus it's free advertising for them...

Bluebell did share an image of the tooling on their FB page.

Which didn't have a no photo sign...

 

Regarding the note with the prototype, the combination shown definitely does not represent a specific member of the class! But that will undoubtedly change!

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

Not seen this before - 30584 with number on both smokebox and buffer beam https://www.flickr.com/photos/landrovermike/8381752358/in/photolist-dLEEXG-dLzacB-59zbwB-59zbMe-59DpVj-5JMFrR-cUdJPm-7z2Hx4-59BNVF-6hg2VL-59DSDA-59DpxY-59zbqa-56tJMw-7v2Z1k-59zbPV-59Dq6f-59zbE8-7z6uDY-5ad4oN-59DpNS-59zc8p-dLEH4S-dLz8wH-dLEEHs-dLEF5J-dLEGns-an3UP7-an16jt-7z2HBa-5adfH7-5ad45E-5a8Psn-5a91Bt-5adgaQ-5a8Pg8-5a92a8-5a9194-5adgLw-5ad5k9-5ad4Bw-5a912g-5adgVS-5adgrL-5adghL-5ad4N1-5ad4TN-dLEFwf-dLz9oV-dLEFcQ

Not seen this before - 30584 with number on both smokebox and buffer beam https://www.flickr.com/photos/landrovermike/8381752358/in/photolist-dLEEXG-dLzacB-59zbwB-59zbMe-59DpVj-5JMFrR-cUdJPm-7z2Hx4-59BNVF-6hg2VL-59DSDA-59DpxY-59zbqa-56tJMw-7v2Z1k-59zbPV-59Dq6f-59zbE8-7z6uDY-5ad4oN-59DpNS-59zc8p-dLEH4S-dLz8wH-dLEEHs-dLEF5J-dLEGns-an3UP7-an16jt-7z2HBa-5adfH7-5ad45E-5a8Psn-5a91Bt-5adgaQ-5a8Pg8-5a92a8-5a9194-5adgLw-5ad5k9-5ad4Bw-5a912g-5adgVS-5adgrL-5adghL-5ad4N1-5ad4TN-dLEFwf-dLz9oV-dLEFcQ

 

30584 was painted plain black and got its BR number in April 1948 when it was numbered and lettered "BRITISH RAILWAYS" in Bulleid style. This was when it got the buffer beam number. obviously not painted out when the smoke box number plate was fitted.

Responding to the last(?) post on the Radials under the 58ft coaches thread I would dispute Maskelyne's assertion that 3488 (30583) was given new frames to the original pattern when purchased from the EKR. Surely if the SR had reframed it they would have given her similar frames as had been fitted in 1930 to 3125 & 3520, and given her double slide bars to boot. According to D L Bradley "At some period (since the 1917 sale by the LSWR) the frames around the coupled wheel boxes had been roughly, if effectively, strengthened by doubling the plating, the riveted patches having been left with razor sharp jagged edges because of the primitive equipment. The frames remain in this condition today.

 

Yes five different builders built the Radials which accounts for some detail differences between members of the class. And the three survivors all came from different ones - 30582 (3125) from R Stephenson; 30583 (3488) from Neilson and 30584 (3520) from Dubs.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

Can we somehow move discussion of the Adams Radial Tank engine over to the thread dedicated to that subject.  The Maunsell rebuilt coaches were towed by many other SR/LSWR locomotives and used on many lines other than the Lyme Regis branch.

 

I am replying to this topic but I'm doing it under the Hornby Radial thread.

 

Regards

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

.......... And we don't know what Oxford Rail are planning. May find out more this weekend for the Bluebell!

.......... And we don't know what Oxford Rail are planning. May find out more this weekend for the Bluebell!

 

Oxford Rail's first three versions are 30583 "late BR" / 30584 "early BR" / 488 LSWR. It's not clear whether 488 will be actual LSWR or (more likely?) as preserved in LSWR livery.

 

0125 (3125 from Nov 1933)(30582) and 0520 (3520 from Jan 1934)(30584) received new frames in 1930 so as matters stand it might be difficult to pre-date them before 1930 but Hornby may well have allowed for this in their tooling? Pre-War both were in lined Maunsell green and, a small detail, the coal rails on the bunker would have been open until filled in around (?) 1939.

 

3520 was painted plain Maunsell green with Bulleid lettering/numbering in Jan 1940; plain black followed in Mar 1945. 3125 was painted plain black with Bulleid lettering/numbering in Nov 1941. As discussed 3488 did not enter SR service until Nov 1946, after acquisition from the EKR and overhaul, so it had plain black with Bulleid lettering/numbering for the whole of its brief S. Railway career.

 

In general these three locos are a minefield if you want to change the identity or period of a particular loco.

 

Ignoring boilers for the moment the principal visual differences between the three are:-

 

30582: new frames 1930 / double slide bars / no works plate / 3ft 7in radial wheels

30583: original frames / single slide bar / oval works plate on splasher / 3ft 1in radial wheels

30584: new frames 1930 / double slide bars / diamond works plate on splasher / 3ft 7in radial wheels

 

Then there are boilers; there were four available for the three survivors - one Adams with short dome (AS); one Adams with tall dome (AT) and two Drummonds (D) with safety valves on the dome. In the BR period the locos had the following boilers:-

 

30582: AS Dec 1945-Apr 1954 / D May 1954-July 1961 (withdrawal)

30583: D Nov 1946-Mar 1959 / AT Apr 1959 - July 1961 (withdrawal & preservation)

30584: AT Apr 1948-Aug 1954 / AS Sep 1954-Jan 1961

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

 

 

 

I am running into dead ends determining the set numbers and coach numbers of the Maunsell rebuild non-corridor coaches used in Bodmin-Wadebridge-Padstow services 1945-47. The non-corridor LNC sets are missing from the SEMG available download spreadwheet on set composition and I have not found them in any volumes available to me. (The Bodmin & Wadebridge Railway, Branch Lines around Bodmin, Branch Line to Padstow. I do not have Gould's works available.)  

 

I have built a small chart of the Hornby numbers and the details from chapter 7 Mike King's Illustrated History of Southern Coaches with corrected descriptions:

 

R4717 Diagram 99 SR 58' Maunsell rebuilt ex LSWR 48' eight compartment brake third class non corridor coach numbers 2636-2640 5 coaches (4/1936)

 

R4718 Diagram 98 SR 58' Maunsell rebuilt ex LSWR 48' six compartment lavatory brake third coach numbers 2625-2629 5 coaches (10-12/1936)

 

R4719 Diagram 418 SR 58' Maunsell rebuilt ex LSWR 48' six compartment lavatory brake composite class coach numbers 6401-6405 5 coaches (4/1936)

 

R4720 Diagram 31 SR 58' Maunsell rebuilt ex LSWR 48' nine compartment lavatory third class coach various 100-400 numbers 38 coaches (1-4/1935)

 

In 1944 Bodmin - Wadebridge - Padstow was worked by "gate" set 361 (6548 + 741) + a diagram 31 58ft lavy third. Photos indicate 361 was still in the Wadebridge area in Summer 1945 but by Summer 1947 it had moved to the Plymouth area. I don't know about 1946.

 

Sets 42-46 were, indeed, formed from diagram 99 BTLs 2636-2640 and diag. 418 BCLs 6401-6405 and they were marshalled in logical chronological order. In general SR notices were strict that "these sets must be kept intact...", but on the Lyme Regis Branch it was officially sanctioned that the diag. 418 BCL should work alone, and the diag. 99 BT was only added when traffic demanded it. No doubt this was to ease the burden on the venerable Radials as much as possible. When the BCL & BT were combined quite often they were coupled brake end to brake end. Except for set 46, sets 42-45 kept these formations until they were withdrawn between 1956 & 1958. 46 was increased to 5 coaches in June 1958 with three ex SECR diag. 52 10 compartment seconds. As such it was used on the "Kenny Belle" service but was withdrawn in April 1959.

 

Presumably Hornby are making the diagram 98 BTL (2625-2629) simply because it has the same body shell as the diag. 418 BCL. In Maunsell livery they were in 2-sets 51-54 & 56 with ex LSWR 56ft diag. 407 BCLs. None became loose before set 51 was disbanded c.1948, so unlikely that any worked loose in Maunsell green. After Nationalisation there were at least 2 loose examples. For instance 2627 was the Okehampton - Meldon workmans' coach in, at least, 1953 while 2626 was on the S&D by 1956 until withdrawn in 1959. In 1958 it was still in, revarnished but shabby, malachite.

 

The 38 diagram 31 TLs, numbered between 169 and 513, were largely loose. Most probably went to their demise in BR red between 1956 and 1960 but seven gained Southern Region green for their twilight years.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

Thanks, but, nevertheless, clarkeeboy, I regret my last post.  I posted it because I felt that blunt speaking should not cross the line into rudeness, and I felt, in some naive egalitarian way, that this principle should apply to all, even those who have been here a very long time and whose expertise and reputation means they command respect and carry weight. Perhaps I should have just accepted the snub and got on with life.  I am a little disappointed, because, if I may be entirely frank, I had long hesitated about joining any forum because of the perception that the hobby is dominated by grumpy old men laying down the law.  However, my experience has in general proved that this perception is wide of the mark.  Most people are patient, supportive, courteous and helpful and very giving of their time.  Criticism seems to be constructive, well-made and kindly meant.  Further, in retrospect, I realise that I have been oversensitive.  There are reasons why that might be the case, but it is not for me to plead special circumstances.  Instead I will endeavour to 'man-up'!

 

Anyway, more to the point, does any Southern expert know when the first of these rebuilds entered service? I think the Hornby blurb said the rebuilds commenced in May 1935, but did any enter service that year and is it known how early in the year?

 

The diagram 31 Lavy thirds were created Jan-May 1935.

 

The diag. 99 bke thirds and diag. 418 lavy bke compos (which formed 2-LAV sets 42-46) were built in April 1936. I have a photo dated 29 May 1936 showing one of sets 42-46 in use on the Lyme Regis branch.

 

The diag. 98 lavy bke thirds (dimensionally identical to d. 418) were formed Oct-Dec 1936. They were initially in 2-LAV sets 51-54 & 56. Their companion was a LSWR, SR diag. 407, 56ft lavy bke compo. These sets remained intact until the first was disbanded in c.1948.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

Even I feel somewhat guilty at adding to exchanges regarding Mr Maunsells converted carriage stock, on a thread seemingly intended for a debate on Mr Adams locomotives. But hey, no one seems to mind, and all the postings have been of high value.

 

So the reasonable conclusion might be that, along with Lyme Regis locos, we are soon to be offered a Lyme Regis Carriage set, which could be used elsewhere in the Western division. Where else can we go? I believe that the line was engineered by Arthur Pain, a gentleman not normally associated with the LSWR. The loco shed at closure was a rebuild, but I venture to suggest that the final design was influenced by the original, in which case we can recreate an historic record of an Arthur Pain Loco Shed, (with opportunities for GWR use elsewhere). With the Goods Shed, then a pair of new buildings for Scaledale. If OOC do not re-issue their Bristol K and L type buses soon, then OD will. And the Cobb is as modellogenic a scene as any, with or without Ms Streep.

 

PB

I don't think you should feel guilty, Peter! After all it's Hornby who tantalised us with the prospect of appropriate carriages to go with their Radial, in their video clip.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

Further to my post this morning, i have studied the lightened images courtesy of Bigherb, and it does look

as though the first and last coaches in the Adams Radial train are identical. It is difficult to study them closely,

But both seem to have 8 compartments with a grafted on van end, with Maunsell style duckets.

IF i am right there may only be two types of SR rebuilds in production. Unless Hornby have a composite

up their sleeve, there won't be any first class. BUT HEY! this is an observation not a criticism.

Carry on with the good work Hornby !.

I'm sure the first and last aren't identical - the configuration of the roof vents are different for a start. Yes the front coach is definitely van + 8 compartments ie diagram 99 BT. While the sides of the rear coach aren't very clear even in Bigherb's enhancement, backed up by the evidence of the roof vents, it seems to be 2 compartments / lav / 2 compartments / lav / 2 compartments + van, ie this would suit a diag. 418 BCL.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

The T3 is a much bigger loco and the driving wheels are 6' 7" against the 5' 7" on the Radial.

 

John

Further to John's reply I'd agree that a T3 is a 'bridge too far'. The only reasonable candidate for conversion would be an Adams 380 ('Steamroller') class 4-4-0 which did have 5' 7" drivers.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

A decision to produce suitable coaching stock may well hinge on the opportunity for repetition work of the component detail.

 

In the case of ex-LSWR stock for cross-country and branch line work, there were a substantial number of 3/4-sets dating from the 19th century, for which all carriages shared a common design of 56ft underframe. Some were fitted for electrical generation, some weren't. They were originally built as 4-sets, but by the 1930s had been reduced to 3-sets. They could appear all over the Western Division, but would not be a natural choice for a 415 Tank. However they would be perfect for S15-hauled semi-fasts from Exeter and Weymouth. Now there's a thought!

 

The 58ft underframe for the non-corridor stock seems to have been identical with the underframe for the Restriction 4 corridor carriages (also known as 59ft stock, just as you might have thought you could follow this)

 

The video clip linked above is a bit ambiguous. The end brake composite does appear to have the rain deflector moulded at the bottom of the body side, typical of the 58ft rebuilds. So we could well be looking at a number of possibilities. Fruitless to guess, Graham will tell us just as soon as he can!

 

However, I would not rule out a new 2-set at this stage.

 

 

PB

Having studied the clip several times I agree they are LSWR bodies rebuilt on SR 58ft underframes. Further, in my opinion, the leading coach is a diagram 99 BT; the middle one a diag. 31 TL and the rear one a diag. 418 BCL. The BT + BCL would make 2-LAV sets Nos. 42-46 which, inter alia, were synonymous with the Radials and the Lyme Regis branch from 1935 to 1958. The TLs were mainly loose and used as strengtheners. The sole survivor, 320, is on the Bluebell Railway and along with Maunsell diag. 2401 BCK 6575 (already in Hornby's range) were the first two carriages acquired by the Bluebell.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

Phil, The books I suspect you're thinking of are the Pullman Profiles by Anthony M Ford and published

by Noodle Books. So far there have been four:-

 

No. 1: The 12-Wheel Cars

No. 2: The Standard 'K-Type' Cars

No. 3: The All-Steel 'K-Type' Cars

No. 4: The Brighton Belle and Southern Electric Pullmans

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

Just to correct a common misconception the Hastings Pullmans were NOT short - they were the same

62ft 4in over headstocks as all other K class Pullmans. They were just narrower, ie 8ft 1in rather

than the usual 8ft 6in.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

The "coach sides" look like the internal corridor side screens for two LMS 7 compartment corridor thirds! Possibly from Westdale kits.

 

Chris Knowles-thomas

As the person who contributed the remark that 1705/06 were the last pre-Nationalisation (hauled) coaches in service perhaps I should comment.  Firstly, technically, this was true when they were withdrawn as 'Sc1999' was at that time still in service stock as Inspection Saloon DE902260!  But there is something strange about SC1999 - granted it started work on the W. Highland in 1980 but was it a 'normal' BR coach?  I could not find it in the relevant RCTS BR Coaching Stock books (which is why I overlooked it) which suggests it was not listed in official BR lists of capital stock.  A bit of a mystery as to what its official status really was.

 

This aside it was interesting in starting life as the prototype LNER Thompson (or Newton) coach - the unique diagram 334 FK No. 1531 of 1945, 61ft 6in in length as opposed to the 63ft of production Thompson FKs to diag.332.  Of course it was subsequently rebuilt as an Inspection Saloon.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas   

gc4946, on 13 Nov 2013 - 19:14, said:

Peter,

 

Thanks for posting photos of your ex-LSWR carriage stock, it looks like anyone considering a mass-produced version has to carefully choose which types to reproduce, taking into account the tooling costs involved and likely demand.

 

The lavatory brake 3rd in your final image is modelled with sliding doors to the guard's van.

Whereas the Bluebell Railway's preserved example has opening double doors, I'd go for the preserved version as people are more familiar with that type.

 

I'd wait to see how the Gate Stock sells as that was a most distinctive design in its own right which could be modelled as a compact two-coach set.

 

Echoing what GC4946 & PB have said I would endorse their views that if more 56 ft stock was to be produced the obvious choice would be the 4/3-LAV sets: BTL diagram 274 (preserved on the Bluebell)/ CL diag 274 ("preserved" on the KESR - though its future doesn't look hopeful) / TL diag 17 / BTL diag 124. They were built as 4 car sets but the SR reduced them to 3 from 1935, the diag 17 TLs going loose or to other longer sets. They were the only pure 56 ft sets - as already said all other sets involved a mixture of 56 ft & 58 ft coaches (the 58ft underframe being standard SR Maunsell with SR bogies), except the 'Lyme Regis' 2-LAV sets Nos. 42-46 where both coaches were 58 ft.

 

Though there is one damper to simply using the gate set underframe for other 56 ft stock. That is they didn't have 56 ft underframes! Although the gate stock bodies were 56 ft long the ends had turn unders so the actual underframe was only 55 ft 6.75 ins long!

 

Food for thought.

 

chris45lsw

PhilH, on 21 Dec 2013 - 17:53, said:

I'm hopefully going to get a couple to renumber to 30306 and 30695. My dad worked at Eastleigh shed (71A), my gran lived next door in Campbell Road with back garden backing on to the shed - this resulted in, from 5 years old, many happy hours over the ensuing years spent on the footplate of the Eastleigh shed pilot which always seemed to be either 306 or 695.

 

Something must have clicked as I'm still fannying around on the footplate nearly 60 years after my first visit.

 

81C, on 21 Dec 2013 - 20:26, said:

I thought you were older than that !! still not a bad little engine were they.

 

A point to note, if you are fussy, is that the 700s were built with 13 ft wheel base tenders (in fact the only (thirty) Drummond 13 ft wb tenders built). But, as a result of tender exchanges in 1925/26, 20 of the 30 strong class got 14 ft wb tenders in exchange for their original tenders.

 

From 1925/26 Nos. 316, 326, 339, 346, 687, 688, 694, 699 - 701 retained 13 ft wb tenders,

while 306, 308, 309, 315, 317, 325, 327, 350, 352, 355, 368, 689 - 693 & 695 - 698 had 14 ft wb.

 

But 30350 regained a 13 ft sometime after WW2, probably in the early 1950s - certainly by 1957.

 

Although Hornby's existing 6 wheel tender supplied with some of their T9s has the 13 ft wb I understand that Hornby are going to do the 14 ft wb version for the 700. Makes sense as it gives a choice of 20 locos to choose from instead of 10 locos only with 13 ft wb.

 

Chris45lsw

The Mess Van at Oswestry was probably an ex LSWR coach converted to a camping coach by the Southern Region.  Two were acquired by the WR following boundary changes and subsequently went into Departmental service with the WR & later LMR. 

 

Regarding the Birdcages Bachmann describe them as Brake Third, Brake Compo and Compo but the Brake Compo was second/third class and became all third from early SR days onwards.  Although Bachmann are going to sell them separately the vast majority were indivisible 3-sets for all their lives - formed  BT, CL, BTL.  They had to be indivisible because only the CL had a dynamo and battery boxes to supply lighting to all three coaches though the SR found this insufficient and later fitted the BT with a dynamo & battery boxes as well but the BTL never had these.   

 

Set 600, however, was made up to 6 coaches around 1933/34 but was disbanded in 1941 and it was this set which provided the coaches for Pull Push sets 660 & 661.

 

Another point to note is that the arrangement of windows in the first class saloon of the CL was altered about half way through the build.  It remains to be seen which version Bachmann will choose - I hope it wil be the later type (diagram 316) which would, inter alia, be suitable to adapt for PP set 660.

 

While these birdcages and the 'long ten' ten compartment thirds were the same length the birdcages had 'Fox' pressed steel bogies while the 'long tens' had the later Maunsell/Lynes bogie which became the SR standard bogie.  And the Birdcage sets had turnbuckle truss rod while the 'long tens' had angle iron truss bars.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

One obvious omission from this CAD is the centre rib on the cab roof.

 

Some comments on older postings on this topic:-

 

1.  Yes the SR used more than one size of air pump - this was discussed on the Southern email Group a while ago.

 

2.  The one time Wadebridge loco, 30203, had a Drummond style boiler from April 1946 until it was withdrawn Dec 1955.  30193 which Kernow are doing with the early BR emblem had a Drummond style fitted in June 1958 when it also gained the later crest.  But it was faulty & it reverted to an Adams boiler in August 1958!

 

3.  O2s reigned at Wadebridge for the Padstow - Bodmin North service until 1960 when they were replaced by 57xx panniers 4666 & 4694.  Even so, to my surprise, I found O2 30199 in Wadebridge shed in August 1961 as spare engine.  More annoying I had to put up with 4694 on my train to Bodmin N. but I've seen a photo of 30199 in use in Sept 1961!  The crews did not like the 57xx's so Ivatt class '2' tanks replaced them in 1962 and they lasted until June 1964 when the railbus shuttle was introduced between Boscarne Junc & Bodmin N.

 

4.  The reason P&P M7s had their pumps on the right and O2s on the left is because they were on the fireman's side, and M7s were left hand drive; the O2s right hand. 

 

Chris45lsw

Is the hose behind the coupler what you are looking for?

 

attachment=269272:K2105a_zpsf62c8ada.jpg]

K2105b_zpsc24e65db.jpg

K2105c_zps9e072b2f.jpg

You're not kidding! This is one of (the?) ex-GN articulated Louth set(s). Almost certainly the following (or one just like it):

 

GN artic set E47914E.jpg

 

There was a good deal of parsimonious 're-cycling' of old GNR 6-wheel and 8-wheel stock to form articulated rakes in the pre-war era and I'm hoping to put together such a rake for my project.

 

Thanks ever so much once again for taking the time to post.

 

(Love the glimpse of the D2 at Nottm Vic as well!)

 

You're not kidding! This is one of (the?) ex-GN articulated Louth set(s). Almost certainly the following (or one just like it):

 

GN artic set E47914E.jpg

 

There was a good deal of parsimonious 're-cycling' of old GNR 6-wheel and 8-wheel stock to form articulated rakes in the pre-war era and I'm hoping to put together such a rake for my project.

 

Thanks ever so much once again for taking the time to post.

 

(Love the glimpse of the D2 at Nottm Vic as well!)

Yes it is the same set - this Quad-art was a unique one off & lasted to, at least, 1954 mainly on the Mablethorpe loop.  It was formed 42ft BT(4) 47911, 32ft T(5) 47912, 36ft T(saloon) 47913 & 42ft BC (2/3) 47914.  And, yes, the end brakes were originally rigid 8 wheelers.  Does anyone know of any other artics made from old GNR 6 wheelers etc which lasted long into BR days? 

 

Fascinating & priceless set of photos in general; keep them coming, please!

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas