purplepiepete

Whilst I do support Phil as a (sometimes frustrated) customer of C&L and negativity often gathers momentum on forums, punters DO have a right to complain if customer service is poor and should not just 'put up and shut up' ! I don't know how much feedback gets back to him, or indeed how much notice he takes anyway, but having had over 12 months in ownership of C&L little seems to change with communication and delivery issues. Like many others I hope he turns things around to make a successful business, and whilst there is no magic wand to fix it quickly, I can't help thinking that while continuing on this course time may run out.

Agreed , given that cheques and postal orders have all but disappeared (and no one of sound mind would send cash in the post) the only real alternative is to use e-payments. Like most people I don't like bank transfers given the scams in operation these days and at least consumer protection is offered by card providers and Paypal. Sadly I guess traders have to either absorb the costs incurred or (groan) increase prices accordingly. As a regular on ebay I wince most months when the seller fees invoice arrives !

John, then I would suggest a quick / cheaper approach would be to use an ebay shop. Many traders have a basic 'front' website with a link to ebay. This avoids the huge cost of developing a new e-commerce site from scratch and may restore some confidence in online ordering as payments would likely be done via Paypal and communication via the messaging service. Issue is that clearly this is not zero cost option as both ebay and Paypal would charge commission - last time I spoke to Phil he thought these were excessive hence the current preference for bank transfer. Increasing product prices to cover charges would probably go down like a lead balloon !

I assume that, like my own orders, it was paid by bank transfer which seems to be Phil's preferred method i.e no charges and it helps his cashflow :-)

Posted from C&L Website homepage - maybe this (even with spelling and grammatical errors !) explains some of it ? However I can't help thinking that Phil could help himself here. The website has very good tracking facilities for orders which does not appear to work. I guess this happened in the transition from the previous owners and was disabled for some reason ? I can only assume that it's too costly to employ a web / e-commerce developer to investigate ? Or maybe he does not actually own the software i.e only has a 'right to use' / no IPR etc. Please note due to the volume of orders at busy times the mail orders may suffer delay in being dipatched this can be caused by waiting for replacement stock were their is a significant lead time in the supply chain.

You are wasting your time emailing as he doesn't respond. My orders have typically taken 6 - 8 weeks - whether this is due to stock problems, lack of time due to other commitments (i.e shows), supplier issues or just general poor business practise is unclear. The issue of communication has been raised a number of times and personally I think its inexcusable given the ease of providing this in a tech powered world, even if you are a one man business. Phil needs to be careful as I think that The Distance Selling Regulations require acknowledgment of pre-paid on-line orders and time bound delivery details.

John, I have not noticed this in 7mm, presumably because the chairs have more 'meat' to them, however definitely seen it in some 4mm chairs. The base of the chair is too thin as if the moulding process has not delivered enough plastic or maybe the temperature/pressure was incorrect as per your comments.

Agreed GMM, I have also noticed a difference between C+L and Exactoscale chairs over the past few years. I once asked Pete L at a GOG exhibition why I found the Exacto chairs easier to thread onto code 125 HINI rail and he said it was due to tolerance difference in the moulds but I also queried why the plastic seemed 'harder' (also diff colour) on the C+L range but he said the plastic used in the moulding process was the same. To me the Exacto chairs have always been superior in quality. I have also noticed variation in rail section due I guess to slight variations in the drawing process. Rail I bought a number of years ago seems a better chair fit to recent batches , also noticeable when using rail gauges which 'grip' the rail head. Some slide on neatly to the rail head and others don't fit on to the more recent code 125. The gauges were all bought at the same time as I did wonder if these had been a bit 'loosely' machined however I now believe this is due to rail section variation. Not surprising I guess given the passage of time and different suppliers.

Good grief ! Not for 7mm modellers it isn't unless these parts are going to be sold via the Scalefour Society ? Maybe the GOG sees an opportunity here :-)

True, maybe Mr Waterman should cough up by selling his gold taps ! However if rumours are true that he has already propped up the company to the tune of several mill then he has tried his best I guess. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/claim-money-back-from-a-bankrupt-person-or-company-in-compulsory-liquidation-guidance-for-creditors/claim-money-back-from-a-bankrupt-person-or-company-in-compulsory-liquidation-guidance-for-creditors Otherwise it's sadly the usual queue up and wait your turn as per. Does also sound to me like there has been a breach of the Distance Selling Regulations (as was) in this case ?

Hi, unfortunately I think you are correct as confirmed by this article link below. A last resort may be through the small claims court. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jun/23/paypal-buyer-protection-short-lived

Good arguments and fair points but few people put cash in a savings tin these days and I suggest that, if so inclined, most people would pay for big ticket purchases by credit card anyway thus making any 'reasonable purchase' accessible. Clearly in the case of JLTRT they weren't inclined.

Well said and I would add that there some very good and also very poor quality kits out there. I have bought a number of both over the years, my favourite being those of mixed media i.e resin/etched etc - the former Underhill kits being an excellent example of these from many years ago. There is also nothing worse than being confronted with a mass of etched parts and totally inadequate instructions with a few poor quality sketches leaving the builder to guess what goes where. I can quote some examples but seasoned kit builders will know which these are. The point is that a good quality kit not only requires decent well made parts it also requires comprehensive assembly details for the novice who has spent a wage packet on a kit. To solder/bend/form and construct a body and straight chassis is no mean feat and really requires jigs and bending bars as well as good quality soldering equipment. Personally I think the future is in 3D printing although it's in it's infancy and will be a while before it replaces high quality lost wax castings. As for cheap etched brass kits it's really a case of you get what you pay for and if that floats your boat then so be it.

I was thinking more in general terms however you are probably correct re JLTRT as it's down to supply and demand. In my experience these kits have never been commonplace on the secondhand market (and believe me I have looked) so I guess they will still achieve a good price. Given that they were made to order it seems very unlikely that someone will have a stock of these 'to clear'. In the event that these resurface in the future (after all the steam loco kits were originally Mitchell/Chowbent/Underhill etc) I guess this could change ?

very true and ebay is a wonderful thing for those of us in this situation ! Sadly this doesn't help the struggling kit suppliers........

“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.”― Charles Dickens, David Copperfield

BTW if anyone wants a Timber Tracks kit before they also stop trading this year check this out : http://www.timbertracks.co.uk

Agree 100%, but a few of us aren't going to sustain the kit industry who are no doubt faced with spiralling costs and shrinking sales. I hope that the specialists survive as cottage industries (as many start out) however can anyone provide cheap/reasonable quality/easy build/entry level kits (as the likes of Airfix once did) these days ?

kits and retirement projects ......and there's the crux ! Many 'younger' persons (myself NOT included) are time and skills poor these days and sadly kits don't have the same appeal as they did years ago. Why spend upwards of 600 quid on a locomotive kit (once you add wheels motor finish etc) when you can get RTR for half that ? Stating the obvious but JLTRT were very high quality / limited appeal at too high a cost compared with Dapol/Heljan etc which are sourced for manufacture in the Far East. Sad times and we Brits are great at many things, however the 'workshops of the world' have long since left these shores.

This may be your best route, however I better qualify that my order was for 7mm items. Whether or not this makes a difference I am unclear. It would be very helpful if Phil clarified the situation on the web site home page. I have spoken to him about improving communications but so far it's just a bit too 'vague'. No one would expect to publicly advertise the fact that a business is having supply difficulties, however to my way of thinking keeping your customers 'on board' is critical to continued success. I hope that things do turnaround as I, like many others, have depended on C&L and previous companies for the last 20 years.

For info the topic has moved (in depth) to this forum http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/127088-ordering-from-cl/page-9&do=findComment&comment=3022352

Make that at least 8 weeks - I have been waiting for an order since the 1st Dec (and it's only rail and chairs) !

I have been waiting nearly 2 months now for an order from C&L so gave Phil a call last week. He said he would get around to it 'in a week or two' and from the conversation appears to be faced with a number of issues which he is wading through. Personally I can wait, even though this is well beyond the turnaround now expected from an online business. Collecting from shows doesn't work for me due to living out in the sticks - most of these are 'south of Watford Gap' and too costly to attend. I guess in our cyber space world there is an expectation that robots process orders and run a business. There is of course a 'human' side to this. The point is although there are clearly many problems, pick up the phone and have a chat with Phil - he's a nice fella !

Wow, If I ever go down the route of Stainless Steel rail it sounds like I had better invest in a Plasma Cutter and MIG Welder first then !

Pete,