Ian Rathbone

I don’t know the detail of the Clifton Downs coaches but in the early years of BR all coaches were lined out but, for coaches in plain crimson, the lining ceased in about 1950. I have many photos of lined crimson coaches from the period. Ian R

I have started at 1923 because from that date liveries, and loco designs, were highly standardised and well documented, just not rigorously described, as I have tried to do. The problem with 19th and early 20th century liveries is the impossibility of using photos to trace the lining as the quality is poor and orange, like red, is rendered as black. Liveries were in a state of flux around 1903 to 1906, and then again during and after WW1. So, to do a rigorous analysis of the years before 1923 would take up more time than I have available. I presume the red frame question was based on this photograph - This was a commission to repaint the frames of a ‘Masterpiece Models’ early small Prairie, plus additional lining on the body. The commission came from a well respected engineer in the preservation business. I have now done three of these, nearly half the production run. The evidence is a works grey photo in Russell’s Locos of the GWR. It shows the lining on the cylinders on a background that is not black. Further examination shows lining around the frame apertures, again on a non-black background. One can only assume that the cylinders and frames were Indian Red. The caveat is whether works grey photos were followed literally in the painting of locos in service. In my opinion the few that were painted prior to 1906 probably had red frames, but not for long. Ian R

The model has the route disc on the cab side which would put it in the post grouping period, so between 1923 & 1934. I don’t know exactly when the portholes were plated over but Castles were being built with them in 1923. Let’s say it’s about 1925 but the green paint looks very light to me - not ‘bronze’ enough. It was quite a dark green back then. The buffer beams should be ‘China Red’ not the bright red it appears to be, or is that a result of the bright lighting Tony uses? For those who may be interested there is a full description of GWR liveries on my website. Meanwhile here is a really ugly outside frame loco - a scratch-built Kruger in 7mm. Ian R

Sorry, I lied in my last post. I’ve just found a photo of another 4mm A3 - on my own website. This one was built by Mike Edge, who’s built so many engines for me in the past. I don’t know why it hasn’t got a works plate, possibly because cutting out a King’s Cross pair was too much of a hassle. The other obvious error, for those of you who have being paying attention, is that the splasher tops should be blue. It was along time ago when I painted it. It would look so much better with a bit of weathering. Ian R

I’ve been looking through my photos and find that, apart from Tony, no one has ever asked me to paint a BR green A3. Apart from my own Papyrus I’ve never painted any other 4mm A3, strange that. Of the 7mm scale A3s the BR period ones have all been Sancheng RTR, a grand total of three. Anyway here’s a LNER one beautifully built by Graham Varley. Ian R

A couple of photos of the GSR 800 which Mike built. I posted pics of the painting process in the Irish Railways section of RMWeb last year. The colour is a best guess but it seems to be accepted by the Irish contributors. It is a 50:50 mix of English GNR Green and Irish GNR Blue. Ian R

The C14 is now painted and with its happy owner. A bit of a cruel close-up of this tiny engine. Ian R

Who’d be a painter indeed. Never use a photo to match a colour, only to assess the distribution of colour. It appears to me that the valances started out as green but a narrow valance with pipes attached will never be cleaned properly so will appear to be blackish. At the front end where it deepens it is definitely green. The valances were originally lined black and orange but at some point in the 50s, on the Eastern Region, the black edge was omitted. More interesting to me, as a painter, is the colour of the splasher tops. On a Doncaster engine they were green, as seen on Humorist, but it very difficult to tell from most photos what the colour was. Ian R

Another LNWR loco that I built, 0 gauge this time. Greater Britain was painted in Post Office Red for Queen Victoria’s Jubilee celebrations.Other areas normally black were painted navy blue. The whole was lined out in gold and navy. The loco’s uncoupled drivers originally had a motor each, but now it has a single motor with a Delrin chain drive, (easier for dcc). Ian R

I’ve just discovered this thread. Yes, I built this one many years ago. Another build of mine that appears on London Road is this - Ian R

Sorry, I got the date wrong, yes it was 1951. 1953 was the year that the Southern Region started using the BR power class system. Ian R

You’ve missed out the third wing - those who have vast knowledge, have no intention (or ability) to build anything but take pleasure in criticising other people’s work - the rivet counter. Although unloved and unwanted they are as much part of the hobby as the rest. As a painter I find it difficult to see beyond the paintwork just as, say, a professional signaller would immediately note the signal errors on a layout. I also cringe at white window frames on period layouts. To build any type of layout accurately would take more knowledge and skill than 99% of us have, so we have to tolerate the odd error and look at the broader picture, except perhaps banjo domes. (Hint, take photos from rail level so the type of dome is obscured). Ian R

It is true that no class 8 loco was painted in BR lined black - they only became class 8 in 1953, before that they were class 7. One for the pedants. Ian R

I agree that Humbrol 69 is totally useless these days, in fact I opened a new can of 9 this morning and that was oily and too thin. Before the paint formula changed it was always about 50:50. I put some of each paint on a palette and let the oils evaporate off for a bit then mix and put in the pen with a cocktail stick. I bought some Railmatch yellow because of Humbrol problems but found that was as bad. I think it’s the safety elves restricting the types of pigment that can be used in ‘hobby paints’. I will stick with Precision in future. Ian R

Er, 46143 and 46168, and possibly others were painted in lined black in 1948/9. I have photos. Your splasher lining is incorrect, the cream/grey line did not continue along the bottom of the splasher face except on the Western and Southern Regions. Ian R

Yes, Tudor has built ‘Neath’ as well. Meanwhile here’s another one, don’t ask me what it is. Also built by Tudor. Ian R

The ‘gold’ lining on GW coaches is not gold but yellow ochre, the same colour as LNW coach lining. Precision paints do ‘Ochre Lining’ paint. You can make this by mixing Humbrol Tan (9) with Yellow (69). The bolections, reveals and drop lights were originally mahogany but due to weathering and wear they were eventually painted in a matching colour - I use Indian Red rather than Venetian Red. PP do these as SECR Frame Indian Red and SR Venetian Red. Ian R

Here’s one I painted for Tudor Watkins, scratch built by him. Ian R

Too late for these but in future leave the vents off until lining is done. This will give you room to get the lining on the beading around the vent. If the vent fins themselves are lined it is easier to get the vents horizontal after lining. I’ve lined so many coaches where some of the vents are on the squint. Ian R

True, except I’ve seen a preserved one with gaps, (don’t get me going on preserved livery errors). The actual dims are 1/4” orange, 2” black, 1/4” orange, so 2.5” overall. Ian R

It is simple maths - trigonometry to be exact. Any pair of parallel lines (at right angles to the viewer) when viewed at an angle will appear to be closer together. The formula is D = W sin a, where D is the apparent width, W is the actual width and a is the viewing angle. So a pair of lines 2” apart will appear to be 1” apart when viewed at 30 deg. (Sine 30deg = 0.5). It is not perspective, that only applies to lines moving away from the viewer. Hope this clears all this nonsense up. BR lining is 2.25” wide, full stop. 1/8” orange, 1/2” green, 1” black, 1/2” green, 1/8” orange. The only time this varied was on boiler bands that were not 2.25” wide (except Western Region). Ian R

Here’s a model of the CB&SCR 4-6-0T in 4mm, builder not known. In later years they were just plain black. Ian R

Hello Tony & Co. Before RTR the SECR was never popular, simply on the grounds of cost of painting the model. Were I to do this 4mm Class H (built by Steve Duckworth) today the cost would be £400+ and I would be very picky about the quality of the build. It seems to me that the 4mm RTR locos are good value considering the number of operations required to apply the livery provided, of course, they are mechanically sound. This Class D, built by Graham Varley in 7mm, would cost somewhat North of £800 to paint. Then add to that the cost of a very accurate build. There are 5 colours on each tender axle box, some very fancy lining on the tender front and every wheel spoke is lined. In terms of colour we are very much in the hands of the paint manufacturers and their interpretation. I used to use Precision BR Green but now use Landrover ‘Deep Bronze Green’ since moving to cellulose paints. I now feel that the PP colour is too blue. Ian R

This is one I painted for Mike many years ago. I can’t remember how it was powered, perhaps Mike can say. The prototype eventually became BR 26600 after being in store for most of its life. Ian R

Here’s one I nearly built. I did a lot of work on the main body castings, removing all the boiler bands, thinning all the edges and generally making everything smooth. In the end I gave it to Mike Edge to build as I ran out of time. I can’t remember which grey I used but I followed a photograph where the black bits were clearly visible. The letters and numbers are standard Methfix over painted. Ian R