brumtb

Thanks for your researching, it does help to define traffic patterns although in my mind Bull Ring station is a little further west than Moor Street which would ease the gradient from the Bordesley direction but increase the climb to Central Goods. Great western passenger trains would terminate at Bull Ring from the south whilst Midland passenger trains would run on the Camp Hill - West Suburban circuit. Freight trains between Bull Ring and Central Goods would be short trip interchange workings. However, whilst those short trip workings would face a stiff climb the gradient for passenger trains could possibly be eased if the linking line bypassed Central Goods and continued independently to join the West Suburban line at Church Road junction utilising in part the line to the original BWS terminal station at Granville Street. I believe that line became what was known as Cemetery Siding although it does seem to be on a higher level than Central Goods. I would be very interested in your thoughts.

Hmm, contra-factual, well, not entirely made up but certainly fictitious. I'll happily follow Mark Twain, "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" but it can't even be proved that he said it. Which is somehow fitting! I've always envisaged that the GW/Midland connection was much nearer to Bordesley, indeed, its only relatively recently that the I saw the diagram of the modern proposals. Tony

Hello Guy In my world the GW and Midland lines meet at Bordesley where a chord from the Camp Hill line connects with and runs alongside the GW line to Moor Street (Bull Ring) and then continues on to Central Goods and the West Suburban. Similar to the current proposals shown below, as far as Moor Street, anyway. With a hefty dose of wishful thinking!

Thanks for your kind comments, more pictures will follow as I progress the layout. The Keilcraft "1920" Birmingham Tram is a 4 wheeler with open balconies and the 1920 trams were bogie vehicles from what I read in http://www.robertdarlaston.co.uk/Trams.htm so it can probably be taken to be a pre 1913 tram. I must admit I'm no expert but it pleases me to go along with that assumption! Tony

My 39xx was built around a Bachmann 45xx with cylinders removed, retaining the smokebox, boiler, firebox, assembly but otherwise building a new superstructure. I know the driving wheels are a little undersize but to me, it is worth it to have an operational 39xx! Tony

Thanks Chris, yes I've been working on the layout for some time and generally going back in time as I go. I'll have to work on a track plan, but it is along two walls of a 14' x 8' room with some pretty sharp hidden curves and lots of compromises! I've always liked the 39xxs since the "Plastic Prairie" article in RM about 45 years ago' especially as they were a particularly Birmingham area loco originally and I'm Brummie by birth. No I'm afraid the trams don't work, a step too far! Tony

Birmingham Bull Ring is a joint Great Western and Midland Railway station on the south side of the city and at the centre of a complex of joint lines serving the city. Bull Ring is a little to the west of where the GWR Moor Street station is in reality. Bull Ring was developed as both companies were experiencing overcrowding in their principal stations, Snow Hill and New Street. Bull Ring and its associated lines give the Midland access from the west via the Birmingham West Suburban line, bypassing its Central Goods depot and via links with the GWR from the Camp Hill line to the south east. There is also access to Central Goods from the east easing congestion around the New Street lines. The network of joint lines to the south east includes Digbeth and Deritend stations, both being jointly accessed. Digbeth includes a small local goods yard and limited goods interchange sidings for onward movement to Central Goods. Deritend also has interchange sidings and access to a canal basin operated by the Birmingham Canal Navigations Company. Modelled traffic is therefore local passenger trains of both companies, local goods and trip workings across the Birmingham area including some LNWR activity, parcels and perishables for the city markets. The layout is set broadly in the late pre-grouping period but the idea is to an impression of the times rather than be too tied to reality! It is a work in progress and hopefully will keep me occupied for many years to come as age takes its toll and ability reduces! PS: Some of the above fiction may well become fact in the coming decade with the reopening of passenger stations on the former Midland Camp Hill Line and the proposed Bordesley Chord to allow trains off that line direct access to the former GWR Moor Street station. I like to think there are echoes of the old Birmingham Bull Ring market hall! Class 39xx 2-6-2T prepares to leave with a Stratford upon Avon line train.

I ran one of the 0-4-2s for years without the traction tyres. it probably wasn't pretty but it ran better than the original without any problems but it was on code 100 track. Tony

That's a shame, that's where my thoughts were going. Back to the drawing board! Tony

Thank you for this useful info. So it should be possible to produce a Standard No 2 by extending a Standard No 3 by 3mm (in 4mm scale)? Tony

This is all very interesting, thank you! I note from Russell that Armorel was fitted with a Standard 3 in 1933, does RCTS give any fitting dates for the other Bulldogs? I'm hoping for an early fitting to a straight frame Bulldog! Tony

Many thanks Miss Prism and JimC I'll follow this up. Tony

The excellent GWR Modelling website suggests in A Beginners Guide to Outside Framed 4-4-0s that "during the 1920s some Bulldogs, both straight and curved frame, were fitted with the smaller and shorter Number 3 boiler" . Having just completed a reasonable (to me) representation of a GWR 36xx which also used the Standard Number 3 boiler https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131939-representational-modelling-early-1920s-gwr-36xx/page/2/ I'm seeing possibilities for another Dukedog to Bulldog conversion. I used a modified Mainline 2251 boiler to represent a Standard Number 3. Can anyone point me to information sources which might have details of Bulldogs so fitted and when please?

For my 1920s Birmingham area themed layout I've been looking for typical motive power to complement the GWR 39xx 2-6-2T shown earlier in this thread. The obvious choice became a 36xx 2-4-2T. Taking inspiration from another Railway Modeller article, A Birdcage for Polly, November 1977, I looked at how to use the same techniques but with more modern materials. Bachmann's Lancashire & Yorkshire 2-4-2 seemed a likely donor as its overall dimensions are very close, despite the driving wheels being a little large, especially as some sources say the prototype 36xx was based on the L&Y prototype. The Bachmann model was stripped down to the running plate and tanks, cab and bunker built up from plasticard using the drawings in Russel's Great Western Engines. The boiler is an ex Mainline 2251 with extended firebox. Fittings are mainly from Alan Gibson, Brassmasters or the scap box. 3629 was shedded at Leamington in 1921 and so fits in with my 1920 to 25 timeframe. Fitted with a Zimo decoder it pulls well and shares passenger duties with the 39xx.

Very useful, thank you Neil. I've already discovered a topic I'd missed! Tony

I look forward to seeing the result. Good luck! Tony

That looks really good and so full of promise for the future. Well done! Tony

The colour block in the book seems to match Pantone 4625. Tony

Looks really promising. Tony

Liveries of the Pre-Grouping Railways Volume One, Wales and the West of England, shows a colour block for Taff Vale Carriage Brown and gives its specification as Pantone 4625 or British Standard 5252 06 C 40. It can be seen at https://www.e-paint.co.uk/bs5252_colour_chart.asp although they do say web colours are unreliable and you should buy the chart! I'd rather buy the book! Tony

As I continue backdating my (in progress) layout from the 1950s to the early 1920s I've been looking at which items of rolling stock I can reuse. Taking my cue from Nile, of this forum, I've tackled the Bachmann Midland brake van. I mainly followed Nile's route but did find that a fibreglass burnishing brush removed the BR markings without the need for repainting. I also shortened the inner veranda access handrails and added a representation of the train control system tablet racks in accordance with a photo in Bob Essery's Illustrated History of Midland Wagons, Volume 2. The lettering is from HMRS sheet 17. An enjoyable exercise!

Midland Railway 1377 class as rebuilt. No 1741 was a long term Birmingham loco, delivered new to Saltley in 1884 and returned to Saltley after its rebuilding in 1924 where it remained until withdrawn in 1932. It is fitted with Ramsbottom safety valves and is in the 1924 LMS livery. It fits in nicely with my Birmingham GWR/Midland joint themed layout Birmingham Bull Ring, as it is backdated from the 1950s to the early 1920s. The classification 1F for these locos was not introduced until 1928 and they did not exist in the form produced by Bachmann in Midland Railway days, so this is the earliest it can be backdated to without major surgery. However a really useful loco and thanks to Bachmann for producing it.

Many thanks for prompting me to go a bit further!

HMRS Sheet 17 LMS pre group wagon insignia.

I do enjoy trying to resurrect old models that fit in with my preferred modelling period, the early 1920s. I do feel that these have a character that is missing from RTR models even if they are more technically accurate and perfectly finished. I acquired this as a collection of four glue encrusted body parts and a damaged roof section. The body is white metal , maker unknown. Also unknown initially was the prototype but a search of Midland Wagons Vol 1 by Bob Essery highlighted two partial photos and a brief mention of 20 vans built in 1915 and a further 20 in 1918 which seem to be the subject of the original kit. The only additional information came from a Ken Werrett drawing in the December 1975 edition of Railway Modeller. Having cleaned up the whitemetal items I put the body back together strengthened by an interior stripwood framework. The plastic roof was reworked and the distinctive roof ribs and ice containers added. The body was mounted on a cut down Dapol 10ft wb chassis with the moulded on brake levers removed and replaced by separate ones from the spares box as were the buffers. Lightly weathered I think it has character and fits well in my early 1920s modelling period.