SED Freightman

5 hours ago, C126 said:

I hope I will be forgiven for posting this question here, instead of a new thread, but could someone please tell me the names of staff in the local goods yards?  I am more interested in the 1970's-1980's, but all information gratefully received.

 

Inspired by @Rivercider 's B.F.I. T.O.P.S. film (above), I have composed a list of figures to buy for my goods yard, and am not sure how many staff to allocate and what they would be called.  "Yard Master" was for marshalling yards, I think; what was the manager in charge of a goods yard called?   Would he stay in the office and have a Clerk to supervise the wagons?  What are the names of the men un-/loading wagons ("Stevedore", but this is for docks)?

 

I am modelling a little yard of four sidings, including a coal-merchant and an agricultural warehouse, but two for 'general merchandise', with the steam-age goods shed demolished.  Thanks as always for giving this your consideration.

A small yard as you describe is very unlikely to have had its own manager by the early 1980's, on the South Eastern Division I think only Bricklayers Arms and Hither Green Continental Depot had dedicated managers, all other freight depots and sidings came under the control of the local Station Manager, although at the busier locations they may have had an Assistant Station Manager or Freight Assistant with specific responsibilty for keeping an eye on things. A handful of locations employed a Freight Clerk or two (eg.Plumstead, Rochester, Ashford, Dover) who would deal with the paperwork for their own yard and other local sidings or unstaffed yards.  Any railway staff  dealing with loading and unloading would be in the grades of Railman or Leading Railman, they could also undertake shunting duties and may be trained (and sometimes very skilled) in the loading and securing of particular types of traffic.  Any unusual loads to be handled would probably see a visit from either the Divisional Loading Inspector or Terminals Inspector to provide guidance and assistance whilst the SED also had a couple of Mobile Freight Gangs who could be called upon to assist with short term or ad-hoc movements from locations that were normally unstaffed, eg. loading nuclear flasks at Dungeness or occasional invalid carriages at Tonbridge.

The term Yard Master sounds like an Americanism, so probably arrived with the advent of EWS.

18 hours ago, Davexoc said:

 

A bit OT really, but AFAIK Chinnor was driver, secondman and guard in a brake van, because the crossing(s) were train crew operated. The loop was short so the trailing load limited and once run round and put away, the empties were collected from the remnants of the branch, having got there via the tippler and moved by gravity.

OT but still interesting, particularly the TMO Crossing(s), the trains from Halling certainly had no brakevan so perhaps a WR guard was picked up to ride in the rear cab from Acton ML, I guess we are unlikely to find out at this late stage.

12 hours ago, Davexoc said:

The thing with all those trains is that they are too long to run round at Chinnor, so would have to have been split at Princes Risborough, or just outside Chinnor. Problem with the second approach is, the line isn't flat, and one day in unfitted days, a too long train was split at the top of the hill and the brake in the guards van didn't hold. Result, the guard and four thirteen year-olds who had grabbed a lift from Wainhill crossing legged it after the runaway unpinning brakes and hanging off levers stopping it just before it got to the steepest bit. If we hadn't been there that day, I reckon it would have crashed through the crossing and got most of the way back to Risborough....

I suspect the trains were split outside Chinnor as I do not recall mention of the need to split at Princes Risborough and the TOPS consists show the whole train set out for Chinnor although thats not necessarily an accurate reflection of what happened in far off parts.  Any idea if there would there have been a travelling shunter based at Princes Risborough or were the train crew left to fend for themselves ?

In 1988 a total of 11 trainloads of foreign coal were forwarded from Halling to Chinnor, the coal arrived via Rugby Cement's own wharf on the River Medway on a small vessel or barge having been delivered in a bulk carrier to Thamesport.  Two sets of HTV wagons were provided to convey the traffic, with loaded and empty sets being swapped at Chinnor, giving Rugby Cement about three days to load at Halling and a week to unload at Chinnor.  I have not managed to uncover full details for each train, but what I have is shewn below. The loaded wagons were generally tripped from Halling to either Hither Green or Hoo Junction on the day prior to the trunk movement or Friday if forward on Monday. The departure and arrival times are actual rather than planned.

Mon 22/02/1988

7Z50 0940 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - 33008 + 33016 + 30 ld HTV's arr.?

Mon 29/02/1988

Hither Green Yd to Chinnor  - Loco ? + 34 ld HTV's arr.1345

Fri 04/03/1988

Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco? + 32 ld HTV's arr.1230

Thu 10/03/1988

Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco ? + 30 ld HTV's arr.1450

Thu 17/03/1988

Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco? + 31 ld HTV's arr.1205

Fri 25/03/1988

7Z63 1222 Hoo Junction to Chinnor - 33040 + 33055 + 31 ld HTV's arr.1535

Fri 15/04/1988

7Z63 1237 Hoo Junction to Chinnor - 47186 + 29 ld HTV's arr.1544

Fri 22/04/1988

7Z63 1233 Hoo Junction to Chinnor - 47521 + 32 ld HTV's arr 1545

Fri 29/04/1988

7Z63 1255 Hither Green to Chinnor - 33057 + 33008 + 31 ld HTV's arr 1505

Fri 07/05/1988

7Z63 1424 Hither Green to Chinnor - 47339 + 34 ld HTV's arr.1755

Fri 13/05/1988

7Z63 1425 Hither Green to Chinnor - 47016 + 28 ld HTV's arr.1645

21 minutes ago, the_orf84 said:

On a similar note, I have noted on here, as well as in my Freightfax, mention of 'y' journeys.  What is a 'y' journey? 

 

A train shewn as 'Y' in the WTT could run to more than one of two or more destinations as dictated by traffic demand.  In the case of the 7V79 1312 (SX Y) from Angerstein Wharf it could run to either Park Royal or Paddington New Yard as determined by the customer who would generally advise their requirements on a Thursday for the following week.  The details of where the train was to run on which day would then be published on a weekly or daily notice for signallers and ground staff whilst the train crew diagrams would also be amended as necessary.

On 06/03/2021 at 21:25, Rods_of_Revolution said:

 

A slightly tangental question, if they were end loading multiple flat wagons using a ramp, would they put boards between the wagons and load them at once, or would they position each wagon individually for loading directly from the ramp?

As always it depends on a number of factors.  At smaller stations the end loading dock was often only on a short siding, so only one or two wagons could be positioned for loading at a time.  If there was no loco available for a turnover shunt then it may be necessary to wait for the next visit of the local goods train to remove the loaded wagons and replace them with more empties.  Meanwhile the loaded wagons could either be forwarded once ready or held in another siding until the whole consignment was ready to go.  If the wagons required examination by a loading inspector or needed to be forwarded as an exceptional load then it is likely that they would be held back until all could be examined and forwarded in one go.  Another consideration would be whether the trailers could be manhandled along a raft of wagons during loading or whether they they needed to be backed on by some type of vehicle, in the case of the latter it may be too difficult to reverse the trailers along more than one or two wagons.  If more than one wagon was to be loaded at once then bridging plates would need to be placed between each wagon unless they were designed for end loading in which case they may be equipped with drop down ends to act as bridging plates.  Most end loading docks were equipped with hinged bridging plates to cross the gap to the first wagon.

On 05/03/2021 at 19:30, Davexoc said:

 

Chinnor only ever received coal, all finished product was roaded out, mainly in tanks, but my neighbour drove a flatbed for bagged, often driving to Northfleet. The coal came in from Nottinghamshire until shortly before closure when it was imported, so it could come up the line, this link is interesting....

https://djipix.com/view/gallery/images?category=1&subcategory=1

 

Thanks for posting the link showing (Image 35) the return working off 7Z63 1255 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor, which was worked by 33008 + 33057, and clearly shows that the SED locos and crews worked through to Chinnor, I guess there was not much route learning necessary to cover the branch from Princes Risborough.

The following services to Greenford (Rugby Cement), Paddingtone New Yard (Tarmac Topmix) and Park Royal (Tarmac Topmix) appeared in the SR Freight WTT commencing 02/10/1989, they would all have been worked by Hither Green based locos and crews throughout.

6V25 0441 (SO) Halling RPC to Greenford RPCM - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop.

6O58 0935 (ThO) Greenford RPCM to Halling RPC - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn.

7V27 2032 (SX Y) Angerstein Wharf to Paddington New Yd - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop.

7O47 0302 (SX Y) Paddington New Yd to Angerstein Wharf - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn.

7V79 1312 (SX Y) Angerstein Wharf to Park Royal - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop.

7O65 1945 (SX Y) Park Royal to Plumstead Yd - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn.

7V79 1312 (SX Y) Angerstein Wharf to Paddington New Yd - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop.

7O65 1930 (SX Y) Paddington New Yd to Plumstead Yd - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn.

The BP oil traffic from Grain to Thame finished around 1984 with the run down of the BP Kent Refinery after which it originated from the Shell Refinery at Thameshaven, albeit still on BP's account I think.

In the days of VB wagonload traffic, Cox & Danks at Park Royal used to despatch scrap in minfits to Sheerness Steel, although no doubt they sold to other companies as well.

The coal traffic mentioned by Davexoc from North Kent to Chinnor passed in 1988 and the few trains that operated, conveying imported coal in HTV's, would have used the route via Greenford as they were worked by Hither Green crews who would previously have worked to Thame.  I have details of the motive power and formation of these services if anyone is interested.

Reference the earlier discussion on collected tickets it occured to me to have a look in the SR Phone directory, the last ever copy of which was dated 01/09/1992. The page covering Purley (copy appended below), gives a number for the D.O.F.A.S. Collected Ticket Section along with the Muniments Stores mentioned by Nearholmer.  It would appear that the used ticket checking operation was relocated from Clapham Junction, perhaps around the time Aptis was introduced, as there is nothing mentioned for them at Clapham Junction although the Fire Safety organisation activity was still based there.

2 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Also there, for the less engineering and operations minded, was the Ticket Collection Office, which received all the used tickets, stubs and 4407's taken by ticket collectors and guards throughout the SR. I had to go there several times on fraud enquiries. It was run by four, middle aged ladies, who really knew their stuff. In amongst the piles and piles of old tickets, they could point me to exactly what I needed within a few minutes. Miraculous, if you had seen it. We caught many ne'er do wells that way. I think it shut down after APTIS/PORTIS fully came in, when it became much easier to track down frauds.

I'm sure that at one time collected tickets and used seasons etc. were sent in pre-addressed envelopes to the Ticket Checking Section, Purley (possibly located in the old loco shed), did the Clapham Junction office move to Purley or vice versa, or was it a separate operation ?

I had a couple of visits to the fire training school off St John's Hill, Clapham, the best part of which always came at the end of the course when you got the opportunity to point a fire extinguisher at a couple of burning cardboard boxes !  On one occaision, whilst based for a while at Southern House but commuting from Kent, I remember being a bit put out at having been sent for fire training at Clapham whilst a colleague living in Colliers Wood was sent for fire training at Ashford Works and duly reported back on the delights of the Kiln Cafe.

23 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Yes!

I had that pleasure about 10 years later, I think the course was run by the then chief clerk from the Waterloo CTEB, but I don't recall any interesting guest speakers.

7 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

In January 1968 I attended a BR course for Information Office staff at Broadstairs. Sidney De Haan was a guest speaker. 

At Kingsgate College ?

Folkestone Harbour on 22/06/2018, now forming part of the the former Harbour Station and Pier tourist attraction.

54 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

A few minor ones (such as lack of compatibility with EMU's for the 73/0's), but their main problem was being underpowered in diesel mode (just 600 hp). Hence their use in pairs quite a lot, when on not particularly heavy train loads. So, whilst they could fairly easily haul a 1,000 tonne train on the third rail, they would often need a second loco to do the "last mile", off the juice, which was a bit of a waste overall. Of course, when designed, there weren't that many 1,000 tonne trains on the SR (if any?), but increasingly the cross-London freights, and even the Dovers, were easily making that weight and more as time went on, what with the  aggregate and scrap 102 tonners, and the longer car trains. The later power upgrades for some of the fleet (re-classified 73/9) did attempt to rectify that to some extent, doubling the diesel power to around 1500/1600 hp, by installing two MTU/Cummins engines).

The were used in pairs on MGR coal trains to/from Cricklewood Brent Sdgs, around 1600t trailing load, not fast but they got there over the non electrified Dudding Hill Branch.  As Mike mentions, the JA's and JB's would not work in multiple, an issue which resulted in the occasional cancellation of Betteshanger - Scunthorpe MGR trains when for a time the empties were worked in with a single loco and another arrived light engine from Ramsgate (off a newspaper train ?), all good unless the Ramsgate loco turned out to be a JA.

I can answer my previous question - this photo clearly shows tanks being washed out at Vauxhall https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2017/post-238-0-44016500-1485421859.jpg

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The last thing any driver wanted was anything swilling about in a train of milk tanks.  One hard brake application and loaded milk tanks would let a Driver forget about it for miles as the darned things alternately plucking and buffering up due to the milk swiling to & fro inside them.

I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the tanks would contain baffles to prevent the undesirable movements you mention with the potential risk of lock buffering or derailment following a sudden brake application, although I can also see that internal baffles would possibly make the internal cleaning of tanks more difficult.  Thinking further about the cleaning question, is there any evidence of the tanks being cleaned at Vauxhall as this would have required hot water to be piped from the dairy ?

While digging through some SR WTT's for the period 02/05/1977 to 07/05/1978 I came across the following milk services which may be of interest :-

6O19 1640 (SUN) St Erth ) to Morden South - Arr. 0430 (EWD)

6O19 0308 (MX) Acton    )

Worked by DL but no headcode shewn so presumably a WR loco.

Ran via West London Line, Clapham Yard (0351-0415), Earlsfield.

6019 1703 (SO) St Erth to Morden South - Arr. 0430 (SUN)

Worked by DL but no headcode shewn so presumably a WR loco.

Ran via West London Line, Clapham Yard (0351-0415), Earlsfield.

6V05 1500 (SX) Morden South to Acton - Arr. ?

Worked by EDL, headcode G2

Ran via St Helier (run round), Wimbledon, East Putney, Clapham Junction, West London Line.

Interestingly there were no return services shewn on SO or SUN.

The following services were shewn as 'Train suspended but path reserved for future use', did traffic to Vauxhall ever resume ?

6Y26 0936 (EWD) Clapham Yard to Waterloo - Arr.1253

Worked by DSL

Called Vauxhall 0948 - 1248.

5Y20 1320 (EWD) Waterloo to Clapham Yard - Arr.1340

Worked by DSL

6Y27 0750 (SUN) Clapham Yard to Waterloo - Arr.1107

Worked by DSL

Called Vauxhall 0803 - 1102

5Y20 1134 (SUN) Waterloo to Kensington Sidings (Clapham Junction) - Arr.1150

Worked by DSL

7 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

All this makes me wonder when the empty tanks were cleaned out; at the collection or delivery point? It seems they were never cleaned outside!

I would guess they were cleaned at the unloading terminal before the residue dried and became harder to remove, although I wonder if some cleaning agent or water was left in the tank for the return journey so that it could swill around the inside in much the same way that water was put into the clay tanks at Sittingbourne before they were despatched back to Burngullow.

The following workings appear in various sections of the SR WTT of Mandatory Services, dated 02/05/1977 to 07/05/1978.  Edited after a trawl through more WTT's has revealed that the ECS was stabled at Margate from Saturday to Tuesday and Folkestone East from Thursday to Saturday. Use of Folkestone West would have allowed a leisurely transfer of passengers to and from road transport in the same way that the VSOE has operated in recent years, although back in the 70's other trains could pass on the Fast Lines.  Interestingly both northbound services called at Herne Hill to load stores, presumably catering supplies.

1E12 0955 (TO) Margate to York - Arr. ?

Headcode C9

Operated until 14/06/1977 also 06/09/1977 to 18/10/1977

Ran via Chatham, Bromley South, Herne Hill (1135-1139 to load stores), Clapham Junction, Kew East Jn.

1O43 0931 (TO) York to Margate - Arr.1619

Headcode C9

Operated until 07/06/1977 also 30/08/1977 to 11/10/1977

Ran via Kew East Jn, Clapham Junction, Nunhead, Bromley South, Chatham.

5O43 1642 (TO) Margate to Fratton Yard - Arr. 2110

Headcode C8 to Clapham Jn, thence 07.

Operated until 07/06/1977 also 06/09/1977 to 11/10/1977

Ran via Canterbury West, Orpington, Herne Hill, Clapham Junction, Hounslow, Woking, Guildford.

5E12 1056 (ThO) Fratton Yard to Folkestone East - Arr. 1616

Headcode 07 to Clapham Jn, thence C8 (SWD WTT shows forward as C9).

Operated until 09/06/1977 also 08/09/1977 to 13/10/1977

Ran via Guildford, Woking, Wimbledon, East Putney, Clapham Junction, Herne Hill, Orpington, Ashford, Dover Marine (1455 - 1605).

5E12 0945 (SO) Folkestone East to Folkestone West - Arr. 0949

Headcode C8

Operated until 11/06/1977 also 10/09/1977 to 22/10/1977

1E12 1002 (SO) Folkestone West to York - Arr. ?

Headcode C8

Operated until 11/06/1977 also 10/09/1977 to 22/10/1977

Ran via Ashford (1018-1027), Tonbridge, Orpington, Herne Hill (1135-1139 to load stores), Clapham Junction, Kew East Jn.

1043 0931 (SO) York to Folkestone West - Arr. 1630

Headcode C5

Operated until 04/06/1977 also 03/09/1977 to 15/10/1977

Ran via Kew East Jn, Clapham Junction, Nunhead, Bromley South, Maidstone East, Ashford (1603-1613).

5O43 1645 (SO) Folkestone West to Margate - Arr. 1751

Headcode C8

Operated until 04/06/1977 also 03/09/1977 to 15/10/1977

Ran via Deal.

2 hours ago, KeithHC said:

When I did parcel deliveries for BR in the late 70’s I was employed by NCL on contract to BR.

 

Keith

Unfortunately when NCL were hived off they took over all of BR's C&D road parcels fleet and their drivers, BR were then required to hire them back from NCL which aided cost control and service delivery no end.  Whilst this may have worked reasonably well on the ground at smaller parcels concentration depots like Redhill, it was a nightmare at big PCD's  like Bricklayers Arms where NCL understandably gave priority to their own business in the event of a shortage of drivers or serviceable vehicles.  BR could hire in third party resources in the event of severe disruption, but again this had to be done via NCL at (I suspect) enhanced rates.

Station signalling panel at Oberwil im Simmental on the BLS Branch from Spiez to Zweisimmen, seen from a passing train on 25/04/1984.

14 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Very useful to know - thanks. That explains a lot!! By the early 80's, I don't think anyone locally had heard of the formal change of name. "Full Load" is a strange name for that part of the depot, where it was primarily parcels! But the area between the footbridge and the main line was definitely for full loads, for a while anyway.

At the risk of going way off topic, I think the term Full Loads came about at the time when Sundries traffic (ie. less than Full Loads) was hived off to National Carriers (NCL).  I have seen demarcation plans showing the division of certain goods depots such as Chatham into the areas to be passed to NCL and areas to be retained by the Board with the latter termed Full Load Depots.  As far as the SED were concerned I think this term was applied to the goods depots at Ashford, Tonbridge and Rochester, although it would seem that staff on the ground may well have continued to use the historic location names.

After a bit more digging, the Sectional Appendix for November 1968 refers to the area either side of Blue Boar Lane as 'Chatham Goods Sidings', I also have an undated plan which shows the goods shed as 'Chatham Goods Depot'.  However I also have what appears to be a more recent plan headed 'Rochester Full Load Depot' showing land and siding usage within the depot during the period that NCL occupied the shed, presumably for sundries traffic.  The formal change of name would seem to have occured some time in the late 1970's.

27 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

Just to clarify the Rochester/Chatham confusion... when you say Chatham Goods, do you mean the low-level yard with the increasingly decrepit goods shed that was actually located in Rochester?  As marked on the 1940s map attached:

I think that Mike Storey and I are both referring to the same place, albeit with different names.  When I worked in the Division, Chatham Sdgs (with the main line connection) were to the north of Blue Boar Lane (with footbridge) and Rochester Full Loads (or Freight) Depot was predominently to the south, although I have also heard this referred to as Chatham Goods (possibly an earlier name).

33 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

All true, except that, strictly speaking, NPCCS were handled at Chatham Goods, an extension beyond Rochester Freight Yard. There were no platform height facilities at Rochester Freight, those being only available at Chatham Goods. There may well have been instances of Royal Mail traffic being eventually dealt with at Rochester Freight when Chatham Goods had become somewhat run down, but not when I was an ASM near there, and on call for Rochester and Strood, in the early 80's. I well remember having to deal with a derailment in Chatham Goods one Sunday morning, the train consisting entirely of CCT's and a 33 - a true testament to the state to which the track had been allowed to fall. The degree to which lorries/vans could access the trackside in Rochester Freight to off-load directly was, to say the least, very poor by then.

 

The Kent Rail website has a photo of the mail train standing on the siding on the mainline side of the former goods shed at Rochester Freight (Full Loads) Depot, which is what I was thinking of, see https://www.kentrail.org.uk/rochester_freight_depot_2_2.html  , as at Dover Priory the mailbags were transferred directly from lorry to van so no need for a platform.  Interesting to hear of the derailment involving CCT's as these were the only vans normally permitted to be placed in the Down Sdg at Chatham station with parcels traffic, apparently when stabled the CCT doorways were not obstructed by the platform roof supports and BRUTES could be unloaded/loaded without incident.