HonestTom

I think we could put this another way: don't we all strive for a form of perfection in what we do? Perhaps we aim to produce something that pleases us or perhaps we produce something for public consumption. If it's something for public consumption, then the work's popularity with critics and the public could be said to be a measure of its success. Universal adoration isn't really possible, but that's okay - it means there's always something more to work towards. I think it only becomes a problem in the case of people who want the praise without putting the work in to get it - they'll get frustrated and either give up or become bitter that the world doesn't recognise their minimal efforts as brilliance.

Again, by your own admission, you made your judgement based on nothing more than a feeling, and you have both admitted and demonstrated a lack of knowledge of YouTube. You may not like the word, but that is prejudice by definition. I'm certainly not seeing overwhelming support. Posters seem to be pretty evenly divided. I don't know what Minecraft has to do with model railways. I don't seek universal adoration, as will be clear from posts on this thread in which I admit both to flaws in my own work and to flaws with YouTube. I'm not aware of anyone else in this thread who seeks such adoration. I just don't think it's fair that you've decided you don't like me and what I do on the basis of nothing more than an opinion that, by your own admission, is uninformed. You won't even watch the videos we talk about in our defence. I also don't think it's fair that I can't defend my position without my character being called into question. Go ahead.

Then that's fine! The reviews that Sam does aren't for you. As has been pointed out, he makes no pretence of prototypical expertise and does not comment on prototypical accuracy. As I say, it's not like he's spouting a lot of made-up information about the prototype. Print media can do that just as easily. All you need is one respected author to make a mistake and that fact will be reprinted ad nauseam. I was recently researching West Finchley station for one of my dangerous and socially debilitating YouTube videos about the Underground and time after time, I came across the completely wrong assertion that the footbridge there came from Ryhill. A quick image search on the dangerous Internet proves that to be incorrect (it's actually from Notton & Royston, the footbridge at Ryhill looks nothing like the one at West Finchley). Nevertheless, anyone believing in the incorruptible perfection of the editor's desk would have several apparently trustworthy sources asserting an incorrect point. A judgement made without knowledge is the very definition of prejudice.

Oddly enough, while I have been known to watch old TV programmes on YouTube (I'd watch them legit if they were available), I find YouTube documentaries that imitate a television format quite hard to watch. I can't say why that is, whether the documentaries themselves are flawed or I just can't accept that format on that site. Certainly I can't criticise the presentation, writing or production values.

I find the fact that you can see the model in detail and watch it running very useful for deciding whether to buy something, even if I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions. He's showcased models that I like but he hated, and vice versa. I consider him to be, as it were, "part of a balanced diet" of model reviewers. I should also state in the interests of fairness that he's not the only YouTuber who showcases models in detail - there are magazine-affiliated channels that do likewise. One of them had me this close to buying a streamlined Duchess.

I don't know why you took something that was, in context, obviously a criticism of hostile and exclusionary attitudes towards newcomers as an attack on your particular type of modelling.

Oxford brogues?

One might even suggest that it's not in the manufacturers' best interests to chase it. "M'lud, this model locomotive is clearly copied from our own. Notice the visibly wrong taper of the funnel, the way the cylinders stick out too far, the inaccurate safety valve for the era portrayed, all features unique to the model we offer..."

Okay, what did I say that implied it? I am absolutely open to correction here, but I am, again, going to request specifics.

Nice! I enjoyed this - I've often thought I'd like to do something similar (i.e. following a journey from end-to-end). The advances in camera technology kind of freak me out. I remember some years back a friend showing me his new camera that cost him over a thousand pounds, but could take broadcast-quality footage. He said that a lot of film and TV studios had bought them, because they were smaller and cheaper than what they had. And then a few years later, we got smartphones that enable us to take broadcast-quality footage (enable us to, I can't say I hit that goal with my shaky hands). And now the smartphone camera I have that can take broadcast-quality footage is eclipsed by newer models. I mean, there are actual feature films being shot on smartphones, and not just shaky-cam no-budget horror flicks. Makes me wish I was better with technology.

Thank you!

When did I do that? When did I do that? I'm going to ask for specific instances here. I also don't see what "denigrating those who seek high standards" has to do with YouTube. Okay, I'm not saying that one has to watch YouTube to get into railway modelling, just that it provides an accessible means for them to do so. Again, though, by your own admission, your opinion is based on very little firsthand knowledge. What I keep seeing in this thread is, basically, "well I haven't watched much of it, but it's very clear based upon the two videos by an unspecified YouTuber that I did watch that it has nothing whatsoever to offer this hobby." Thanks! Yep, it's at youtube.com/c/jagohazzard. I must admit, there's not been any model railway content recently, but the vast majority of my stuff is rail-related. I've got a video coming out at half past five this afternoon on the history of the abandoned Underground station at Euston, including some shots taken inside. The most recent video at present is a quick thing about Tube closures, which may not be the most interesting. I'll admit I'm not the slickest YouTuber - more an enthusiastic amateur.

Okay. No, or not this one at least. A question was asked about YouTubers. As a YouTuber, I feel qualified to answer that question and, if I may say so, better than people who by their own admission don't actually have any experience or knowledge of YouTube. Several people here have displayed a hostile, prejudiced attitude towards YouTubers based upon nothing, which I find quite rude - it's not like people don't know there are YouTubers reading. Under the circumstances, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to come to my own defence. I have endeavoured to back my points up and, where relevant, provide sources. I have requested that people back their own statements up, and all I've got is non-sequiturs and refusals. But that's like saying the definition of an actor is "someone who develops a drug problem and joins the Church of Scientology." I don't like to resort to appeal to authority, but per the Oxford English Dictionary, the definition of a YouTuber is "a person who uploads, produces, or appears in videos on the video-sharing website YouTube." That's all. I wish I was being paid £100,000 to wear Gucci, but I don't think they do walking boots. I think this is a little unfair. He doesn't know much about the prototype, but he doesn't claim to. He provides some historical context for the models, but he's quite open about the fact that he's not an expert on the prototype, and he doesn't comment on the prototype in his reviews. He will often qualify his statements on livery, detail etc with "I don't know if..." Now, I agree that this makes his reviews of limited use to "serious" modellers. Personally, I am someone who pays attention to prototype accuracy, so his reviews certainly won't be the first ones I look at. But it's not like he's saying "This feature is right and this feature is wrong."

Okay, here’s what I’m getting at. You asked a question. By your own admission, you don’t watch YouTube or have much experience of it. For instance, you seem to think Francis is a YouTuber. You also admit to a negative bias against us. Yet at the same time, you have strong opinions on YouTube and YouTubers. You stereotype us. You view us as being obsessed with numbers. You literally blame us for causing unease in children. I ask you to back a claim up and you refuse to name names. When I explain the work that goes into it or provide reasons why I think it does have a positive impact, you don’t address the point, but accuse me of being “lofty.” I’m trying to be civil here, but can you understand why I’m finding it difficult to assume good faith?

Why did you actually start this thread?

Have you actually watched the video? Note, I'm not asking whether you feel that you need to watch the video, or whether you've seen enough of his other videos, or whether you've heard enough from other people. Just, did you watch the video you're judging? Because he doesn't actually say anything of the sort. As to why, well, it's interactivity, the same as a magazine letters page. I daresay he might find the information useful for producing future videos. Well, he features quite a few LNER locomotives, as demonstrated in that video. So I dare say his viewers could identify several. This is working on the basis that everyone who watches his videos has no other involvement with real or model railways than that. Which is quite an assumption. See, people say things like this and then they wonder why it's so hard to attract young people to the hobby. I see this condescending attitude all over the place. The self-identified "real enthusiasts" and "serious modellers" patronising newcomers and younger enthusiasts, then blaming them when they decide they don't want to get involved in clubs and societies where they're clearly not wanted. If that's the prevailing attitude among "real enthusiasts," then I think we have an answer to the question posed in the thread title. Yes, YouTubers, and social media in general, do contribute positively to the hobby. Because if the "real enthusiasts" don't want new blood, where else are the upcoming hobbyists to go?

Why not? If they're on YouTube, their work is already in the public arena. How many views would they need before they become suitable for criticism? Yes, but I didn't do that in a YouTube video, nor did I say that to the parents in question. I was simply explaining why I think hobbyists in general should be willing to accept those whose interest is apparently superficial. So there is no "us," but at the same time you feel that Francis and Sam are not "us." Why? As Corbs observes above, kids have been wanting to be a musician or a movie star or similar for decades, this is just the latest iteration of that. Most of them will do it, realise it's harder than they thought and quit. Just like those kids who buy a guitar in the hope of becoming a musician. Do you need a forum to do that? Teenagers have been doing stupid things since the dawn of time. Why do you think they made all those creepy public information films in the 70s? Adolescence is just Darwinism put to the test.

I could see Hornby doing the B17 - they've hoovered up some pretty obscure LNER express locos. The Y10 I see as more of a Rapido or Accurascale thing. Since Rapido have already laid claim to the J70 and the W&U coach, it's an obvious one for them. However, I'm particularly looking forward to Ivor the Engine and the green 0-4-0 in M&LRTCoLtd livery inspired by Ivor the Engine.

I'm not saying that people engaging in the hobby aren't finding it fun. I'm saying that he's communicating the fact that it's fun to an outside audience. He's showing young people that yes, you can be into trains, people will not hate you for it, there are people like you out there. In a hobby that's often quite hostile to young people (see also: this thread), we need that kind of encouragement. Can you give some specific examples of railway-related YouTubers doing this? See, I feel like there's no winning condition here. If someone just runs trains, they're superficial. If they try to justify themselves, they're being "incredibly worthy." If they're just having fun, they should be enjoying their hobby without showing people. Would you rather YouTube just ceased to exist? To be honest, this feels like gatekeeping. A sense that if you didn't get into the hobby the right way, if you don't enjoy it the right way, if you don't make a lifetime commitment from the very start, you are not One Of Us. If someone gets into the hobby and decides it's not for them, who cares? It's none of our business how a person chooses to engage. One the other hand, if a hundred people watch a hobbyist on a superficial basis and one of them gets into the hobby on that basis, that can only be a good thing. I often get emails from parents of train-mad kids who watch my videos for the shots of trains, who have no interest in the history or politics I'm talking about in my narration - can't get much more superficial than that. And I reply with my thanks. A kid watching train videos today could be volunteering on their local heritage railway in ten years' time, or looking into a career on the railways. You're literally on a forum where people post their modelling which is spun off from a magazine to which people submit their modelling. People have been "showing off" since the dawn of human intelligence. We wouldn't have cave paintings if it weren't for some neanderthal who had a particularly good buffalo hunt and decided everyone needed to know about it. 1. Sam polls his viewers on their favourite Big Four railway company. 2. The results show the LNER as the favourite. 3. You say that all that demonstrates is that his viewers have heard of the Flying Scotsman. 4. I ask you what your reasoning is. 5. You say that Sam has made up the statistics. I'm not sure what you're arguing here. What do made-up statistics have to do with the Flying Scotsman?

Interesting, what are you basing that on?

Yeah, I think he hits a key point of being a railway enthusiast that a lot of people (including some within the fandom) miss - it's fun. He's a guy doing a thing he likes doing. I think it's more that the Internet has brought people with less mainstream interests together. Before the Internet became mainstream, what was cool and uncool was largely dictated by the media. Being obsessed with trains? Uncool, nerdy, get a life etc. Being obsessed with football? That's just fine, keep watching our sports channel. Now, with the rise of the Internet and social media, people are learning that actually, there's nothing wrong with liking something unusual, and they're not alone in their interests. New communities have arisen for even very obscure interests - I found a site dedicated to phone boxes the other day, for instance. And people are less afraid to dip their toes into geeky interests - I get a lot of comments on my channel from people who don't define themselves as enthusiasts, but regularly watch my videos. Bullying people for being into "nerdy" stuff hasn't declined due to "wokeness," but because it's out of step with the way people think now. I do get the occasional "get a life" comment, but it's invariably from guys who are middle-aged or older. I was honestly quite surprised when I spotted that pattern.

You don't have to show your face - you could use stock footage or even static images to provide the visual component. There are a few writers on YouTube who take that approach.

Lion with a set of LMR coaches would have been great for several eras (if you're not too fussy about Period 1 accuracy), and I'm sure it would have had a much wider appeal than 'The Lady With a Lamp'.

I'm getting the mental image of the shareholders saying, "Nothing for me this year."

Last-minute change, perhaps?