Harlequin

I suggest getting your plans rock-solid and properly thought-through before you build anything!

Hi Philip,

I hope I'm not putting you off. If you can get anywhere close to what you're proposing I think you'll be very happy - any reasonable person would be! So I'm hoping that whatever you do you can get something up and running.

You've clearly done a lot of research into the prototype stations - whereas I'm just commenting on the model design. So you know more about what would best represent the real world stations than I do and you should interpret my comments in that light.

So, having said that:

In my opinion it's best to have a clear distinction between the "stage" and the off-stage areas. It's not good to try to add scenic justification to what are really off-stage technical areas. Off-stage is where the technical magic takes place that makes the on-stage action work realistically and it needs to be plain, efficient and purposeful. In your case, I think the peninsula is the off-stage area and the peripheral boards are the stage. The peninsula is perfect for that off-stage purpose. It's and a great luxury that you are right to try to make best use of it.

If the peninsula is entirely "off-stage" then it's easier for the viewer, "the audience" if you like, to know where to look, it's easier for them to "read" the layout.

Do you really, really want to model an MPD or is it just a way of dressing up an off-stage area? If you really do want an MPD then do it on the main stage, if not then abandon it (and save yourself some work).

The simplest technical way to get two counter-circulating trains, without the need for automation or relays or anything complicated, is to double the track in the bottom right hand corner of the design... This again would save you a lot of work and make running more reliable and arguably more realistic.

Maybe the peninsula could contain just the fiddle yard traverser or turntable fed directly from the triangle feed lines plus some spurs for storing locos. Use locos lifts to move and turn locos (again saving yourself a lot of work). That would allow the peninsula to be a bit shorter so that there're more room in the operating well.

Don't forget to allocate some bench area for rolling stock maintenance and model-making...

Looking forward to hearing more about your plans after SWMBO frees you from you labours!

@Brassey: I'd say that an 8 coach train is a very good compressed representation of what might be a 12 coach train in the real world. In most models everything else is compressed to some degree and a 12 coach train could actually look out of place.

I think I agree with just about everything Harlequin has written, except about a working area under scenery - no need given you've got the traverser.  I would absolutely definitely want to be able to leave two trains circulating while I shunted goods yards or set up the next trains on the traverser - or just watched them go, passing in different places.

 

And I would go further with "less is more" - just one junction station, with one branch line from the junction with one passing station (on the other main board) en-route to the traverser.  I reckon the best place for the MPD would be at the junction.

 

But hey, rule 1 .... and of course I do tend to think in terms of one-man operation.

 

Chris 

Agreed. I'm not suggesting hiding anything too technical or that requires manual attention under scenery - I was really thinking about the triangle feeding the fiddle yard when I wrote that.

Thanks!

Actually I haven't used any templates on that drawing yet. It's all just lines and rectangles and it's drawn at 4mm scale with 610mm grid squares to make it look like 2mm! :-)

To do it properly, I'd have to draw accurate templates for Peco's 2mm scale parts (assuming that's what you'd use) - and draw it at 2mm scale with 305mm grid squares, of course.

I looked at the other stations you listed above and sketched this:

It's a combination version very similar you your sketch. Note the extra reverse into the bay siding (cattle dock behind?)

No back siding because stations with goods sheds didn't seem to have them?

I've shown the relief siding dashed because Long Marton didn't have one and you could include it or omit it depending whether you think you need it or if you think it makes the station too "busy".

BTW: I was looking at early 20th century maps (~1910-1950) to derive this plan.

Edit: (We cross-posted!) I think the spur into the "bay" would still be needed - it served cattle pens on a few of the stations in your list, even when there was not a passenger platform nearby.

BTW2: There is scope to push the platforms and the nearby pointwork further to the right and shorten the station if you want more room for your viaduct!

Hi Philou,

Personally, I think it's a bit "over-worked" now. It's an easy trap to fall into and I've done the same thing many times.

There's a lot packed into the peninsula and I don't understand how you're going to visually separate Dymock from the other stuff going on there. The connections to the traverser feel over complicated.

Technical point: The traverser will need a total slide range of around a metre to connect all the lines to the central feed lines, and maybe more. That might be difficult to engineer because it will have to be able to overhang on both sides. When it is out in one of those overhang positions it might be an annoying restriction to movement around the operating well.

(The amount of space in the operating well has always rather worried me, with the peninsula possibly feeling like an obstruction to easy movement.)

The turntable hanging out into the operating well at the south station is asking for trouble - it will get knocked.

You're so close to having double track circuit the whole way around, it seems odd not to make the final connection.

I would suggest:

• Reduce and maybe reposition the peninsula to make it easier for operators to move around. (Think about the number of operators you might want to accommodate in the operating well.)
• Think about simplifying the peninsula to just handle the fiddle yard traverser, turntable, or whatever.
• Feed the traverser at one end of it's sliding range and allow it to slide in one direction only so that, at full extension, the other end is now connected to the feed lines.
• Maybe hide the triangle that feeds the fiddle yard because I think a compact triangle like that would not be common on the prototype - it's part of the offstage magic.
• Make better use of the large area you've got to create easy inclines (most people don't have that luxury) that bring the tracks up to a level where a scenic area can hide a working/offstage area below.
• Have a double-track circuit so that you can set two trains running at once and watch them pass each other without having to worry about them!

I hope this feedback is useful.

Great video here. Listen to the cheers as the HST pulls into old Okehampton station:

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/new-okehampton-railway-station-daily-1126815

Evidence of actual work on "Okehampton parkway" here:

http://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/article.cfm?id=421698&headline=Okehampton%20rail%20campaigners%20buoyed%20by%20car%20park%20groundwork&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2017

More details including site plans here:

https://okerail.2day.uk/section/OkerailCIC

(But unfortunately, still not high-res downloadable PDF...)

Can you name one or two stations with that kind of arrangement so we can check the details on old-maps or nls maps?

Thanks.

Do you need to compress that much?

I think you could include the back-siding, and run the goods loop and the relief siding parallel to the main lines almost until the tunnel entrance. I think there's room to do that without affecting the lines-in-the-landscape effect too much...???

That would then be a more faithful representation of the station and allow more prototypical operation (e.g. goods shunting on the long goods loop and the back siding without using the running lines).

It looks like goods were unloaded on the bay platform (and bulk goods on the back siding, of course) so think about whether you really want that goods shed...

BTW: Just south of this station on the 1925 map is a fascinating Brick and Tile works and an alabaster quarry with an extensive "tramway". Maybe something to model in a future project!

I think you need to see example designs that are much closer to your intended size. Any 8*4ft OO layout will be informative and there are loads of those around! Search for C J Freezer track plans or try to get hold of one of his books.

I'm not an N gauge expert but since 8*4ft is pretty tight for OO I suggest that 4*2ft might be tight for N gauge. By tight I mean that the curve radius might be (a.) unrealistic subjectively and (b.) problematic for long wheelbase rolling stock.

Both your original and David's modifications look good to me.

I assume the backscene will extend to the very edges of the layout and it might be good to curve it gently along it's length and then more definitely into the sides. That would help make a more "panoramic" scene.

The change of direction after the viaduct is a bit abrupt. If you could ease it out a bit that would look more like the real thing. Maybe even curve the viaduct and curve the platforms - but that would make modelling more difficult.

At the viaduct end the entry to the fiddle yard could be disguised by a cutting and/or some trees instead of a tunnel, perhaps?

How will you access the fiddle yard?

Hi Steve,

Thanks to Mike for reviewing the drawings. As we discussed the drawing will show signal No.4 as a 3ft arm for now so that it reflects the current state of the model.

So here are the final versions with some minor tweaks and also the PDF version, which you can zoom or scale to any size you want without loss of quality. I hope the main fonts used, "Railway" and "Lato", work OK on your machine. (The other font used, "Technical", might not work but it's less important.)

[Click to enlarge]

Sproston 10.pdf

I'm glad you like the drawings - it was fun doing them!

Hi Steve,

How's this?

I understand. OO doesn't give you the continuous circuit that you want.

I imagined sending OO track through an internal wall (clearly not your external basement wall) and back again to get the circuit. On the other side of the wall a very simple fiddle yard, maybe just a couple of passing loops, would be invisible to normal view. It would be housed inside one level of a beautiful built-in display cabinet that showed off the household treasures... Do you think that sort of idea would swing it? :-)

Could you find a way to run a circuit all round your man cave? Some photos would still be useful...

(As someone said above, N gauge could be more expensive than OO because of more scale area to cover - but doing both would be even more expensive!)

Is your house of timber frame construction?

What is behind the 14ft long wall? (And how much leeway would the other members of the household give you in knocking a few holes in walls? ;-)

Could you post some photos of the room? Someone here might be able to see some possibilities you haven't considered yet.

I'm not arguing with anyone, least of all Mike (The StationMaster), just trying to understand why this detail looks a little unusual.

It's clear it has something to do with coaling railmotors and the contributions to the discussion above have added some useful clues to the puzzle, so how about this:

It could be a coaling stage designed to stockpile bagged coal, not loose coal. That would explain why it's so clean (to my eyes anyway) and why it doesn't have taller sides. The lip at the back would be enough to stop sacks sliding off.

When Mr Gubbins said that railmotors were "coaled directly from a wagon" he may have meant that the coal was no longer supplied bagged from Gloucester, but was bagged on site.

So, coal would be bagged from the open wagon door, slung over a shoulder, carried down the track and flipped onto the stage, from where it could easily be moved into the railmotor when it was brought alongside.

I simply put this forward as a possibility - quite happy to be proved wrong, or right, or whatever.

Edit: P.S. I think you can see a tool lying on top of the load at the far end of the nearest wagon. Maybe a pick-axe or sledgehammer for breaking the coal down to baggable size???

I reckon it's not a coaling stage in the usual sense but a way for the fireman to gain access to the coal wagons and coal would be loaded directly from the open wagon door into the RailMotor.

That would explain why it's built on top of the buffer stop and appears to be clean (while the coal in the wagons is shiny).

Note also that the wagons have side doors, not end doors (I think) with one door open on the furthest wagon where coal has most recently been unloaded where it stands.

It would be a huge waste of effort to hoist coal over the end of the wagon onto the stage and from there into the RailMotor.

That is pure speculation just from trying to be logical about what we can see in the photo.

It's very clean. Doesn't look like any coal has been anywhere near it...

My guess it's something to do with giving the fireman easier access to the coal wagons without having to drop to ground level.

Here are the updated drawings.

[Click to enlarge]

I think I've captured all the relevant changes but if not, just let me know, as and when.

Hello Phil, and also thanks to Mike, for everything so far.

 

Would it be possible later in time to produce a second copy of this layout with the same track layout - but with some amendments to the signalling  ( as I mentioned above to Mike ) to allow for the fact that I may need to alter a few signals ( when they become available from Dapol ).

Thanks for all your effort so far, it is much appreciated.

 

Regards

Steve.

Yes, no problem. It's pretty easy to change and I enjoy doing these drawings.

I'll post up a revised Signal Diagram and Levers list referring to the signals as they are currently arranged. When you're happy with that I'll send you a PDF.

And I'll do a further revised set of drawings whenever you've settled on a revised signalling design.

Phil

It's really useful to see this kind of experimentation being carried out.

Is there a 3D printing technology that would produce the fine detail and smooth surfaces of the injection moulded parts we're all familiar with?

Hello Phil - that's looking nice

 

- you obviously have a bit more room to play with than me for your 'edifice' - mine is the Peco 'Manyways' station and stationmasters house.

I like the idea of a 'tearoom'  did that come from Helston by any chance?

I have spent a fair bit of time recently studying 1950/60 photos of the terminus, especially its signalling, such a shame it was all closed. 

 

In case you were wondering, my username on here is a contraction of "Signalling Technician" my previous employment before retiring...

Regards,

(SIGTECH)

Steve..

Thanks!

I haven't found Helston station building yet but I'll certainly go and have a look now.

The idea for the tearoom (or "refreshments room" as I'm now calling it) came from the back-story of Hampton Malstead. After the original broad gauge train shed burned down, severely damaging part of the original station building, the company decided to build a new improved facility. They wanted to provide better accommodation for staff members on site and improve the service for the many visitors who passed through the station.

It's really interesting trying to put together a building in a Victorian style compared to a contemporary building. Thick walls, fireplaces and chimneys everywhere, little or no internal sanitation... :-)

How about: 2ft deep scenic board, 2ft 6in well (same width as a normal doorway), 18in fiddle yard board.

2ft wide end boards and the whole thing either 8ft long, or better 10ft long if you can do it.

Clockwork? Luxury!

When I were a lad our trains were made of wood and we had to push them ourselves!

Hi Steve,

Given what Mike has said above, please let me know what changes you'd like to make to the diagram. Obviously it partly depends on whether you want to change your model or have the diagram reflect the model as-is.

Regarding signal 20 being pushed back alongside discs 16 & 17: Maybe you could suspend a short arm or a centre-pivoted arm under the bay platform canopy.

In the meantime, here's a new, much more expressive layout for the levers list:

[Click to enlarge]