Murican

This is probably the crux of my idea: what precedent would have been set if the Hughes 2-10-0 and GCR Baldwin 2-10-2, then later Fowler's Pacific and Mikado cousins were indeed built.

The point about the whole Race To The North is valid. Though to be fair I had imagined mechanical stoking would show up on these larger engines, even though I am aware hand-firing was more common in real life. In terms of giving my alternate timeline more plausibility, would it be possible to have some degree of loading gauge or track weight increases in certain parts of the UK rail network? Perhaps after WWI and into the 1920s? FWIW, the point of my idea for an earlier precedent for larger locomotives was formed on the idea of several large engines that were proposed indeed being built. On that note, the alternatehistory stuff I created my British steam ideas for does also involve American rail tech as well. Regardless, I do appreciate how you were more civil in your critiques. .

I know I said this before but to be fair I did stick with locomotives that were actually proposed for a reason.

That is true... Again though, I did try and work around this by mainly restricting myself to locomotives that were actually proposed (at least in pre-grouping era stuff).

That's one reason I thought of having the Royal Scots be built anyway. Not to mention the proposed LMS Garratt. And in all fairness, I did mostly try and limit myself to designs that were actually proposed in real life aside from a few exceptions.

As is, I thought of removing the Caledonian 2-10-2 from my list. Perhaps just replacing it with a 2-8-0 if anything.

It's just imaginary JFC. I don't see the point in resorting to that kind of commentary.

I've decided to go ahead and make some changes to my ideas for bigger British steam. Being American, it's natural some US influence will show up in some places. The first major change ("point of departure" for alternate history enthusiasts) is that bulk goods wagons do become larger in size for many of the bigger collieries during the 1900s. This in turn means a need for larger locomotives to handle these larger trucks which aren't fitted with continuous brakes yet. Further changes happen later on due to an alternate version of the Middle East's political situation leading to a 1953 oil crisis, which also forces BR to make better choices. Pre-Grouping England and Wales The LNWR builds the proposed 899 class of 4-8-4Ts for use on shutning and short-distance trains. However, their coal capacity becomes a liability and so many (but not all) are converted into 4-8-0 tender engines. This in turn means the proposed Lemon 4-8-0s for the LMS are never drawn up, Hughes' 2-10-0 for the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway is a success. Hauling heavy freights over tough grades across the network. This sets the precedent for bigger locomotives in the years that follow on all of the UK's major railways. The Great Central Railway approves John G. Robinson's proposal for a Baldwin-built 2-10-2, with the difference being that the locomotive is a simple design as opposed to a compound, and uses Walscherts valve gear. The success of both these American engines and the Hughes 2-10-0 leads to the GCR commisionning another class of 2-10-2s from Beyer Peacock in Manchester: these being built with a similar boiler design to the L&YR engine. Hughes also builts a fleet of 2-6-0 and 4-8-0 locomotives for mixed-traffic work as WW1 winds down. Pre-Grouping Scotland McIntosh's Atlantic types are both built for express services on the Caledonian from Carlisle to Glasgow, beginning service in 1904. As the WCML trains become heavier, McIntosh is given the greenlight to construct a Caledonian Pacific class, which relieves the burden of the heavy WCML expresses. Drummond's proposed 4-6-0 for the GSWR is built thanks to its strength and tractive effort. Another 4-6-0 that is built would be Reid's proposed NBR 4-6-0s, which were built thanks to the success of the Caldeonian 903 class, and an 0-8-0 class is also built for mineral traffic. Caledonian 400 Class Moguls are built or mixed-traffic work. LMS The first major change is that Fowler is allowed to built his four-cylinder compound Pacific and Mikado classes for use on the WCML, with the Pacifics being named after Explorers. These locomotives are solid, but flawed performers until William Stanier converts them to simple machines, equips them with Belpaire-equipped boilers, and larger four-axle tenders. This dramatically improves the performance of both the Pacifics and Mikados. In spite of the LMS Explorers, the Royal Scot 4-6-0s are built regardless to serve shorter-distance trains on the Midland Main Line as well as the Settle - Carlisle route. Following the Princess Royals, Stanier decides that the Explorers mean there are plenty of Pacifics running across the LMS. As such, he designs his famous Coronation class as 4-6-4 Baltics which use the same tenders as his rebuilds of the Hughes engines. Stanier also chooses to go beast mode and introduces a class of 4-8-4s for use on long-distance freight over the WCML. The proposed 4-6-2+2-6-4 Garratt is built at Beyer Peacock, and mostly works on the Midland Main Line due to its lighter loading gauge. It's eventually preserved at the NRM and restored to operation. Stanier's Black Five and 8F locomotives end up serving as the main workhorses of the Midland Main Line. With the addition of Jubilee and Royal Scot 4-6-0s on passenger trains. LNER The LNER pressures Gresley to develop a Standardization program which he appoints Edward Thompson on. It's through this program that locomotives like the Thompson B1, Thompson O1, Thompson K1, and Thompson L1 still come about. Gresley builds his P3 tank for freight traffic and shunting on various branch lines in the north of England and in Scotland. As well as for service on various secondary routes. Gresley builds six of his I1 Class 4-8-2s for expresses on the WCML. These locomotives prove to be major successes thanks to the lessons learned from the P2 Mikados. Thompson's plans to rebuild the P2 Mikadoes is nixed when Gresley is replaced by Peppercorn in 1939, shortly after the I1's completion. However, their use is ultimately proven to be rare. In addition to the Peppercorn A2 Pacifics, we also see some semi-streamlined Peppercorn I1 Mountains for use on the ECML. Southern For much of the 1920s, the only change from real-life is that Richard Maunsell is allowed to build his proposed S16 4-8-0 for use on heavy freight traffic. Maunsell also gets to build his 2-8-0T for shunting duties. Years later, Bulleid takes his original draft for the Q1 Pacific. He turns it into a 4-8-0, equips it with Walscherts valve gear, and puts it to work as a freight locomotive to supplement the Maunsell S16. Bulleid is allowed to build his proposed "Battleship" class of Mikadoes for use on mixed-traffic services. They become especially popular for the Pines Express thanks to being able to handle the S&DJR grades without help (most of the time, anyway). The Merchant Navy class is built as the originally proposed Mountains based off the success of the LNER Mountains. Bulleid builds a 4-6-4T for use on shorter-distance services. Particularly suburban services on non-electrified lines. GWR At first, the only major change is the inclusion of Collet's proposed 2-10-2 tank, which are yet another locomotive used on the South Wales coal network. Collett proposes a Mikado class locomotive to augment the Night Owls on heavy goods traffic. However, this is ultimately not followed up on. See the WD/USATC section below to learn more. Hawksworth's tenure as CME is where the majority of changes take place. The first one is construction of a 88XX 4-4-0 used to replace many of the oldest locomotives like the Dukedogs. The Cathedral class of Pacifics are built in 1947. They are successful on the express passenger trains, but not neccessarily every GWR enthusiast's cup of tea. With some seeing them, for better or for worse, as Swindonized Princess Royals. War Department/USATC WD 2-8-0s become fairly common for freight traffic on the LNER and GWR, the latter due to their largely antiquated heavy freight fleet becoming a liability and the crews being used to 2-8-0s. The 2-10-0 variants are common on the Scottish Region like they were in real life. A third USATC locomotive is built to serve alongside the S160 Consolidation and S200 Mikado. This locomotive is the S240 class of 2-10-2 locomotives, based on this art. Some locomotives of all three classes are kept by BR and numbered in the 90XXX series alongside WD locomotives. The majority of these locomotives end up being S160s allocated to the Western Region, a handful S200s being sent to the NE region for heavy coal trains, and all of the S240 locomotives being sent overseas to Continental Europe. British Railways Inspired by the 8F and GWR freight engines, a Standard 8 Consolidation sees construction with numbers in the 91XXX range. However, only 116 are built in order to make way for the 9F Decapod on heavy freight work. Despite their comparatively low numbers, the Standard 8 Consolidations successfully see service on the Western, Eastern, and Southern Regions due to their lighter weight and shorter wheelbase making them preferable to the 9Fs. Riddles decides to replace the large fleet of GWR Coal Tanks on The Western Region with a class of Standard 8 Tanks, 2-8-4Ts which use elements of the Standard 8 2-8-0 and the Standard 4 Tanks. Standard 8 Tanks prove to be successful on the Western Region, and several more are allocated to the Southern Region and secondary/branch lines across various other regions. Among the new Standard range steam engines is the construction of several additional Standard 8 Pacifics. These locomotives are called the "Super Brittanias" and fitted with Bulleid-Firth drive wheels. Famously though, these locomotives would end up becoming painted different liveries based on which region they were allocated to: MR Crimson Red for The Midland Region, LBSC Stroudley Yellow for the Southern Region, GWR Brunswick Green for the Western Region, GER Ultramarine for the Eastern Region, LNER Apple Green for the North Eastern Region, and NBR Bronze Green for the Scottish Region. The Middle Eastern oil crisis of this realty gives Riddles a chance to create two final classes of BR Standards. These two are the Standard 9 Mountain, meant for express passenger and freight, and the 10F 2-10-2 for heavy freight. Both locomotives have Caprotti valve gear, Bulleid-Firth drivers, are three-cylinder designs, and use the four-axle BR4 tenders. This especially becomes valuable as BR begins to retool its non-mineral freight traffic. The Standard 9 Mountains are numbered in the 74XXX range, and have the underpinings of the Standard 8 Pacifics with elements of the LNER and Southern Mountain types. Known as "Ultra Britannias", these locomotives are also commonly used on the WCML, ECML, and Southern main lines for their express passenger and express freight trains. Unfortunately, their length and size does restrict their use on the Western and Scottish Regions. The 10Fs are based on the 9Fs, with elements of the planned Mikado. These locomotives prove to be new staples of heavy freight on the Midland, North Eastern, Scottish, and Eastern regions. Much like with the Standard 9 Mountains however, these locomotives prove less well suited to the Western Region and Southern Region.

Maybe the locomotives could have a flangeless center well and shorter flanges on a few of the other wheels? That's what BR did with the real-life 9F, after all. As for the apparent GCR design, I could see it as being something the railway uses if the Baldwin 2-10-2s are successful and if the L&YR 2-10-0 inspires them enough. What difference would it make if the Caledonian engine was built as a Mikado instead? I can see steam for the boiler being easier to maintain?

I mean, I did figure that there would likely be some passenger service reintroduced later on, but most of the traffic would still be freight.

Also returning to fictional steam engine types: I saw pictures for proposed Caledonian and Great Central 2-10-2s. The GCR ones were a different design from the proposed Baldwin locomotive. But does anyone know if either 2-10-2 were real proposals?

What about under BR? What could have been done to at least make the Great Central Mainline still viable? Personally I imagined the idea of the route being used as Britain's first freight-only main line starting in the 1960s. Enabling the WCML and Midland Mainline to avoid having long-distance freight clog their systems.

Well, what could have helped the GCR under the LNER after that then?

I take it their partnership is party why the GCR became part of the LNER? If so, what could have been done to make the GCR less of a burden?

Well, let's suppose for the sake of the locomotive ideas that the GCR does get a better connection to south of London. Say maybe (for the sake of giving it to the SECR for the Dover connection), a link at London Victoria? When floating this idea, my main focus was locomotive design. Assuming Maunsell stays in charge, I could see him not only build those S16 4-8-0s, but also build his Schools class as Atlantics and Lord Nelson class as Pacifics. Furthermore, if we go off my past LNER ideas, I could see Bulleid build some of his Pacifics as Mikados (maybe the Battle of Britain class) or Mountains (the Merchant Navies, like he wanted).

Here's a musing I thought about in recent times. What if the Great Central Railway was grouped into the Southern Railway. I thought of it because how in real life the ambition was to link the GCR to further rail connections in Continental Europe. As such I couldn't help but wonder how it could have gotten if that link to the Continent was better realized with a link at least as far as the south coast. I could also see Maunsell (or maybe John G. Robinson) design bigger locomotives. And same with Bulleid. Perhaps in such a TL, we could see something like Robinson's proposed GCR Pacific, or maybe Maunsell's S16 4-8-0s for use on the coal traffic up north. Or even Bulleid being allowed to design his Merchant Navies as the 4-8-2s he wanted (which in such a reality could be help by having the LNER I1 and Peppercorn I2s built).

I know it's been a while, but here's a new idea of mine. The Santa Fe 4116 Class 2-8-4s Built as one of the Big Four of santa Fe steam designs in 1930, alongside the streamlined 3460 Hudsons, 3765 Northerns, and 5001 Texas types. As they were meant for Midwest traffic, they burned coal at first but were converted to oil in the 1940s.

To be fair, I did have the idea of giving these fictional Atlantics Walscherts instead.

Possibly as far as Aberdeen? Admittedly in addition to filling the 74XXX numbering, I also had the idea that Riddles would make them 3 cylinder engines as a test bed for ideas that evolve into my ideas for a Standard 9MT Mountain, which happens in part due to Gresley, Peppercorn, and Bulleid managing to built Mountains.

I honestly agree. I thought of the 74XXX numbering being used by BR Standard 5 Atlantics that'd be used mainly in the Scottish Region due to the alternate oil crisis.

Another question for my planned revisions of my BR Standard steam ideas. What are some proposed ideas for 6-coupled tender locomotives? Like 2-6-2s, 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s? Part of it was that I just wanted inspiration for when I post my ideas to alternatehistory.com as well.

Before I post more, I just was wondering if rmweb would ever be able to restore the pictures from before the upgrade. I'm just checking as a way to let you all know that I'm still here. Right now I'm brainstorming some ideas for rewriting my British steam ideas. Plus maybe some additional ideas for alternate locomotives here in the states.

Understood. Thanks for the input. That said though, what would have been a good evolution for GWR traction from the Night Owl? I know that Colliet built the 2884s, but those were more derived from the 2800s.

I was thinking lately about the LNER P1 Mikados. Was there ever a way there could have been a viable Mikado goods counterpart to the A3 Pacifics? Say such a thing happened, would the LMS also try Mikados for important fast freights? I personally am sticking to the idea of a Gresly 4-8-0, but I thought it was worth discussing anyway.

Oddly enough, I had previously thought of the idea for the Southern Railway (the American one) to use Garratts in their Rathole Division from Danville, Kentucky to Oakdale, Tennessee. In steam days that line was hard to upgrade and suffered from widning tunnels and light track - perfect stomping grounds for a Garratt.