009 micro modeller

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Anything to do with the Snailbeach Railway or the Glyn Valley Tramway?

 

CJI.

The GVT did have a canal interchange and it’s in the right area. To me that seems more likely than the Snailbeach (I can’t remember if that linked to any canals).

36 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Rokuhan is much cheaper than Marklin and just as good, the Japanese do seem to be able to produce stuff cheaper.

Agreed, there just doesn’t seem to be as much of a range. To get back on topic, in 1:120 Z equipment could be used to represent 2’ 6” gauge.

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

And I was looking at Z Scale on a German retailer the other day and pretty much everything seemed to be about the same price as TT:120 and that's almost half the size.

To be fair though, Z has always been expensive, still mainly Marklin and you pay for the miniaturisation. T gauge for instance is even smaller but seems generally to be  cheaper than Z.

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

The reason the GCR and SVR needed to do onerous paperwork is because they're public railways with old fashioned fencing (designed to keep animals, not people, out), plus path and road crossings on any of which, the public might intrude during high(er) speed operations.  When they are doing those operations, I would put money on every path crossing being manned (that's even if they have got temporary closure orders).  Old Dalby meanwhile, is an industrial site effectively sealed off from the public, who as I suggested earlier, could be catered for in specific, segregated locations within the boundaries of the site and under plenty of supervision.

Apologies, I should never have mentioned Old Dalby (at least I think it was me that mentioned it)…

If we’re now talking about an event where people can watch and photograph the train then that might be easier to arrange, but will it have the same appeal if they can’t actually ride it?

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

DCC perhaps?

Actually it might be that. I didn’t check. But would it really add that much on?

Edit: the interesting point is that I’d probably expect that from Hornby in 00, but I thought with TT they are generally going for a lower price point. It was an A3 if that makes any difference. I’m too committed to 009 projects at the moment but am still tempted to have a go in TT at some stage.

I saw a Hornby TT loco today at Ally Pally with a price label over £200. This seems a lot higher than what they were selling them for directly so is it just the dealer’s mark-up (or even a mislabelling)?

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

Not using mechanical things because they might break is neither good custodianship nor useful nor interesting

This seems a bit disingenuous - some objects (locos in this case) are a more valuable historical record in their conserved, static form than if they were restored to working order (but some are better off restored - it’s not one size fits all). As an extreme example, the original Rocket is considered, apparently completely uncontroversially, to be too fragile and too significant to restore to working order, but there are replicas so it doesn’t need to be. Meanwhile, at Statfold Barn I could see both original and new-build quarry Hunslets running, which is great, but also upstairs in the roundhouse building are some that are static and conserved, still pretty much in the condition they left the quarry; the latter are also fascinating as they’re effectively a time capsule. It is good that we are able to experience both. I’m not sure the comparison with zoos and stuffed animals really applies here.

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

Having museums crammed full of people with two+ degrees and a masters at every shiny display case is what leads to a loss of practical experience and if anything, deters development of STEM in schools. 

Of course we should have a variety of different backgrounds and skills in museums, and I lament the amount of credentialism in the sector, but why wouldn’t academia be relevant? It’s a way of doing research into museum subjects and is especially needed in museums that are often visited by researchers or higher education groups. Also it seems to be increasingly the case that people working in museums have to have a degree or two and work their way up (rather than just one or the other, as in some other sectors), which, while not always a good thing, does mean that people have plenty of practical experience as well.

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

I went to Dinorwic and climbed disused incline planes and slag heaps to sit on rusty old wagons

I’ve enjoyed exploring the remains of Dinorwic over the years - probably explains my interest in both narrow gauge railways, and heritage more generally.

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

I hated history.  They took all the interesting stuff and ignored it to talk about medieval cooking and dress. 

Isn’t this just your personal view of what you find interesting? Besides which, if it relates to studying history at school I’m not sure how relevant it is to museums.

7 hours ago, daveyb said:

I don't want my Museum to be educational - that's a school job - I want it to remind me of the past and illustrate the dull stuff I was force to listen to, to write in a book and never touch again.

Again though, a bit of a narrow view of what ‘educational’ can mean. And museum education is different from school anyway - the whole point is exactly as you say, to bring it to life and actually see real artefacts and places rather than just reading a rather dry paragraph about them in a textbook (one of my favourite things I’ve done while working in museums is running object handling sessions). It reminds me of that piece of “research” (picked up as a newspaper article) from a few years ago showing that ‘museum visits do not improve GCSE results’, as if that was the main point (though it’s possible they may have been more focused on individual visits, rather than school trips). There was a response to it. And play-based learning is starting to become a thing in museums, which looks very different from what is typically thought of as ‘education’.

8 hours ago, daveyb said:

There is a Science Museum video on You Tube showing how they moved a tram from a hanger to the new 'CHE storage facility' (another, newer, hanger this time with air con).  They moved a tram about a mile across and airfield and bang on about how much painstaking planning was involved.  First part of the day of the move, they couldn't open the hanger door because nobody thought to check the runners or guides!  The boys from Alleley's just stood there shaking their heads!  At the height of last summer I was arranging the move 25000 tonnes of gravel a day past 120 tonne machines on low loaders.  On public roads.  Every day.  For two months.  The Science Museum looked a trifle daft in my opinion - be practical and get on with it!  Very little need for academia there.

The objects involved will probably have a conservation plan, will need to completely avoid being damaged, and won’t necessarily have been moved for ages. It’s a bit different from moving gravel. And I get the impression that it’s hyped up a little in those kinds of videos to try and make it entertaining for more people. But based on the training that I’ve done around moving, handling and repacking handling objects (which are separate from the ‘proper’ collection anyway, and where there is an acceptance that they might get damaged during the session), I can imagine that similar considerations would lead to a fairly complex process for moving large objects.

8 hours ago, daveyb said:

We have two museums quite near me that hire out their indoor display areas for functions such as weddings and staff Xmas parties.  They push the exhibits to the sides, lay the room with tables and hold the function.  Up to about 500 people.   It's how they pay the bills. These museums have moved complete buildings hundreds of kilometers to display typical life over the last century.  They have re-placed them on new foundations, subtly re-wired them and now they provide a living example of local provincial life from the last 150 years that works!  The ice cream is sold in the general store that is made locally.  The sweet shop makes the sweets.  The grain elevator has grain in it and stores and distributes 8 different types of grain into rail cars from a 1955 Ford 5 ton truck that delivers it.  The train rides circulate around the site, and in the evening they do a dinner train.  That's a museum!  And I know there museums like that in Britain, I've been to some of them (Blist's Hill, Black Country, Beamish, Amberley, etc).

They are ‘living museums’, a different way of making a museum with both advantages and disadvantages compared to more “conventional” museums. I think there’s room for both. Another one that I like is the Chiltern Open Air Museum.

8 hours ago, daveyb said:

If you want better STEM in school, stop some of the rubbish that clouds the curricula and get back to basics - an entirely different topic. 

I don’t think museums are really in a position to particularly influence the National Curriculum (though there is obviously a need to link to it to provide something that works for visiting school groups). But in the primary curriculum at least, some parts are quite broadly defined and some schools have actually chosen the specific topics studied to allow them to use what is available in local museums. The STEM focus at the NRM comes partly from it being a Science Museum Group site; it might be good to retain a bit of social history as well.

39 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

It's the "carrying fare paying passengers" bit which would pique their interest, I've no idea how that would work! 

That’s what I thought - surely it wouldn’t be allowed if the stock used is only normally approved for operation at much lower speeds? Regardless of the speed the locos were originally designed for I thought the more relevant aspect would be the current maintenance/inspection regime?

To clarify, do you pay to use the overhead wires/conductor rails at Old Dalby, thus making electric traction more expensive, or are we just assuming that a steam or diesel operation would generate more interest from potential visitors and therefore more income?

On social media (it’s the Narrow Gauge Enthusiasts Group on Facebook but not sure I can post screenshots here as they’re not my photos) some photos have appeared showing a new display area/demonstration line being constructed a short distance away from the old stables, replacing the previous one in the courtyard (and looking like it will be similar, i.e. a set of sidings for shunting demonstrations rather than a single, longer line). It’s potentially a bit concerning that it’s less sheltered, although to be fair I’d imagine the stuff displayed outside will mainly be the wagons that were previously outside in the courtyard anyway (others have said similar in comments on the post mentioned). I can’t quite work out the logistics of how visitors move around and experience the display as a whole, given the distance to the stables where Charles will presumably stay (unless they’re constructing a new display building for it as well - but that seems a bit unlikely). The Ruston diesel seems to still be on site - was this ever stored under cover?

3 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

It also doesn't let you do what I did last time I was there, and travel from Pickering to Grosmont for less than the full line fare. The trains to and from Grosmont were a lot less full than the ones heading to Whitby. 

That’s what I found when I went there a few years ago (and also that the journey fare at that time to Whitby was disproportionately more expensive than Pickering to Grosmont - perhaps understandable though given the costs associated with running on NR to Whitby).

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

its not unsimilar to Merlin entertainment style days out

Do they (or their subsidiary) own Snowdon Mountain Railway these days?

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Pickering to Whitby is a full day out. Its too long… its minimum 5 hours.

I generally agree with that. I think a lot of lines may have lost sight of this in a way. If there are other things to do along the way, or on return to the main site (museums, miniature railways adjacent to the big one, walking routes accessible by train, play areas for children and so on) then people probably will stay on site for 4 to 5 hours (as they already do at other museums and tourist attractions), but it works a lot better (especially for families) because the day is broken up into different activities rather than essentially being on the train for the whole time.

That said, I thought two of the reasons to extend to Whitby were to give the NYMR better access to the Whitby tourist market, and to provide a way for people from the area around York to get to Whitby more easily, thus also tapping into that market (which would also explain the very busy and very early departures from Pickering on some days). Also I like a trip on the Moors partly due to the scenery, which I think works in its favour (I suspect I’m not the only one, and the similarly long and scenic Welsh Highland also benefits from this).

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Off at a wild tangent, but IMO one of the most interesting and atmospheric NT houses is Chastleton, which is (a) preserved in “as acquired” condition, rather than restored,

That sounds interesting (and on the subject of wild tangents, I feel like that ship has probably already sailed on this thread). There’s probably a school of thought that says you should have different rooms restored to represent different periods,* but I tend to think it’s not worth removing the original material that doesn’t fit in with the chosen period to get that, and that it’s more interesting to see the different layers of history.

*Obvious comparison with heritage railways that have different stations restored to represent different periods. The difference there though is that it’s operational rather than completely conserved, and in many cases they started with not much left and had to rebuild the stations from the ground up, so could furnish and paint them however they liked.

2 hours ago, Ben B said:

Personally I assumed that the courtyard and much of the stable block at Penrhyn Castle will probably end up as an expanded cafe/retail operation; it occurred to me last time I was there (as an ex-NT Catering employee) that, with a bigger focus on commercial and retail, it would make more sense to have it as an eatery.  There seemed to be a certain amount of conflict between the spreading tables and the inconveniently large 2ft gauge shunting-layout train set in the middle...  Not saying it's the sort of thing I like to see, more what I expect to see happen.  But if it helps the places stay open in these difficult times, I can't really knock an increased attention on retail/catering. 

Are we sure that the Ruston diesel doesn’t have any links to Penrhyn? I know Dinorwic used a few diesels on their quarry lines in the last few years of operation (possibly after closure of the Padarn line actually, but that had its own older Hardy petrol loco) but wasn’t sure about their competitors over in Bethesda. I’ve always thought the demonstration line at the castle would make a good subject for a micro layout, as it’s literally a shunting puzzle in 1:1 scale, in a castle. I must admit though that I haven’t actually seen it operating and it seems an oddly cramped setting for it (though presumably they can’t have a demonstration line outside the castle walls even if they wanted to, as I think the parkland itself is listed). Some of the ex-Penrhyn wagons in the courtyard may be better off inside and under cover anyway - perhaps they will be as part of the new display? It would be a shame though to lose the shunting demonstration line, but on the other hand I don’t know how much use it gets currently. I’m mainly interested in the diesel loco as it seems to have been missed from most of the discussion on where the locos are moving to etc. Presumably the demonstration line is around 2’ gauge and not the unusual 1’ 10 3/4” originally used by Dinorwic and Penrhyn?

3 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

So it isn't apolitical, right?

Perhaps not, though really, nothing truly is. The point though is that there’s a reactionary section of the media, and perhaps the public, who seem to get unreasonably outraged at any museum interpretation or historical narrative that isn’t mindlessly celebratory, nationalistic, and a bit simplistic. This sort of discourse is ripe to be co-opted for more overtly political ends by certain politicians and public figures, sometimes threatening the editorial independence of heritage organisations and, arguably, the principle of ‘arm’s length’ organisations.

3 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

This is assuming that there is a definition of "the purpose of museums" that everyone agrees on. I don't think there is.

Indeed, and I don’t think there is either. The issue I have with some of the more hysterical attempts at “journalism” on this subject is that they don’t seem to want to actually engage in any debate on said definition, or understand why such a debate might exist. I get a similar impression from reading some of the articles opposing the reinterpretation of country houses, research into colonial links and so on - when you get to the root of it, some of this opposition just seems to be rejecting any kind of new research that complicates or challenges previous narratives, even on subjects that aren’t seen as very controversial. Historians have always ‘rewritten history’ in some way or other, and to be honest I find it quite sad that anyone who claims to care about a historic site would not wish to see it researched, explored and written about from the widest range of possible angles.

Clandon Park is possibly relevant here (but bear with me) - the National Trust wanted to conserve it in its damaged state, preserving what was left of the original material and showing the underlying construction of the house. The Restore Trust wanted to try and restore it as far as possible to its condition before the fire. Perhaps not one of their more headline-grabbing or topical moments (unlike their opposition to the Colonial Countryside project, for instance), and not an especially unreasonable position to take (Uppark was restored, after all), but for me the symbolism of the Restore Trust’s take on this is interesting. Not wanting to show how (or by whom?) the country house was constructed, papering over the history and making it look nice, and prioritising giving visitors what they’ve come to expect over the conservation of the remaining original material - only in a more literal sense than usual.

45 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

If you asked the writers of the "Addressing the Past" report which kicked off a lot of the debate, I'm sure they'd say that their research is relevant today...

Where did I say the research wasn’t relevant today? The point being made is clearly about (usually right-wing) tabloid “journalists” who don’t really seem to understand the purpose of museums, or how academic historical research works.

10 hours ago, ianmianmianm said:

 

I don't know how easy the chassis would be to do..... to be able to stay true to protoype to, if you were motorising it, but the narrow-gaugeness of it allows more space into the body I suppose.

 

I would myself veer toward the "inspired-by" option as otherwise it may be so frustrating to try and keep true, that you might never get it done.  Also going freelance allows for modelling of another train and you then get to come up with some crazy concoctions for that.

 

Scenic break wise, some trees might well do it - not just at the actual exit point, but also strategically in the foreground. Ive also previously used a cluster of trees but with a piece of black card placed within the cluster to hide all light or visibility coming through, which becomes completely unnoticeable.

 

And with there being so much 1:64 scale road vehicles available (if you went to Sn3 1/2) there might be a suitable road vehicle that could do the job, if you wanted to put it in an odd position then model the vehicle as broken down or burnt out perhaps??? This could be a good view blocker if repainted https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/386698101016?epid=26062464881&itmmeta=01HRZFX1WTTR803PNR2816HBHY&hash=item5a0900c118:g:C6sAAOSwjtlktXZv&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4FAsU7Ls7ftt3lXSNY3Dib7DVr7jSyUrSWQCtYyCrExAt%2FT7TZa70f39xn%2B1wMSG06avN3HlgCpDjY5DSBep0zVWqqXe0dmjp8YouPUSHy4Cw4qEW7rA5jdnrmrB4N8OU%2F25QX3G8TH5aQRzjQo4M3IJ1aYNvH8pY0MLmlQfF%2Fd8AWfxBUqdvofYv1u7tPlHa4l%2FawAOtzhzU%2Bc4eCuuU189i8XOTHyUhj5vQiAFJSNBbHs%2F3aDc7oISCadppOJytQYbrIehYMzgHx1qP2wxRqIbJ31PvC4CCV3BstJ4EU9m|tkp%3ABk9SR_Ke9O_HYw for example.

 

 

Having already bought the Bachmann Wickham trolley I am tempted to go with standard gauge 00 (or possibly H0, though I suspect for the purposes of this sort of thing the distinction won’t be hugely relevant, and it’s wrong for the Wickham). In 00 especially it can sort of sit half way between 3’ 6” and standard gauge, which actually works quite well (I’ve seen a UK tram layout that uses 00 in the same way). S is an interesting idea and would make 16.5mm accurate for 3’ 6” gauge, but require a lot of rebuilding of the Wickham body. While they’re not visible in the modern pictures and video I’ve seen, I did think an abandoned example of one of the American-style bogie box cars used for the original banana traffic might also make a good scenic break (with a few trees as well, as you say, and in the apparent absence of any suitably tall buildings). I’m sure I can find a suitably cheap and knackered vehicle to start off with (either Triang Transcontinental or something from a US manufacturer). When (if?) my current 009 project is ever finished and I have the time of course…

51 minutes ago, whart57 said:

For freight traffic offering nearly every sort of wagon there is the small stand-alone network in Dutch Flanders. Run by the Dutch NS it connects with the Belgian railways.

How much of this is there, and did it used to be a larger network? In some ways it’s odd that it’s run by NS as elsewhere in Europe there are similar isolated cross-border railways run by the country that the line starts in (I think I’ve seen some on a map on the borders of France, Germany and Luxembourg).

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

I live in the westcountry, so it seems quite extortionate to me, since I would be very unlikely to be back for several years, if at all, given my age. I would have thought that most locals would soon lose interest in regular trips on any steam railway unless they happen to be enthusiasts, who are steadily dying off and largely not being replaced by younger people.

But compare that to a family who live locally (families in my experience being an audience likely to make repeat visits) with 2 adults who pay and 2 children who go free. It’s very expensive the first time but works out relatively well if they go 4 times (as might be the case). The issue is still that the full £99 has to be paid in one go though.

10 hours ago, ianmianmianm said:

That Honduras railway looks immensely modellable. It would lend itself to those Scale Model Scenery wrapping paper box size boards and you could just keep adding more boards onto the end as you built more shacks! Maybe doing it at Standard Gauge to use the Bachmann model although there appear to be every permutation of Wickham trolley HERE: https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace?type=product&q=wickham-trolley to mate to an appropriate chassis. £100 worth of Redutex sheets and some plasticard should be enough to get going.

I have a Bachmann Wickham trolley in yellow, stashed away for just such a project. Reading what you wrote I wonder whether I should actually try and do it as a more accurate model of the Honduran railway rather than a fictionalised version set in a fictional place. From my very basic research I understand that most railways in Honduras (of which this is one of only two remaining operational sections) were either 3’ or 3’ 6” gauge (I’m not sure which it is) and that this one was originally built to carry bananas and/or coconuts but is now a tourist line taking people to a sort of ecological park/nature reserve type place. I don’t think they’re actual Wickhams but probably a US-built equivalent (which Bachmann also makes in H0, if I decide I want a second train). I was going to rebody the motorised open wagon that comes with the Bachmann Wickham with a spare Wickham body, creating something like the 2-car train in the video (maybe with a bit of tarpaulin or enclosed sides to hide the motor). Apart from the track gauge the difficulty I had was finding a suitable scenic break, and the fact that I haven’t been to Honduras to see the prototype - is watching this and other videos enough?

The Scale Model Scenery boards sound ideal, I was actually thinking of going a bit smaller and using one of their cake box size boards, plus an added off-scene stick, which would fit into the picture frame display case I built to exhibit my 009 quarry layout from the original cake box challenge. But it could be extended later with further boards. Because the train is short and small it would be possible to create a good sense of space and ‘journey’ even within a short baseboard length. I sometimes wish we had a heritage/tourist railway a bit like this in the UK, with small Wickham trolleys and similar picking their way along - it surely wouldn’t be that expensive to operate and I’d definitely visit and/or volunteer. I did find a video of a similar rail trolley-based heritage line in the US but can’t remember the name of it now. The bridges on the Honduran line are also very interesting.

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I quite like the idea of a Dutch layout. Set around 1945 with Austerities hauling rakes of coaches from various UK companies. That would cause a problem with those who don't like foreign layouts. Through in an international mix of freight stock, including some of US origin and we satisfy or upset just about everybody.

Bernard

That does sound genuinely interesting. But will you also have to mix British and international scales (e.g. 00/H0), thus annoying other people as well?

2 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

which could theoretically be ameliorated by having one train leave Pickering just after another arrives, but that in turn would necessitate an extra carriage set and also create the problem of people turning straight round without any secondary spend on the station or in the town.

Could you avoid that issue by literally having it leave immediately after the other train arrives, so that it’s not possible to change from one train to the other?

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Would that give them extra capacity to run more trains and provide more seats? Every time I've been on it recently the trains were full to bursting, so adding more capacity would help. 

Doesn’t that also reinforce the argument that the annual tickets as described earlier are a slightly odd way to do the ticketing?

To clarify my earlier points, I don’t actually have a particularly big problem with the annual tickets from the point of view of a potential passenger (with the caveat that it seems to give less value for money if you are unable to make repeat visits - but if you live locally or regularly visit the area, and can get to the NYMR often, it seems like a good deal). From the railway’s point of view they’re basically an extension of the day rover hop-on hop-off tickets that other heritage lines use, only valid for a year rather than a day. But I think these kind of rover tickets tend to work best on lines where the available capacity that can reasonably be provided substantially exceeds the expected number of passengers, and where the train service from any given station is fairly frequent. Given the length and complexity of the NYMR and how full the trains can be I’m not sure either of those currently apply in this case, and if I was them I’d want to be making the best use of the capacity, which probably wouldn’t be using it at no extra cost for people who’ve already ridden. I note that the booking system still requires you to choose an outbound train and to book a time for repeat visits but I don’t quite understand how that helps.

Crich as mentioned above is an interesting counter-example - the operational trams are probably the main, but not the only, reason to visit for most people, but you ride up and down on them on a fairly short line with a frequent service, within the museum site, rather than on a very long, relatively infrequently served line to another attraction, as is more often the case with a typical heritage railway.

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Have those complaining about prices been on a real train recently? Maybe worth trying to buy a ticket for the same distance on a train that isn't part of a local network in a major city (subsidised by the taxpayer) and seeing how much it costs.

That was one of my first thoughts - OK so maybe the ‘price per mile’ is sometimes slightly less on National Rail, but that’s not really the point. If you visit a heritage railway you’re also paying for the experience, it’s a discretionary spend, and part of me thinks that it probably should cost a bit more to visit a heritage railway than to have basic access to public transport (as National Rail is). On the other hand, I see how it could seem a bit much if you aren’t able to make a repeat visit, and I do also think there’s a bit of an issue with using up capacity on people on repeat visits riding for free when it could be sold to new visitors.

Although again, perhaps the underlying idea is basically to encourage local people to engage with heritage via the NYMR and its annual tickets, and to effectively subsidise their repeat visit travel from the fares paid by tourists who can more easily afford to pay that much for a one-off visit. Though while I understand (and to a large extent agree with) the principle of widening access and encouraging local visitors in that kind of way I’m not sure this is necessarily the best way to implement it.

3 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

As to the rebranding, I am referring to the new look Moors Line

Have they done any wider rebranding as an organisation or just for that? It would seem odd to do one without the other.

3 hours ago, Boris said:

The whole ticket thing has been bouncing around for ages, the prebooking thing was massively unpopular and most of the booking clerks walked out because of customer abuse. 

Did they attempt to make it prebooked only, or just recommend that people prebook? I don’t think the latter would be unreasonable if they think the capacity will sell out and advise pre-booking to guarantee a ticket. However, it sounds like it’s veering a bit too much towards the Snowdon Mountain Railway model of only coming back on the same train you went up on (which to be fair to Snowdon is more understandable on their line, even if it’s not ideal for some passengers).

On a different note, another variation that I’ve just thought of on my post above (about how/if museums with train rides charge for them) is the NRM, where they’re still paid for even though the museum itself is free to enter.

4 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

Last year I went to a small railway/museum which had a gala with a visiting loco as well as their own stock being used. For £3 more than the gala ticket, I joined the Society and got free admission for the rest of the year, discount in the shop and a magazine each quarter.

.

Did that include admission on gala/event days? In any case I thought the issue being raised on Nat Pres was that some people had joined as members in order to get free/reduced repeat visits and weren’t sure if the extra cost of membership over the NYMR annual tickets was worth it for the other benefits involved (unless they joined as a member more altruistically to support the railway of course). I’ll need to find a link to the relevant page.

3 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

The sight of John Bailey lecturing L&B members on good governance over on Nat Pres

Without wanting to unnecessarily get too involved in any mudslinging, does he post as lineisclear? I think I know the posts you mean.

3 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

pointless and offensive rebranding exercise

I might have missed this but would be interested to see.

3 hours ago, russ p said:

We sold quite a few singles for people who wanted to walk in one direction and use the railway purely as a mode of transport 

I enjoyed a trip like that in 2021, mountain-biking one way and train back.

2 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

It's ridiculous in another way too: that's £45 for an entire year, which means seats on trains are pretty well being given away to anybody who can afford regular repeat visits while casual walk up visitors are being priced out. So the seats which are filled aren't being paid for.

That’s what I was getting at in my previous post - it doesn’t seem a great way of managing capacity. If they’d done it as a way to encourage local people to engage with the railway more regularly (subsidised by tourists who only visit once) then that seems fair enough but it’s probably not the best way to encourage such engagement; the models seen elsewhere of reduced fares for people living in certain local postcodes or having cheap days specifically targeted at local people would seem a more obvious solution.

30 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Where's this information from? The NYMR website mentions short journey returns on the Daily Train Service page: https://www.nymr.co.uk/pages/category/book-tickets

 

I find it a little curious that there is no mention of short journey singles, since I would have expected some demand for them from walkers and people travelling to/from holiday accommodation. Perhaps they don't do singles, but they certainly do short journey returns for £13.50, so your "well over £100" might be a little over £40.

 

All children travel free (there appears to be no limit to the number of children each adult can take - but there does need to be an adult "supervisor", it seems), making it quite reasonable for families.

I would have thought that it would be easier to manage capacity constraints (especially to Whitby) if people were booked on specific trains. I wonder how much capacity is left for short journey tickets though if they’re walk-up only.

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

The only other Heritage railway type place I've encountered it is the Tramway museum at Crich, although it makes more sense for them as their model is for people to have multiple short tram trips, look round the museum, and then use the pub and cafe. That's something that can stand repeat visits. 

 

I suspect there might be a bit of  "we did it this way in my previous job so it must work everywhere" going on with the NYMR adopting this. 

Crich again is a museum so there are other things to do besides the trams. Unlike my Mail Rail example they obviously don’t foresee capacity issues created by people riding the trams more than once on busy days - presumably they’d limit the number of journeys if this was an issue.

The other one is the Yorkshire Museum of Farming, where the basic DVLR train ride (not cab rides etc.) is free with museum admission as many times as you want to ride. I’m not sure what (if any) funding agreement there is around this.

4 hours ago, john new said:

Some odd decisions made, or at least odd from my perspective, example the no intermediate destination tickets - just a flat £45 fare valid for twelve months. For a couple that is £90 in one hit just for the fare plus ancillaries like fuel and food making it well over a £100. That is a lot when many have big mortgages and the lowish incomes  of the contemporary gig economy. Add on more on top too if they are parents. The cost discourages riding on the first trip so they don't come back. I know it has deterred other members of my family from going.

I found the tickets valid for 12 months a slightly odd concept, at least as applied to a typical heritage railway like the NYMR. I have seen them in more conventional museum settings, and making the ticket an annual pass can provide a way to collect Gift Aid without actually adding an additional donation on top of the normal ticket price, provided that the person buying the ticket is a UK taxpayer and is willing to provide the relevant personal details for Gift Aid. I wonder if the NYMR is attracted to this sort of arrangement because of the Gift Aid angle. But it’s slightly different in a normal museum, in the sense that the museum is open anyway (with the fixed costs that that implies) and their isn’t then a particular cost specifically attributable to each additional individual visitor. For instance, we have annual tickets a bit like this at the Postal Museum - they do encourage people to visit again, and particularly encourage local people (especially families) to visit as they are likely to be able to return within the year, sometimes multiple times. So it works well for the museum itself and also provides a benefit to its community. However, on repeat visits visitors need to book and pay for Mail Rail again (though it’s included on the original visit), which helps to manage the capacity and cost aspect of that. But at the same time some visitors may not want another ride on their second visit anyway, preferring to use their annual ticket to just look round the museum galleries at no additional cost - the train is not the only reason to visit. This model of ticketing doesn’t seem to be directly applicable to a typical heritage railway, where even if there is a small museum or similar somewhere along the line the train ride itself is definitely the main (and in some cases the only substantial) attraction.

I also thought that the NYMR was experiencing capacity issues on some (usually Whitby) services at busy times (surely a better problem to have than the opposite situation of not getting enough uptake to cover costs, or so you’d think), so presumably annual ticket holders still need to book a departure time in some way even if doing so doesn’t cost them anything.

In terms of the flat annual fare structure I’d be interested to know what benefits (to either the NYMR itself or potential visitors) might be perceived. I can think of a few but there can also think of some caveats:

- The increased value for money that it represents for people (particularly if they live locally) who are likely to actually make use of their ability to revisit within 12 months. On the other hand (and perhaps a tiny bit more cynically), the NYMR would make more money from those who only visit once but now pay the higher fare - but this only works if the higher fare isn’t so high that it dissuades them from visiting at all.

(Personally, if I lived near to the NYMR and was able to visit regularly I’d probably regard the annual ticket as good value, apart from the need to pay the whole cost upfront - even if I only made one or two repeat visits that would make the ticket price each time equivalent to £22.50 or £15.00, which in fairness is getting more sensible given that it’s a long and interesting ride. But I don’t live near, so with the best will in the world I’d probably find it hard to fit in another visit within 12 months.)

- The simpler fare structure - just as some other lines sell day rovers, they seem to be selling one that is valid for a whole year. But the flip side is that it presumably makes it harder to predict how much capacity will be needed (and when) for repeat visitors.

- Related to the point above about local people making repeat visits, I gather that one of the good things the NYMR has been doing recently (though it’s not really related to the operational/commercial side) is more outreach, reaching a more diverse audience from the local area and the wider region (including people from low-income backgrounds). So some form of ticket specifically for local people on low incomes, enabling them to visit the railway and promoting community engagement in heritage might be a good idea, even if it didn’t directly and immediately make money. Similar arrangements have been implemented in several museums, in some form or other, and there are other heritage railways that give discounts to local residents. The NYMR annual ticket doesn’t really seem to provide this though, as the one-off cost is too high. Maybe it would be different if it could be paid in instalments, but even that doesn’t seem the best solution to this.

- If it is related to Gift Aid, I wonder whether it was originally hoped, or calculated, that the income from Gift Aid plus secondary spend on repeat visits would be higher overall than the income from fares (including relatively low fares for single tickets over only part of the line) under the previous system.

Separately, I understand from the discussion on the Nat Pres forum that the annual ticket pricing complicated things slightly by undercutting the cost of membership (which also allowed free/reduced cost repeat visits), making membership a less attractive option for some people. I’m not sure if this issue has subsequently been addressed at all.

But seriously, I really hope the NYMR can sort itself out and resolve the issues as it’s a lovely line and one I’ve enjoyed visiting in the past.

9 hours ago, fezza said:

 

I think so much depends on context.

 

I have seen a model of a concentration camp at a Holocaust museum, complete with railway and wagons delivering "passengers".

 

If you built a model railway like that for Ally Pally, you'd probably be arrested for a hate crime.

 

Was the museum model operating though? As I said before, there’s something about the movement that gives a different feel when compared to a static model.

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

In all this, a good (and less controversial) guide is the Luton club's model of the Great Train Robbery. It was a static diorama, in a tent, where visitors were treated to a somewhat dry telling of the whole story, based on facts. The team had put a terrific amount of work in, to produce an accurate history, devoid of lurid detail.

 

Despite this, I know people who not only wouldn't look at it, they said it should be destroyed.

 

Online, magazines that featured the model saw comment sections with people screaming that they would never buy the magazine, and often anything from that publisher, ever again.

 

If we can't deal with a relatively minor (in comparison) event, I suggest that many wartime railways are far too challenging for us to deal with. Leave it to a museum.

I thought the Luton club’s diorama and overall presentation was very good. It also isn’t necessarily easier for museums in some cases. I’m told that this temporary exhibition partly on the same subject generated a small amount of controversy when it was open, despite the focus being (rightly) on the victims and the investigators (and of course, not exclusively on the Great Train Robbery but other previous crimes as well). But what museums do have, in general, is greater capacity and space to communicate the intent behind such displays and the expectation from visitors that they might see this kind of content.

Of course, there are some so-called “museums” that don’t do this in a particularly responsible way. There was a lot of controversy several years ago when the Jack the Ripper museum opened, and as mentioned in this article, I think the sensationalism and lack of distinction drawn between real and imagined scenes (e.g. the fake ‘study/office’ of a person we know hardly anything about) is a big part of the problem. Yet the Museum of London did an exhibition on a similar theme several years previously which apparently was very good, and tied the material appropriately into the context of Victorian social history and what that part of London was like at the time.

10 hours ago, ianmianmianm said:

I wanted to come back again on this thread at the risk of a bit of self-promoting of my project.

 

I've just spent 17 days building a layout which I have loosely placed on a fictitious island that is either a current or former UK Overseas Territory (AKA colony) and is set in the 1980s. It's a very simple tuning fork track plan, but a key scenic feature of it is an open roadway area where I am using a radio controlled bus and car that will come into the station yard and each able to reverse and turn round. It about 4 frrt by 15 inches.

 

This project has literally thrown on its head the way the layout needs to be designed because structures, scenics, trees and telegraph poles, as well as track plan, have to allow the right amount of turning space for the road vehicles - it's not as precise as a buried-wire based system, but the bus is fun to drive and can be driven very slowly. It also has working lights and sound on board.

 

The bus and car models are HO scale which has meant I needed to set some pathways as to what scale I use for stock and other accessories. This in itself meant blending HO and OO buildings, while sticking to HO for figures, vehicles and stock. Being a supposed British territory, I managed to locate an HO scale Rover P6 police car, and ford transit, and the prototype allows me to mix some of the HO scale American Oxford diecast vehicles with more European models - as happens a lot on islands close to the US. 

 

At the moment the only aberration is the OO scale british phone box - I am witing to see how I feel about that one but it could always be replaced by a Brawa HO one if needed. Stock on the layout is in European and Japanese HO scale but the randomness of narrow gauge loading gauges might allow others to be tried out.

 

I've really really enjoyed building this as it's an unusual prototype, its been fun to research what's available out there (not to mention the endorphine of finding what you need on Ebay). Blending the building styles without it looking like a kid'd train set has also been a challenge and almost all the buildings were cheap exhibition finds of between 50p and £9 which have had reworked roofs, repaints or been decorated with signs researched on the net. I've also lived and worked in 3 UKOT locations as well as Malta, so being able to 

 

If it ever makes it to an exhibition then I'd hope it would provoke discussion and be a break from all those diesel depots.... or maybe it might be too abstract for some tiny minds to cope with....

That looks really interesting. Is it based on a specific part of the world? I don’t think there are any railways left in the remaining Overseas Territories but Bermuda (among others) once had quite an interesting system. I have an idea for a little side project, much smaller but on a vaguely similar theme (though on mine it was going to be a very lightweight tourist line, probably in a fictional British territory to justify the use of a bit of UK-style rolling stock and make research easier but very much inspired by this railway in Honduras). I came up against similar questions around scale and gauge, whether it should actually be 009 as I normally do or 00/H0 standard gauge, even if the prototype might have used 3’ 6” in preference to standard gauge etc.