Tallpaul69

Hi All,

I am making this request because I am no baseboard or layout builder.

I have two layouts built for me by professional builders that a third builder is going to integrate for me. I am examining whether I should have him include wiring etc. for automation.

It has been suggested to me I need an automation test track to avoid costly mistakes on the main integration project.

This needs to be say, a 6ft x4ft surface, foldable on itself to 2x 3ft x 4ft size to protect the track etc . in storage. I have nowhere to place it permanently! 

The track(code 100) needs to be a single track oval, with a loop on one long side. There needs to be c6 sidings connected to the other long side from the loop, three facing in each direction on the circuit of track.

All electrics (DCC), point motors and current measurement wiring for train location must be fitted. I will supply the command station, iTrack software, laptop etc.

I suggest track etc. is on cork base.

No signals, scenics, or ballasting etc. needed. 

Any queries please PM me.

I need the layout complete and delivered to me in Leighton Buzzard (South Bedfordshire) before the beginning of 2024.

Many thanks

Paul  

Good Afternoon everyone,

Ij my last post I said i would put up a plan of the layout and give some details of the automation i wanted to achieve.

So here is the layout.

This is the current layout, there will be an additional loop and sidings added at the top of the layout so that there are three tracks in the fiddle yard in each direction. 

At the beginning of a session the trains that will later work automatically are in the fiddle yard or the branch terminally that are accessed via the double junction at the left side of the plan. 

Firstly, a freight train will proceed under manual control from the  or terminal wrong road via the double junction to the middle siding on the lower set of three loops (which I will call the Up loops. On arrival I will run its loco round it via the top of the up loops and reverse the train so it is in its loop. All setting of the points will be done manually .

Next I will follow a similar procedure with another freight , but this time working right road to the middle of the upper(or Down sidings. The loco on this train will not need to run round  .

Next another Up train will follow the same procedure as the first up train. 

Then another Down train will follow a similar procedure to the first down train.

The final Up train will be a DMU so will follow a similar procedure to the first two Ip trains, except no running round will be required because it will be a DMU (or sometimes an Auto train!)

With the six loops having each a train I would want to turn a switch, press a button, or click on a button on the screen to set the automation in train. 

First a down train will circuit the continuous run, non stop, back to its initial loop. While it is in motion an Up train will start to circulate, the timing being such that the two trains do not pass in the station platforms . Different types of train will run at different speeds

Once all six trains have completed their circulations, I will have two options:-

1) repeat the above.

2) return to manual control and return the six trains to the fiddle yard and terminal in a reverse of the initial procedure.

I might then repeat the exercise with a different set of six trains or continue with manual control which might involve some of the six trains.

I appreciate all trains used automatically will need to be detailed in iTrain.

I hope this makes sense to you readers?

Cheers

Paul

18 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Hi Paul,

Here is an extract from my trains list in Traincontroller.  It applies similar principles to iTrain and wants to know the lengths of vehicles.  But as Michael has said, that’s only the vehicles it ‘knows about’.

 

So:-

D01G, D08B etc. are all 3 car DMUs, a single ‘vehicle’ for each set.

PAD4, 5, and 6 are all LH sets with 4, 5 and 5 (!) vehicles in each.  TSO is a single coach that gets added to PAD6 for alternate trips.

VB2 is actually a train made of 2 parcels sets of 2 vans each. SWI2 is a train with a 2 van and a 3 van set which will go down as separate short trains and come back combined, together with the BG at the top which goes down attached to PAD5 on its final working.

 

So you can see that you don’t need to create each coach or wagon, just the constituent parts of the formations that you run.

 

Theoretically, for a LH train doing tail chasing that never got separated from its traction, you could just create a loco and give it the length of the train.  That is effectively what I have done for the DMUs.  On my layout I can’t do it for LH as the locos get swapped at each end of the run, and I wouldn’t want to even if I could as I’m sure I’d want to change traction at some point.

 

Hope that gives an idea of how much is needed and how little that can be.

 

Paul.

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the above, that's really helpful.

Talking of DMUs, how do you deal with end car driven ones and centre car driven ones, in the same loop or siding (at different times)?

Is it best to divide the loop/siding into three to cope with the three positions that the motor might be in - front car, centre car or rear car?

Your point about changing traction is a fair one, but I guess having "trains" that have a "loco" plus "Express1", or "Express2", or "Freight1" or "Freight2", I can manage! 

In my next post I will put up a plan of the round and round element of the layout to explain in more detail how I want to use the automation and also run the same trains manually.

Cheers for now

Paul 

Has anyone yet received a sound fitted 7810 Draycott Manor , ordered direct from Accurascale or or like me, via Rails?

Cheers 

I hope everyone is ready for Halloween?

On the modelling front I am just starting to get to grips with iTrajn software, which seems from responses on my fiddle yard automation thread to be the most recommended for model railway automation.

However, to get to understand this screen I have a course of 30+ videos on Youtube, each 15-20 minutes long to plough through!

So far, I have looked at the first two and already I have concerns:-

I had been looking to use a handheld Mini computer as my interface with iTrain, but the amount of information on the display suggests I need to use a laptop with a largish screen, which, in itself, is not a problem, it is just that I don't have anywhere handy in my Railway Room to position such a big screen without masking a chunk of the railway. And it is not just a screen, I need to be able to use the computer, so I can't put it on the wall.

Secondly, the second video suggests i have to input details of every item of rollingstock on the layout as well as details of the engines, signals, every length of track and point, never mind uncouplers and anything else  attached to the railway.

I am hoping that further into the videos I will find that for my limited use some data is not necessary and that there are shortcuts to all this data entry.

I will keep you updated on how I get on.

But meanwhile, don't forget to put your clocks back Saturday night (in the UK that is)!

Cheers for now,

Paul

40 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Hi Paul,

Sorry you’re feeling downbeat about it.

What you want to do will be “easy” in the software.  You may need some help, but plenty is available on here as you have discovered.  You may need to re state your “keep it simple for me” mantra at interval to stop us techie types rushing off into more detail than you want!

 

I perceive your biggest difficulty will be retrofitting the layouts to take the current detection, but if your layout builder can do that, you will be well on the way.

 

Having to decide on block numbers and positions before you try will make it a little more tricky.  One question (which will help in the decision making) is how long are your loops compared to the length of the trains in them?  If they are tight, more precision is required and that might drive you to extra train detection sections in some blocks.  If there is plenty of wiggle room, then one train detection section per block may well suffice.

 

Paul.

Thanks for your input Paul,

As you can see from my last two posts, I have a few concerns!

However, I will battle on and see how things go.

Yes, the point about loops had occurred to me.  

The answer is quite tight. Another factor taking things in the direction of two blocks per loop is that for flexibility I would like sometimes to use two short trains, one perhaps being a loco only (or two) , or a loco and van, in a loop.

I had already recognised as well , what I call techie drift, although what I usually observe is more a drift away from the subject, but your point is well made and I will have to watch out for "info overload"!

More comment after I have watched videos 3&4, or after just 3, if i find that one heavy going!

Paul 

16 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Don't assume that you can spend a quiet evening watching them ... there's rather a lot of them.  They are very well thought out, and I can recommend watching the whole lot - in sequence, but you'll also need to do some practical work using it as you go or you'll not learn.  Just accept that iTrain is  a very sophisticated piece of software and it will do most of what you are  ever likely to want to automate and quite a lot more than you had even thought of. 

Michael,

I have watched the first two so far. With there being over 30 of them, I think it could take a month or so to get threw them all! Even longer if I have to go back and re watch earlier ones for things I have forgotten. Unfortunately I am only going to be able to run iTrains online for quite a while as it is going to be next spring before my builder gets to do the layout updates. Maybe earlier if i can get a test oval built as per Ian's (ITG) post above.

I have two worries from episode 2:-

1) There is so much info on the screen that in order to be able to see the detail, it will need a laptop, but I can't at the moment see where i can put a laptop in the operating area where i can see it and see the railway as well!  I had been thinking of using something like a Lenovo Mini, but the screen will be too small.

2) The amount of data to be input seems horrific. Do I really have to in put the details of every wagon and coach I am going to use, and if I buy something new, stop and enter its details?

Hopefully, things will be clearer as I get furth in to it!

I will update my progress and thoughts like the two points above to this thread as I go along.

Best regards

Paul

19 hours ago, ITG said:

Interesting thread for me to read, mainly because I started out on the automation journey probably a year ago, helped by many of the modellers who are now contributing to this thread.

I decided to go for Z21 and iTrain, for similar reason to the OP.

Early on, decided to build a small test layout (oval with a passing loop and three sidings, with in total about a dozen feedback sensors). I used a DIgikejis DR4088LN as that was available at the time, (actually, in anticipation of the future proposed larger layout I bought half a dozen pre-owned ones at about half new price) but as I will in future need one more, that is a Yamorc current sensor (perfectly compatible).

to @Tallpaul69 I would say, don’t be too long before you jump in, as I found the practice of actually doing it to be easier learning than the theory of trying to understand every nuance on this forum. But then be prepared to expand your horizons, as I found that iTrain far exceeded my expectations once I began to use it. I still class myself as a trainee, but the specialist iTrain forum (available once you have a licence, I think) is always on hand, as is the series of excellent YouTube videos.

good luck

Ian 

Hi Ian,

Yes I did something similar before I finally decided on DCC for my new layouts. However, that was a lot simpler, with surface wiring, and I had plenty of space in the room my layouts now fully occupy!

Can you tell me what size your test layout was? An oval with a passing loop and some sidings sound about right.

Given the amount of wiring and the fact that I think the only way I can house a test oval would be as a say 6ft x 4ft which folds in the middle for storage so as to protect the track, I think I have to find someone to make it for me!

I will keep this thread updated on progress,

Cheers

Paul

Good afternoon fellow modellers.

After yesterdays down beat posting, I am trying to be a bit more positive!

Reviewing where I am in my quest to provide part automation to my layout I have realised that while I know a fair bit about the physical requirements, I know little very little about setting up the software.

Now I know that this will vary from command centre to command centre, but as currently the Roco Z21 seems favourite and ITrain the software, for the moment I am going to investigate the use of these choices.

Firstly, I am going to investigate iTrain on U tube, but any help will be gratefully received.

Best regards

Paul

Hi All,

To try to understand this subject better, I have been watching Utube, and reading a number of threads on the subject of automation/train detection.

However, the more I watch/read the more complicated everything seems!

Even having decided that current monitoring seems the best method, there is plenty of complication and decisions:-

how many monitoring points  per section, which depends on the length of the section, and how to decide the optimum section length. Then, should points be monitored or not,  you can't have points within a section, even if they are not going to be reset while the automation is running. etc. etc.

And all that is before we get into the setting up!

It just seems too much  agro, when all I want is to sometimes  run three trains in sequence clockwise on the down main line, and three more anticlockwise on the up mainline, while I perform shunting in areas clear of the main lines.

Mainly I enjoy operating the points, signals, uncouplers and of course THE TRAINS!

I expect it all seems very easy to those of a technical bent, but for those of us who are not, and who are more interested in operation than building, I wonder if the ends justify the considerable effort required?

But maybe I have been watching/reading too much by authors who revel in the technicalities?

Perhaps someone can offer me a simple step by step way through all this?

I remain hopeful, but I realise I am probably going to fall back to a tail chasing scene.

So trains will make a number of circuits before I interrupt my shunting, or whatever, to manually swap trains over.  Sometimes this will give me a while between train changes as for instance, it will take a while for a slow unfitted freight to make two or three circuits.

Cheers everyone

Paul

Good Afternoon one and all,

Not much going on  modelling wise at the moment and its likely to be that way for the next couple of weeks with a number of family things going on.

The Roco Z21 is still my favourite to replace the NCE and go to wireless operation, but no final decisions yet made.

I have been looking at the possibility of including a limited amount of automation.

The idea is just to allow some automated running while I am shunting or while I do scenic work.

I had already planned in the above situation to run  one train up and one train down while I did other things. However I realised that  with the planned introduction of a third down track into the continuous run's fiddle yard, there was potential to run three trins up and three down in sequence, rather than a single up and single down train going round and round, giving greater realism.  

So I have started a new thread called "Can I automate my fiddle yard?"in the "computer" section of RMWeb, which has produced some useful input.

I am currently waiting for Iain (WIMorrison) to produce a version of my track plan showing a suggested set of sections for current monitoring round the layout, which will provide data to run the automation. 

I hope everyone is progressing with there layouts, certainly things look good with the layout threads I monitor!

Best regards

Paul

Thanks, I will send it over by PM tomorrow.

Paul

I have now looked at the TrainController site. Not impressed!

Given Iain's comments, I will not take it any further.

The assumption that everyone is a dab hand at superglue, small drills and soldering is not valid in my case, especially when combined with awkward access under baseboards and poor lighting! Even  above baseboard at full stretch, I am not at my best.

I expect I will find a way round, although my layout builder, while doing DCC, is not an automation/computer type. However, if I know exactly what is needed he will hopefully cope with the connections as they seem to me similar to drop wires?  

Let's keep smiling!

Paul

7 minutes ago, ColinK said:

I’m no expert, but I think you can achieve what you want using TrainController software. One of my friends has automated his entire complex layout using it, although it did take him quite a while to get it all working the way he wanted. The trains all run to a timetable he has created and you can just sit back and watch them run.  However, it is great fun to physically drive another train manually at the same time, for which you have to observe all the signals.  You can also set the programme to run one train which will traverse every bit of track, ideal for the track cleaning wagon.

Hi Colin,

Unfortunately, none of these types of software system work without signals telling them what is happening, and providing such signals requires hardware to sense something (such as movement or current). Installing additional hardware on existing tracks is not always easy! 

Regards

Paul 

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

The up-to-date method of tracking trains is by using current sensing which enables you to see where the train is all the time, not just when it passes over a sensor. Current sensing also reduces the number of feedbacks required.

 

You divide the layout into section - called feedbacks- and each one is connected to the feedback current sensor which will then feedback to the computer through the command station to the computer providing the automation.

Cheers Iain,

A few questions:-

1) How do I install feeds to current sensors from existing track? Do I just attach a wire to the current sensor to existing drop wires?

2) For current sensing what is best practice in deciding the sections? Do I make each section the plain track between two points, ignoring places where points are adjacent or quite close to each other? Is there a recommended maximum length for a section?

3) Is there a recommended place in a section for a feed - does it matter if it is at one end or in the middle of the section? Do I need to be consistent or can they be where is convenient from other considerations e.g. baseboard joints?

Many Thanks,

Paul 

24 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

This is where your logic unfortunately falls over 🫢

 

If you do not have sensors on all the track then when a train leaves the track that does have sensors it will remain showing where it was last 'seen' until you delete it. This is understandable because the software relies upon being able to see where items are and if they 'disappear' then it will fail safe and leave them occupying the block where they were last seen.

 

Similarly when it reappears on the monitored section you will need to tell the software that it has 'reappeared' (unless You are using Railcom)

OK, Iain, I now understand that!

However, I have not investigated Railcom, is this an alternative to ITrain, or something different?

Ignoring Railcom for the moment, would it work if I just placed one sensor halfway round the circuits or should I divided the circuits of track outside the fiddle yard into say 4 zones ?

Taking the clockwise track as an example these would be:-

Fiddle yard exit to southern junction,

southern junction to station starter signal ,

Station starter signal to north junction,

north junction to  fiddle yard entrance.

There are other points in the Station area such as crossovers and the station yard access. 

There is no intention to use these points other than in the straight ahead mode when operating the automatic sequence.

The north and south junctions are double junctions where the branch to the terminal (north junction) and a set of sidings (southern junction), leave the main lines. Again, there is no intention to use these lines leaving the main line under automation. 

I assume that there would need to be a sensor roughly at the middle of each section?

Any other thoughts?

Many thanks

Paul

Good Afternoon everyone,

I have been watching various U tube videos on ITrain and the Roco Z21.

It seems to me that to achieve the limited amount of automation I want, (and I know lots of you will tell me that once I try it I will want  complete automation), I need the following:-

A suitable command station, wifi enabled

A router

A suitable wifi enabled controller - at the moment I am looking at items such as the Levono Mini with 3Gb storage.

Sensors for the fiddle yard tracks and cabling to them

Feeds/sensors to the relevant points and the necessary cabling

An interface between the sensors and the command station.

Software such as ITrain.

I do not see the need for sensors in any other areas of the layout. As far as the system is concerned there will just be straight track.

I can accept that in the scenic areas during the automatic operation, the signals will have to remain at "off", and therefore not be prototypical. (There are no signals in the fiddle yard area!)

However, I am not sure how "normal" operation of the "automated fiddle yard would work, or to put it another way how the automation would be switched on and off?

Or have I got this all wrong?

Thanks for any assistance,

Cheers

Paul

18 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

I have assisted an 86 year old gentleman (he was 83 when we started) do exactly what you are suggesting and he has done it with ease and actually made the statement that it has taken hi 50 years to get his layout running the way he always wanted it to and it is iTrain automation that has provided this for him.

 

He uses 17" touchscreens (£119) to control his turnouts - effectively mimic diagrams on steroids because he can also control the trains using the same panel 😉

 

The biggest challenge you will have is the NCE because their interface is not as robust as others, certainly poor compared to Loconet or the Z21 interface, and I would recommend that you consider this new requirement very carefully in your choice of command station because they are not all equal!

I will be grateful for any assistance you can give me, I have appreciated your input to my other threads.

Best regards

Paul 

6 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I also use a touchscreen to control turnouts, signals, etc although mine is a tad larger at 22". It works very well for me.

 

I agree with Iain that if you are aiming for automation, then the computer connection of your command station is a vital consideration. I moved away from a GM Prodigy since its computer link is expensive and slow.

 

Yours, Mike

Great Mike,

But what did you move to and why did you choose that one? What others did you consider and reject and Why?

Many thanks

Paul

I think I had already reached the stage of thinking that the disadvantages of the NCE for Wifi outweighed the advantages.

Currently, the Z21 is probably my favoured option.

Hi everyone,

Some of you will have seen or contributed to my threads in elsewhere in the DCC arena where I have been looking at how to go wireless from my current NCE Powercab controls.

Before making a decision on the way forward I want to explore the possibilities for the next stage so that I don't make any short term decisions that I later regret!

So what do I mean by "Can I automate my fiddle yard?"  First some background:-

My layout housed in a 12ft x 8ft room will eventually comprise a continuous run occupying 12ft x 4ft and a branch that leads to a 8ft x 2ft end to end branch terminal along the far wall leaving me a 9ft x 2ft operating well.  

At present the 12ft x 4 ft and the 8ft x 2ft operate as separate layouts both controlled by NCE Powercabs. They were both built professionally as my skills in that direction are non existent - operation and scenics are my interests. They were built by different professional layout builders partly due to the disruption caused by Covid!

I have a project under way to unite the two layouts and a third layout builder has been to look at the layouts and is booked to dismantle the two layouts and take them away to his workshop to do this. The recent announcement by DCC of their Aegis wifi system for NCE suggested that wifi should be examined. Other wifi systems are currently under evaluation.

I currently enjoy running clockwise and anticlockwise trains tail chasing on my continuous run while I shunt the station yard or work the end to end layout. It occurred to me that the the enjoyment would be greater if the fiddle yard of the continuous run (located on the far side of that layout from the control centre), and having two loops in each direction , could be used so that three trains in sequence could proceeded round the continuous run in each direction while I shunt the station yard or the terminal. I assume this will require some sort of computer control?

I should add that the terminal's Powercab controls that layout's points (acting via solenoids) and signals as well as the locos, while the continuous run's Powercab only controls that layout's locos. The points are controlled by two DCC Cobalt Central 12 way switch panels which connect to the tracks and the point motors by via the second socket on the NCE Panel. The point motors here are Cobalt IP Digital turnout motors. The signals are to be installed on the continuous run as part of the layout joining project. They have been built by Stephen Freeman and he has supplied all the items necessary to operate them via the IP Digital turnout motors.

The current intention is to alter the point and signal controls so that they are all controlled by switches on a Mimic Diagram that my builder will supply.

However, I can see that this might not be sensible in the context of the above automation requirement.

I hope the above makes sense, and that someone can help me make the right decisions.

I only have one shot at this.

At the age of 75, I want to get as many years operational enjoyment out of my railway as I can, starting again is not an option!

Thanks in advance,

Paul

Hi There,

The screen you put up on your posting is unfamiliar to me, and I regularly (every week) post and sell or repost items! However, I use a laptop and I know the screens look different on other devices and other operating systems.

What device is it on? What operating system are you using?

Perhaps you need to change operating system?

Hope you sort it 

Cheers

Paul

Hi Everyone,

Not wishing to be incensitive, and recognising that RMWeb, is a model of a broad church(!), I think it time to drag the conversation back to the subject of control systems:-

My current thinking is that if the Roco (in multiple(!)), is good enough for Pete Waterman, then it's good enough for me, although the thought on  passwords warrants investigation.

However, I still have some layouts to investigate, so this is just where I am at at the moment.

So....................Watch this space!

Cheers for now

Paul  

2 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

But remember that this is a one way process - the Z21 will see that you have done something with your NCE set, but the NCE will not be aware of anything that any controls undertaken by the Z21, any handsets, or any control systems attached to the Z21.

True, but as the Z21 will only be controlling locos, this should be ok?

Points, signals and uncouplers will be independent of the Z21 through a conventional Mimic diagram.

Or am I missing something?

Cheers

Paul 

Just now, 5BarVT said:

The Digitrax LNWI can have a password added.  WFRM enable that simply to stop phones auto connecting and doing exactly as stated.  I’m surprised that Making Tracks hadn’t already discovered the problem in Chester Cathedral.

 

As ever, something to be aware of so that you can prevent it being a problem should you go down that route.

 

Paul.

I wondered about how they got on at Chester, and concluded that the visitors there were probably more of a trickle than the "Flood" you get when doors open at a big exhibition!