Tallpaul69

40 minutes ago, jaym481 said:

If you like your NCE handset you can connect it to a Z21 through the sniffer input.

True, I just need to use the correct cable!

46 minutes ago, melmerby said:

We are  an anti-iOS household. 😁

 

There's nothing wrong with that in my book!. Each to their own, I say? 

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Hope you aren’t suffering too much brain overload!

Paul.

Thankfully not ,Paul!

If anything, GETS was not as immediately productive as I had hoped. I had forgotten how crowded it is after the first hour, so having  conversations was not that easy.

So last night i went through the show program listing the layouts and sales stands that i need to investigate further. A number of the layouts, perhaps unsurprisingly, have featured in the Hornby Magazine , and helpfully the program lists the issue number they were in.

I was particularly disappointed on a couple of counts. Firstly, the number of layouts using "Wifi" was small and secondly, more specifically, the DCC Concepts stand was tiny and rubbish compared with ones they have had in the past at Ally Pally, for instance. They had no prototypes of the wifi  on view, all they had was a A4 sized bit of sales bumf and a board asking the visitors if they were ready for Aegis, to which I felt like saying :- "More than you seem to be!"

However, an amusing story on the Wifi front was to do with the biggest user of Wifi which was the combined three "Making Tracks" layouts. Given they stretched the length of the hall at 156 feet, its use is not surprising. 

Anyway, as soon as the doors opened to advance ticket holders, the Making Tracks setup came to an abrupt halt! Pete Waterman said later that they thought what happened was that as the initial surge of visitors came through the doors, their phones all tried to latch on to the Making Tracks network and crashed it!

As I don't anticipate many visitors to my layout, I don't think this need be a concern to me in going "Wifi"! Hopefully my railway room is too far from the road to be troubled by pedestrians or motorists phones.

More on wifi  anon after I have done some more investigating.

Take care All,

Paul

5 hours ago, jamesed said:

You aren't restricted to just one type of control with the Z21. Use as many as you like - even mix android and ios if you wish.  I use two Lenovo M10 tablets (the 2nd gen version with 3Gb RAM) which you can buy for about £100, I also have a wifi Multimaus and I often have my androud phone connected too.  My tablets are most of the time mounted on gooseneck brackets clamped to the side of my baseboard but can quickly and easily be removed when I want them to go mobile - sprung loaded arms. The power leads can be plugged in when in the gooseneck brackets. 

 

The Lenovo tablets work brilliantly well and never give any problem.  You can pick up the 2Gb RAM versions for about £75 which are probably ok too.  I just decided to play it safe with the 3Gb version. I think Roco recommend 3Gb but that is probably overkill. 

 

My main concern about android devices stems from lack of experience of them. We are an ios household and have been for many years (except for our laptops)!

I do wonder about the effectiveness of the "slider" throttles on the tablets as expresses by another contributor, but that may just be due to my familiarity with the NCE thumbwheel.

I guess I could start with a tablet and add a Wifi throttle if I found I did not get on with the "slider" throttle. 

The gooseneck brackets sound interesting - are they a commercial product, if so who supplies them?

Cheers

Paul

12 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

Hope you had a good day at GETS, Paul.

I'm not able to get there this year due to another commitment.

Hi Nick,

Yes, it was a good, if tiring day!

The date being shared with a football match at the stadium had a few consequences, especially for those coming by road today. 

However, the only effect on myself was that the buses home were a bit disrupted, but my theory is that this was more due to a bus breaking down than the football traffic, although I was heading home before the start of the match so the crowd was still arriving!

More on my visit and where I am on the layout controls tomorrow after I have got my thoughts together.

Cheers

Paul 

Hi Kaput, Izzy and Paul,

Thanks for the input guys, I will update the thread, after my visit to the Great Electric Show on Saturday.

Cheers,

Paul 

It looks like the good weather is set to last until the weekend, tomorrow excepted!

So I should be able to get to and from the Great Electric Show without getting wet.

Hopefully this visit will help me decide the way forward on converting my layout controls to wireless operation.

I started on the premise that the best way forward would be the DCC's newly announced wireless equipment designed to work with the NCE PowerCab.  However, I was not too enthusiastic about the large "lump" of kit that would hang off my PowerCab handset.

Respondents to my threads on the subject suggested that there were better options available. 

One of those receiving most enthusiasm was the Roco Z21. I was already aware of this system, so I have been investigating it further. It seems to be a more versatile system and its ability to work with an iPhone or iPad is attractive, but the need too manipulate a larger item than the normal handset in the limited space within my layout operating area could be a problem.

Another system which drew favourable comments was the TCS UWT 50E, which is a wireless handset that works with the NCE infrastructure using a router that plugs into the NCE panel instead of the PowerCab. 

I will update you further after some conversations with sellers at the Great Electric Show on Saturday. 

Cheers for now,

Paul

Good day one and all,

Sorry WIMorrison if you thought i did not appreciate your last post- I did say "Many thanks" at the end of my reply!

Also:-

I was amused by Melmerby's post:-

Quote- "It's amazing how often this crops up, with several posters putting their own slightly different interpretations on the data being presented."

Unfortunately, U Tube, is not the only place this occurs- I have even found it on RMWeb!

But enough of this frivolity, lats get back to the subject in hand?

If I go down the Roco route, ignoring for the moment the z21 or Z21 debate, I have to decide whether to go for a wireless handset or a iPad.

I am ruling out the iPhone option as I don't think it works for me - the screens presentation looks too small, and there could be the need for too much screen hopping, as against the greater information on the iPad screen.

The handset option appeals to me, mainly I suppose because that is what I am use to, but it will have the benefit of freedom of movement. However, I am not yet clear how downloading of updates works with a handset.

While the screen display and ease of operation using an iPad appeals to me, the larger physical size could be a drawback.

My operating area is some 9 ft long, but the width is only 1ft 9 ins at its narrowest and 2ft 3 ins at its widest. There are few places where track is further than an inch or so from the edge. 

On the face of it there is nowhere to put an iPad down.

So Before I spend out on an iPad, I need to borrow one to assess its useability in the operating area. 

Additionally, I would have to use the iPad on battery, as a power lead would negate the mobility benefits of being wireless!

Doubtless I can resolve some of the above at the Great Electric Show on Saturday.

Cheers for now,

Paul

16 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Paul,

 

You will get more success looking for videos on YouTube 😉

 

You will also find the app for updating the Z21 firmware on the Apple App Store. Simply enter Z21 in the search bar and you will be offered z21, z21 mobile (you do not want this app), and z21Updater. Or, you could simply have looked at the link provided by @melmerby which shows very clearly - not in the slightest techie

 

 

as a certain animal says, Simples

Okay,

So the Updater App, updates the firmware in the Z21 box? This was not immediately obvious to me!

The Techie stuff, was in an item earlier up the page called the Maintenance App!

I started at the top of the page, and after looking at the detail in this Maintenance App, I somewhat gave up before getting to the Updater App, which , from its name, was not(to me at any rate!) obvious as to what it was, or was for!

Many thanks

Paul 

10 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The Z21 website shows this (I always believe manufacturers info over you tube twaddle)

https://www.z21.eu/en/downloads/software-tools

Firstly, I did say that the U tube information was probably out of date, so I see no need to have a go at U tube!

Secondly, the reference you quote is clear that there are two versions of the app and updates for both, but I wasn't talking about updates to the app, I was talking about updates to the Firmware in the Z21 box. Unfortunately, the reference is full of techie speak, so is worse than the U tube, which was merely out of date.

Never mind, I am sure I will find someone to give me a straight plain speak answer at Great Electric Show on Saturday.

Thanks All,

Paul 

Good Evening All,

Dragging this thread back to its original purpose, I have been watching U tube videos on the Roco Z21.

One cause for concern, which may be out of date as the videos were several years old, is that it appears that the Firmware updates cannot be downloaded via iPhone or iPad?

If this is the case, I will need to acquire a non apple devise just for these updates, as I don't have access to one currently!

If this is the case, is there a way round it?

How often are firmware updates issued on average? If only once every couple of years maybe I can ignore them, if every few months it is a problem I have to deal with.

How do users go on who only have wireless handsets?

Cheers 

Paul

56 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

With what you describe I would not expect that a booster above the common 3A provided by many systems would be required, and definitely not a 5A booster which is too large.

 

A standard Z21 for somewhere around £360, or potentially a z21 at around £200 would meet your needs, and they would both enable WiFi either using the free phone/tablet app, or the use of the WIFI multimaus at around £110

As far as I know, NCE don't do a 3A supply, if you need more than the standard PowerCap 1.5A, the only upgrade is to 5A.

Alternatively  a Z21 + Multimaus is around £470, so similar cost to the DCE, but more modern system?

I will investigate!  

8 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

The Roco Z21 XL is fully Wi-Fi capable and is 6A natively without a booster and each additional booster will supply another 6A.

 

Z21 XL Series - Products - Roco z21

 

The Z21 XL can be purchased for around £530

 

However I did ask several posts ago why a booster was needed, e.g. what scale and how big the layout is, still no statement that would indicate why a 5A booster is needed, other than this is what DCC Concepts is going to sell. 

 

 

Some details on the layout:-

It is an 00 gauge layout in a 12ft x8ft room comprising a continuous run and a branch.

The controller power supply is supplying the tracks, rolling stock with lights, and locos. The accessories (points, signals, uncouplers) each have their own dedicated mains supply. There is another separate supply for the building lighting and one for the buffer stops lights (when they are installed).

I like to have two trains circulating on the continuous run, one loco shunting the yard on the continuous run, one loco shunting the yard on the branch, and at least one locos simmering in the main line loco yard, and one in the branch loco yard. In addition additional locos might be operating if a train stopped to change loco. Another loco might be running from the branch into the fiddle yard at the rear of the continuous run, which it can do without interfering with the trains on the continuous run.

In addition there is an operating turntable, which is not yet operational.

The locos are all modern manufacture post 2000, the majority are sound fitted., eventually all will be. There is a mixture of ESU, Lenz, Zimo and TTS decoders. 

If I have missed anything, please ask,

Cheers for now,

Paul

I have to admit that I have little interest in meters, and fail to see their relevance to my 12ft x 8 ft layout.

It seems to me that if you feel the need for meters, you are probably too near to utilising your system's maximum power for comfort?

So maybe you would be better investing in a bigger power supply?

Either that, or the track on the layout is in need of careful examination and improvement?

Meanwhile there is a deathly silence in response to my question in my last post as to whether there are other Wireless systems I should be looking at?

Cheers for now,

Paul

Good afternoon everyone,

Now seems a good time to amalgamate my two threads on this topic. As this thread has the most activity, I am bringing the other thread "Using a TCS UWT wireless controller to replace a PowerCab" into this thread.

Summarising the results from both threads:-

1) Both the UWT and the CC are seen as more up to date and therefore better technology than the DCC Aegis.

2) The disadvantage of the CC is that currently, it is not available, and therefore not supported in UK or Europe, although this situation could alter in the next 12 months.

3) From my point of view an advantage of the UWT is that it can be integrated into a NCC based system.

4)There has been a lot of discussion on the pros and cons of including an SB5 in the system. Many believe it unnecessary but my experience of electronics suggests an system that is run substantially under its maximum rating is going to be more reliable than one run often near to its maximum rating, so I shall include the SB5. 

But maybe I should consider other systems?

My thanks to everyone for their input,

Regards,

Paul 

22 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The CabControl base unit (ESU call it an ICU) contains the system's Command Station and Booster, plus WiFi contained within.

It comes with a 7 amp power supply.

The wireless handset, the Mobile Control II , connects via WiFi to the ICU.

You can add additional MC handsets, all connected via WiFi to the ICU.

 

You don't have to plug anything in to anything, other than the power supply to the ICU and the ICU to the track and accessories.

Your NCE socket panel (PCP)  will be redundant.

 

 

.

So there will be a rewiring job to do, transferring wiring from the PCP to the ICU, a location to be found for the ICU, and the hole in my facia, in full view on the layout front to be filled?

4 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

Based on my experience I disagree with this assertion. I have 20 plus sound chipped, 00 gauge locos including 4 Heljan ones which from my recently installed DCC Concepts Alpha meter, shows I draw a total curent that remains stable at around 1.2 Amps even when running several locos with sound on. My controller only provides power for the layout, I have seperate power supply for accessory control.

 

As an alternative to Powercab I suggest that ESU's 7Amp Cab Control be considered. This is more up to date than Powercab, comprises a wireless hand held controller made and supported by a known German manufacturer which can be imported into the UK from the USA for a total cost of around £400. 

 

 

What do you get with the ESU 7amp? 

Do you need a wireless receiver or is that included, and if included what does it plug into - can you use it with the NCE twin socket panel which I have fixed into my layout facia? 

Many thanks

Paul

Thanks for the correction...

Does use of the SB5 mean I don't need to leave a NCE hand set plugged in while I am using a wireless controller?

Best regards

Paul 

35 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

1)  You don't need to buy it all as a one-off.   Do you really need 5Amps ?  Not many layouts actually need 5Aamps.   So don't buy the DB5 until you show you need it. 

 

2)  "better" in these areas:    a) TCS handset works on any WiThrottle equipped layout, not tied to NCE for future, or visiting other layouts.  b)  TCS handset with batteries inside is way nicer than NCE handset with dangly lead to battery box carried in a pocket or hung on a belt (that lead is going to get caught on things),    c)  TCS throttle is nicer to use than a NCE handset.  d)  TCS throttle fully customisable with function names, whether functions are latching or not, on a per-loco basis  (this is really useful for sound locos).

 

3)   One option is available, known to work.    Other option is advertised for release in 2024, nobody knows if it works. 

 

 

This does cross to the other thread:
Roco Z21:   several ways, but a "Z21 professional" from DCC Train Automation is a one source solution of Z21, wireless WLanMaus, router, power supply £490.   (I think I could do it cheaper, try Scograil for the Z21, then add the other parts...).   A second WLanMaus would be about £120 (sell a PowerCab to fund it), or alternatively (better?) use a laptop or a smartphone or tablet as second device. 

Or much cheaper, but a little bit DIY:    DCC++Ex;   about £100 to £150 for complete system of command station, and 5Amp drive board, and WiFi module.    Add TCS UWT as required, or a phone/tablet as throttle(s).   

 

 

 

Thanks Nigel for your detailed reply, particularly the Z21 stuff. Below are my thoughts on your posting:-

1) possibly not, but I was trying to compare like with like- the DCC Concepts unit is 5Amp. Unfortunately, you cannot buy 3 amp on anything!

2)  a) TCS handset works on any WiThrottle equipped layout, not tied to NCE for future, or visiting other layouts. - Sorry, Withrottle is Greek to me?- don't foresee visiting other layouts or exhibiting!

b)  TCS handset with batteries inside is way nicer than NCE handset with dangly lead to battery box carried in a pocket or hung on a belt (that lead is going to get caught on things),  -Agreed

c)  TCS throttle is nicer to use than a NCE handset. - Have to take your word for that - might see if anyone has one I can try on the 14th at the GETS

d)  TCS throttle fully customisable with function names, whether functions are latching or not, on a per-loco basis  (this is really useful for sound locos). Not sure this is of use to me- sounds like a lot of data entry for little reward, buy my locos are mainly sound fitted!

3) Agreed!

Z21

I will follow up on this-also sounds Greek to me at the moment!

DIY

No thanks- Sounds too hands on for me! Might have done 40 years ago when I built an FM tuner from a kit!

I want to be able to talk to someone to solve my problems on a known system- don't want to spend my precious time fault finding my doggy soldering or poor connections. Prefer everything tidy in a case!

Thanks for your help,

Cheers,

Pauli

4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

For £500 as a wrapper around an NCE Powercab I am getting visions of V'Ger from the first Star Trek film.

 

Maybe it's part of an eco system for other DCC Concepts products, but what I see is a 5 amp system upgrade, a dongle and a lot of metal, why not just go to a better solution like a Roco and be done with it, which on the face of it looks more flexible.

Go on then, sell me the Roco, but dont forget to price all the bits needed, not just the handset?

Cheers

Paul

37 minutes ago, ColinK said:

Haven’t DCC Concepts just announced something that will do what you want.

Yes, they have, but many people on RMWeb, think it is expensive!

I have two threads on the go (the other one is titled DCC Concepts ESP Aegis), trying to get hard facts rather than theory or prejudice! 

Hope you can contribute?

Cheers

Paul

Thanks for your informative reply.

So does my shopping list for a 5 Amp system looks like this:

UWT 50                   £230

Wifi Trax                      80

Router                         20

DB5                             170  

Total                        £ 500

If so, it may be a better (in what respects?) solution than the DCC Concepts unit, but I don't see it as cheaper?

Cheers,

Paul

Can the TCS UWT wireless controller be used to replace a Powercab wired controller in a layout control system? I assume I would need to connect some sort of receiver unit into the socket in the NCE unit that the Powercab currently plugs into?

The Powercab is only used for loco control, accessories such as points and signals are conventionally controlled by switches and pushbuttons on a Mimic diagram.

Any help gratefully received! However, please keep the explanations simple, do not bombard me with Tecspeak, I am not a DCC expert!

Cheers

Paul  

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

For £500 I can see several systems that provide wireless capability without  any need for add on bits.

But are they Powercab compatable, and what is their power rating-is it 5A?

Not sure what you mean by add on bits?

Cheers

Paul

October continues its "Indian Summer" here.

My latest project is to investigate the potential of the DCC Concepts  ESP Ψ Aegis 5 Amp Wireless System for PowerCab. I will need some items to integrate the  separate PowerCab systems on the two layouts, so this might be the way forward.

At £500 it sounds expensive, but I like the idea of going "Wireless" but retaining the Powercab.

I have started a tread on the subject in the DCC controls section here on RMWeb, but the only reply so far has been someone moaning about the price!.

Hopefully I can talk to DCC about the system at the Great Electric Show in a couple of weeks.

Meanwhile Kadee coupling fitting to rolling stock continues....

Happy Modelling!

Paul