kitpw

I've updated my drawing of the horsebox underframe to show the approx 1.5 degree tilt on the vacuum cylinder when in the "brake on" position.  The pivot point is guessed at about 1" or so below the vehicle floor.

Kit PW

5 hours ago, magmouse said:

you can see the cylinder position

I notice that in several photos of various vehicles of the Dean era, the vaccuum cylinder is not vertical which is logical if the cylinder moves and there is no other provision for the radial nature of the movement: the anchorage must be articulated.  I don't think I'll model that! If I've understood it correctly, the "brake off" location of the top of the cyclinder is about level with the underside of the underframe - the drawings from WT seem to show that.  The drawings show the cylinder as vertical and I assume that is in the "brake off" position. If modelled "brake on" then it would be out of vertical - now which to do? I hadn't really thought that through as you have. 

It looks as if there are a few mysteries still to be resolved as far as the provision of handbraking on the horsebox is concerned:  the action of the lever seems to be the opposite of the action of the vac - when the long lever is pushed down, the rods are pushed against the inner swing arms, pushing the h/b side, inner brake blocks against the wheels.  The h/b rods are quite short and I guess didn't buckle, at least not before the braking action was initiated sufficiently to hold the vehicle:  it looks  pretty crude and under-engineered when compared with the rest of the braking arrangement which is rather over-engineered - perhaps that's why it was superseded.  How the h/b system was separated from the vac actuated system is unclear and unless somebody knows the answer, I can't work it out from the drawings and photo references I have. At least now I'm clearer about the vacuum itself - althought I thought I understood it, I had a nagging feeling that maybe I hadn't which is disconcerting and the references on the web are all about centre plunger type vacuum cylinders.

Thanks again for your input on this rather abstruse subject!

Kit PW

Thanks for your response Nick, very helpful.  I do have vol 1 of Russell and read the description of the Dean brake action (cylinder moves rather than piston): your confirmation of which way is "on" and which way is "off" is critical to whether the linkages get pulled, which they should, or pushed, which they shouldn't - so particular thanks for that. So far so good!  But yes, the horse box (famous No 88) does appear to have a handbrake.  Although Russell (vol 1 again) has a good side view of the 'box (fig 52, page 49), it's not the handbrake side but you can just make out the h/b links to the inner swing arms from the photo.  The white metal casting you've pictured above is also very helpful as it shows the general arrangement in 3D - essentially the same as the Slater's version on their clerestory carriages, one of which I have. It confirms that the cranks are a) a pair and b) not T shaped, which I thought was the case but not certain.  The difference arises with the little crank arms which are attached to the cylinder and actuate the braking - on the Slater's coach, there is a slotted radius piece - I call them quadrants but I don't know if that's the correct term - which is the same as the illustration of the Dean brake in Russell.  That doesn't show up under 'box No 88.  Are they something to do with there being a handbrake, allowing the handbrake to move the brake linkages when the cylinder doesn't move? If that is the case, why isn't there something like that under No 88?  Or maybe there is - the Russell photo isn't quite clear enough (or my eyes too dim) to make it out but it looks like a straight version of the quadrant on the side of the cylinder...or maybe not!  

I stripped down the 'box underframe this morning as, apart from the brake rack/guard, soldering is completed and it needs (a good deal of) cleaning up and priming. The stripped down u/f is below.  The pillars and struts come from the illustrations in Russell vol 1 (page 46) as I don't see how the thing could work without them but are historically a bit "dubious" for the horsebox:  the rest is from the drawings I referenced on Western Thunder.

Kit PW

There has been discussion/clarification on RMweb in the past of what Dean era vacuum brake cylinders (as fitted to vans, horseboxes etc) looked like and how they worked. The "Dean dustbin" seems to be the particular item I'm interested in where, as far as I can make out, the whole cylinder moves rather than a plunger moving in and out of a fixed cylinder.  The links to illustrations in one thread looked hopeful but are broken and web searches under "Dean dustbin" takes me to waste collection in the Forest of Dean - well, it would wouldn't it?  Any information would be very helpful - having sweated over the arrangement (and fabrication) of outside linked clasp brakes on a horsebox, it would be a pity to end up with the wrong vacuum cylinder doing the wrong thing - worst of all, pushing when it should be pulling the brake linkages.

https://www.componentshop.co.uk/chg1/super-thin-wires.html

Teflon coated 7 strand copper - 0.28mm.  I've used it for 7mm scale signal lighting supply where two insulated wires are set in the same kerf in the signal post.  It seems to solder easily:  the insulation can be removed with care using a scalpel (scraping) or simply burnt away with the tip of the soldering iron.  

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

For your amusement, a piece of late-Victorian photoshoppery

....thankyou. Wonderful! I shall treasure it.  😄

@Compound2632's photo of the Headstone Viaduct (built 1863) in Monsal Dale reminded me of what art historian Ruskin famously said about it: “there was a rocky valley between Buxton and Bakewell, once upon a time, divine as the Vale of Tempe. The valley is gone, and the gods with it, and now every fool in Buxton can be in Bakewell in half an hour, and every fool in Bakewell at Buxton”.  The viaduct seems to have temporary centering in the end arch and some pins adjacent to the crown.  Now part of a "trail", it is not the gods that have gone but the goods.

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

handrail and bracket bending

This collection of photos of Shildon Works (NE) at various dates is worth visiting - https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co423874/shildon-works-collection-collection-of-photographs if not already familiar reference.  From the collection, this one caught my eye in the context of bending stuff:

Wagon components being manufactured at the North Eastern Railway's Shildon works
Science Museum Group Collection
Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 Licence.

There are a good few photos of wagons being built up from subframe to completion.

18 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Anyone interested in seeing my snaps can find them here - http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/album/1209088

Marvellous pictures of wonderful glass, thanks for posting the link.  It reminded me that having lived in London for rather more than half a century, I've never been inside Southwark Cathedral. 

When I read @Mikkel's original post about the Newbury tea room glass, I was immediately reminded of Charles Rennie Mackintosh's Willow Tea Rooms in Glasgow .  If unfamiler to anybody, this link (and many others from Google) will take you there: https://www.mackintoshatthewillow.com/.  A bit over the top for adaption to Farthing's tea room windows but quintessential Art Nouveau decorative glass.  

As an addition to my post above, the V & A's website says this "The National Art Library (at the V & A) holds numerous examples of trade catalogues within its collections. Some items entered the Library during the 19th century, and both current and retrospective examples of trade catalogues have been added to the collections throughout the 20th century."  Which answers my question.  I'll check it out when I'm next in South Ken: there are several different enquiries which might be answered by reference to period trade catalogues.

38 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Why not just design it myself?

I'm probably wrong, but I suspect that the Newbury decorative window glass was probably picked from a catalogue: I don't think there was a decorative glass shop at Swindon!  I've found before when trying to hunt down trade catalogues that there are more from USA on the web than from UK (almost none - I was looking for UK paint colour cards of 1920 last time around). This is an American catalogue for 1914. https://ctgpublishing.com/stained-glass-window-art-of-1910/: it shows what I was hoping might be available from Uk but couldn't find any for the Edwardian period - they'll be there somewhere, maybe the V & A?

On a slightly different tack, the technology is quite interesting - some leaded windows had horizontal steel bars (about 5mm diameter) at regular centres, perhaps two or three per panel, to which the leadwork which holds the glass was attached with small wire ties.  I think some of the glass illustrations up thread show that.

40 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

a crop from a  photo taken at Oxford:

"Take Bovril or take the consequences"... a threat to be taken seriously before embarking on a 4mm version of the leaded light in that building.

58 minutes ago, badeu said:

where I can purchase a running board (preferably brass)

HobbyHolidays (https://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/) will almost certainly have something the right width and length in brass.  The last ones I did, I made up from 0.8mm ply (https://kitronik.co.uk/products/3213-08mm-birch-laser-plywood-600mm-x-400mm-sheet).

8 minutes ago, Schooner said:

and confirm it

• opens a map in a new browser window
• that map is titled MWJR
• it shows a blue squiggle, which might look vaguely familiar, in central-Southern England
• you can look but can't touch - no direct editing possible

It does... ditto, ditto, ditto, in that order.

10 minutes ago, Schooner said:

With a little luck that should open the same map within the ScribbleMaps editor...?

It does... one click on the link.

Well found!  I'll have a closer look later on  (I seem to have un-retired and have a deadline to meet this week).

Kit PW

16 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Below are the three layers overlaid.

It's a cold, wet and thoroughly dismal morning here in London but your post on the further development of Newbury Farthing station building cheered me up a lot - it's always good to see things beng made and made well. Just the inspiration necessary to go and get on with some modeling, so thank you for posting.

The deep reveals to windows and doors will give the facade a proper set of lights and shadows - really worth the effort to get that, it'll make a big difference to the completed building, particularly when seen under roofs, canopies etc.

Kit PW

14 hours ago, simon b said:

pictures of Moorgate station buildings before it was destroyed during ww2

I'm not sure what date you're particularly interested in but it's worth noting that a 3 1/2 year bulding programme at Moorgate was completed in March 1938.  I have no details of of the reconstruction which I believe was mainly concerned with improving interchangability between the different lines using the station. However, I think it's likely that the glazed roofs which may have been similar to Farringdon were removed during the rebuilding or had  already gone before then.  When I was researching the MET a few years ago, I couldn't find much on Moorgate but it was clear that it was much altered over time. 

The best ones I have are "Britain from Above" - https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW011125 and Historic England https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/archive/collections/aerial-photos/record/EAW026318 (1949)  but both dated to 1947. 

There is this on "Disused Stations" http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/moorgate/ (1905 view looking west),

The other references I have are for Farringdon and Aldgate: otherwise just general Met references.

I don't now if these references might help but here they are anyway...

https://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/XJ107471/Moorgate-Street-Station-of-the-Metropolitan-Railway (Original exterior)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorgate_station#/media/File:Insurance_Plan_of_City_of_London_Vol._I;_sheet_23_(BL_150118).tiff (1886)

https://esngblog.com/2017/01/31/odds-and-ends/  plans at different dates.

I have some other Metropolitan Railway references (which I think include Moorgate pre war) on another machine which I will look out (if they are still there) later and pass on.

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

G.T.Andrews was the architect for the bulk of the lines on the southern half of the NER,

As it happens, I was looking for a picture or diagram of so-called 'Euston Trusses' the other day and came across G T Andrews and his work on York's First Station in this article on Victorian Web https://victorianweb.org/art/architecture/andrews/1.html.  There's a photo of the trusses supporting a pair of glazed roofs with raised smoke dispersion at the ridges, each roof with a 40' span overall like the original Euston station (200' x (2 x 40') train shed(s)). [My interest in these roofs may become clearer when I do a post about it on Swan Hill in the next few weeks]. The plainness of his architectural style is what appeals, particularly the buildings where the palette of material is restricted to brickwork with relatively plain slate roof forms over. The plainness is quite characteristic of earlier Victorian "functionalist" architecture - Cubitt's Kings X is another example with only the Italianate clock tower as an embellishment. The glazed truss roof is probably Andrews at his most exuberant, I particurlaly like the small roof between the two 40' span roofs to make a slightly wider station than Euston - maybe because it was junction not a terminus? 

VictorianWeb allow scholarly (!) use of their photos with appropriate credit...

...and his own office is a charming near masterpiece of understatement

(pity about the road sign).

Photos curtesy of VictorianWeb

In spite of having in daily use a large old drawing board designed for a double elephant size sheet...

34 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I knew that! D'oh

...exactly, just what I thought once it was explained.  [The board was given to me together with a T square. I'm right handed but it was twenty or more years before I noticed that it was a left handed T square... D'oh!].

10 hours ago, Schooner said:

404 error this end. For sale no longer?

I guess so.  But you could try https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/railway-junction-diagrams-1915/?ref_=ps_ggl_262275853&cm_mmc=ggl-_-UK_ETA_DSA-_-naa-_-naa  It's the David & Charles reprint.

Kit PW

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

There is something called the Open Railway Map, but it's not clear to me if it can be easily exported and used by others:  https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

Well found Mikkel! Under more information, it says on the website: "OpenRailwayMap is Open Source software and is freely available for download under the GPL version 3."  Not sure what GPL version 3 is but I will look further.  At least it prioritises railways and seems to have closed/dismantled lines as well - including a very obscure shortlived line in east Cornwall (1880s) that ran from Wacker Quay to Tregantle Fort so it looks as if some well informed enthusiasts have been adding data to the map.

Of course, if a new, old UK rail network is developed by private companies, not only will we need a re-constituted Railway Clearing House but a new ABC Rail Guide as well.  Perhaps 1923's grouping will be revisited at +100 years...

56 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I wonder if there is some software where everyone could draw on the same map.

https://data.catchmentbasedapproach.org/maps/131be1ff1498429eacf806f939807f20/about.

National Library of Scotland Historic Maps API

Historical Maps of Great Britain for use in mashups and ArcGIS Online.  Mashups sounds promising.

37 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Perhaps an entry from the RCH junctions book, there could be some carefully contrived links...

...I happened to see these for sale just today https://www.wob.com/en-gb/books/ian-allan-publishing-ltd/pre-grouping-atlas-and-rch-junction-diagrams. 

47 minutes ago, 57xx said:

It looks like the Didcot site have got it wrong as well

I think so. My Atkins is an older edition but the diagram list won't have changed I don't think:  under 'J' it lists Mites and Mite Bs but no Mite Ds.

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'd have to find out the page count of the copy I occasionally borrow!

the 2013 edition (about 530 pages) available on eBay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304729760126 priced at £75.  OR, on Abe Books, you can get the edition that I have, all of 230 pages, delivered from LowKey Books, Sumas USA for £357.22 (+ delivery £59.88): no rush, I guess they'll have it in stock for some time yet.