metijg

I was thinking about building a small layout, mainly as a test bench to learn how to do a few things (pour water, scratch build etc) in both 009 and fine scale. The plan is below and I'd love to to have the RMWeb input! The inspiration is a small salt mine I visited recently which had a small footprint outside but was massive inside. It was also build around a river as I'm trying to depict. Working from top right, the narrow gauge would emerge from the mine entrance and cross the river on a wooden bridge. The trucks would have access to an open drop to tip spoil, which would probably only be scenic as the point would be difficult to motorise on the bridge. The track then loops round in front of low relief mine working building, which have arched access for trucks to be reverse shunted into. The full trucks could be shunted in, back to the fiddle yard and empties would come back out. These connection back to the fiddle yard is through a continuous cover of the buildings that would also span the river. At the bottom the narrow gauge would go to a wharf next to the standard gauge and ideally the wagons would actually tip, but this may be out of my skill level! It would then cross the road as the end of a siding and then through the scenic break through some cover. The standard gauge would have a run around loop for movement and a few sidings in the fiddle yard The low-relief building at the back provide depth, and hide the river from obviously starting from a backscene, while the scenic break on the right side is ensured by the road bridge. Thoughts? Thanks!

It made it through the airport in a suitcase without being blown up! Which was nice...! The narrow gauge turning triangle was wired to have electrical redundancy with the points powered from both ends to avoid running problems. Surface motors change the points by moving rods and are powered from the CDU in the box-file signal box. The siding on the left is the only part of the Narrow Gauge that can be isolated, but as we only have one 009 loco i dont think it will be a problem. The DPDT switch was wired to the right hand side and isolated from the rest of the triangle. The bottom two points actuate from one switch and the top of the triangle from another, to be seen if this is the best way to have it. Running is pretty reliable, but can be improved with a bit of cleaning. The scenic materials were mostly things that i found around the house, kids play sand, dried and sieved soil stuck together with PVA glue and paint onto a base of insulation polystyrene material . After a bit of experimentation, static grass was made to stand-up using a balloon rubbed on hair and the hoover. The joints between sections still need tidying up, as do the points, which need ballasting. The left hand side was made to be a bit overgrown and the right more industrial. Removable covers were put over the point motors and rodding in case of tweaking. The shed was a lovely kit from Nock and the crane from Ratio, both were incredibly satisfying to make after years without modelling. The main building was an experiment with Skaledale from Hornby. The slate is Backmann packs The standard gauge track plan had to be altered to have a parallel line next to the narrow gauge, as it was impossible to fit with the original track plan. I was skeptical at first, but in the end i think it adds interest and looks a bit different. To make it work electrically the whole siding was soldered together and the point also wired to be live on all sides. An additional siding was also added at the bottom. Big weekend!

One of the 3 coaches is 25 quid on Amazon at the moment! Is it too good to be true?

@Hilux5972 I've got some follow up questions...! I see both corridor and non-corridor coaches, with a slight difference in price (a fiver for a corridor!) is either more fitting? Can they be mixed in one train? Thanks!

I felt compelled to buy something from the centenary range and plumped for this one as it seems to be the most 'special' single train that i could actually run within the normal context of the layout. The die-cast especially was a defining feature, plus it looks magnificent. LMS is a bit out of my current stable - can anyone suggest which carriages would best fit the model?

I think i have the answers to the problems that i have invented..!! Separate points 9 to individual control so that the middle and bottom lines can be isolated / electrified independently Add an extra siding next to points 10, which can be electrified by opening the newly separated points 9 Add an insulator after points 8 so that the section next to it is only electrified through points 6, plus add a feed at points 6

Nothing is permanent yet and modifications can still be made. I think I'm sold on the additional siding on the bottom right and someway of isolating the bottom siding so that a train can be parked there and another change from the Track 2 to 1 via the middle route. Jury is still out on modifying the station area. Signals and uncoupling are my next targets to get right before really hard-wiring everything

Surfing the wave of a functioning layout to look at the 'nice to haves' ... Currently trains can be parked in the sidings or the lower space between points 9 and 10, but there are a couple of glitches that prevent more flexibility: Between points 8 - 6. It would be nice to have a train waiting at the platform while another could shunt out of the sidings onto track 2, however this is currently impossible as the LH Point 8 and RH point 6 means that the track between them is always live. If this was isolated would the power be interlocked with points 6? It would make sense but adds complexity and would break the continues loop of current. Is this worth it? Between points 8 - 10. Currently, if there is a train parked between points 9 and 10, on the lower route, another train can't run from 8 to 10 on the middle route as both points 9 are linked and to set the route for the middle would also power the parked train from behind. I could isolate the lower route just after points 9 and link a power source to points 10? Additional siding from points 10 parallel to the bottom of the board, which would give a refuge for a loco and allow an exchange of carriages or wagons. Would it bring any useful operational benefit? Maybe overthinking this

What a difference a Jigsaw and a pair of Xuron cutters makes! After the frustration of last time we shifted tactics: Locate point motors directly onto the track rather than going through the board, by Jigsawing holes big enough for the whole motor. Massive win in terms of ease of installation and having the perfect actuation and electrical contact. Easily worth the small loss of credibility for not doing things the hard wayl! Goodbye Hornby, hello Peco! I'm still disappointed by this as Hornby was the company of my childhood, but the wastage rate of Hornby points due to the spring popping out was too high. Goodbye settrack, hello streamline points! Where space allows we moved to bigger radius points. Fettling tight radius curves by cutting settrack rather than using flexitrack that always kinked into first radius - This is still a work in progress somehow The results speak for themselves - Petty reliable operation for most trains (the dropped Mallard is still being weird and the 0-6-0 is a bit temperamental) and all point motors working after only a few hours of installation. The satisfaction derived from driving a loco out of the sidings, around both loops and back home was a great Christmas present. One year exactly since the first bodge job on the back of a door and the Woods Railroad company is finally a going concern!!

Relevant photographic inspiration for the scenic development of slate transshipment, which is starting....now! Talyllyn from the side Detailed site on slate quarrying Minffordd yard on the ffestiniog

All done! I went through some pain and experimentation (see here), but it works well. The only thing is to think about how to integrate the DPDT into the switch panel so that it is intuitive to use and doesn't short all the time..

Following some trial and error the track plan for the 009 terminus became a reversing triangle with some small siding capability. The point actuation is by buried Peco surface point motors and it was designed to break up into 4 bits with all of the pointwork on the single middle section. Hopefully Its an operationally fun take on Twyn wharf The base was 2 x 10 mm insulation material glued together. The track was all Peco settrack, other than a bit of flexi for one side of the triangle to give a bit of a wobble to one side and avoid too much straightness. I originally planned to have Y at the top end, but as it was electrofrog it added some complication so i reverted to asymmetric RH - LH points only. One corner was isolated to prevent shorting and the power fed through a DPDT switch. The remaining track was wired with a huge amount of redundancy as the electrical contact at the points was found to be a bit suspect. Either way, for something so simple this took an inordinate amount of time, but somehow the result seemed more precise than the OO loop where every position was a compromise.

Ok! I'll try a test tonight

I've been using very find sand to build the ground around a 009 yard to try and recreate the photo below from the Talyllyn. The sand went in very nicely and i coloured the PVA as it was applied to give a base colour, but the intention was always to then add a layer of paint on top. However, once dry i wasn't sure...! The natural variation of the sand and the spread of the paint gave some interesting variations which would be lost with a coat of paint. However, without the paint it feels a touch too grainy for the scale. You see dilemma? I made a test piece to try different colours and thickness of paints and it soaks in very nicely so that there are no brush strokes, but it becomes very one-colour. I'd love a second option, paint or not? or even better a magic technique that will keep the look but make it feel a touch more in-scale. Thanks!

Many thanks for the support! Luckily it's not too late for anything and i had a good crack at screwing it all up and starting again at the weekend.. The positives: I replaced the points mentioned in some of the comments with Hornby express points (i choose these over Peco points to maintain the Settrack spacing etc.) and it works like a dream. They are lovely looking things and even the point motors are a doddle as they are hanging from the track in the foam so they are perfectly positioned. To be honest i may cut similar sized holes in the base board as this direct alignment makes everything so simple (picture) I was given some Backmann wagons to go with a Backmann loco and the whole shabbang looked so good and it negotiated everything at full speed! They really are wonderful models (picture). Running this train showed how versatile the track layout is though, there is a huge amount of variation to be had and adjusting the points in time is a brain teaser in itself. I'm very happy we have something good. The wiring continues to perform, even though we turned the board over a few times. I'm unhealthily proud of the box file, so I've put a picture of the inside below as well! Two more trestles were added underneath so that the slight dip in the middle has gone The negatives: Sadly the negatives impact more than the positives.. The Hornby Mallard and 0-6-0 pannier cannot negotiate a facing standard settrack point without derailing and the remaining crossover is impossible. The Mallard front bogey goes the wrong way and the middle wheels of the 0-6-0 hit the frog. Happily we now have a complete express point / non facing point route so they can run, but its frustrating. The curved points on the left are pretty temperamental as well. I question if it's the track or the trains at this point. The most time-consuming, annoying, makes you my want to stop it all, thing was the $%^&* point motors! I had a good system of drilling through pilot holes for alignment and the first one went in like a dream, but it was just a false dawn. The pin of the peco point motors is just a smidge bigger than the hole in a Hornby point and the small plastic bit that holds the moving rails together just popped off as the pin came through, followed in quick succession by the spring! While i'm sure a better man could repair them seamlessly, my efforts didn't work. Before i realized what had happened i had destroyed 2 perfectly good LH points. The final part is that one of the boards (we have a sandwich that reflects the evolution of the woodwork) has warped away, so that the siding points are all inaccessible from the bottom. The top board is a very nice piece of wood, so perfectly flat but the original scavenged piece has gone crazy. End result - much swearing, tea and little progress!!! Just out of curiosity I'm going to try peco settrack points, while i dont think they'll change the frog-shock much, they should at least be compatible with the point motors. Any suggestions what i can do with spring-less Hornby points, will they take them back and refurbish them? oh - while i'm at it: How do you trim down the point motor pin? That thing must be made of reinforced kryptonite-titanium...!

Wow! Thanks for your comments. I’m amazed how many levels the hobby has. When we put the track down on a temporary basis it seemed so easy and everything worked, if with a little help. As we have gone further we have got more critical and less accepting of problems. The pictures are already the third re-start as I realised mistakes can only be fixed by design. Its raining this weekend, so will put some hours in and see how it goes, i’ll follow the advice you’ve given many thanks!

First reflections from being back in the hobby: Railway modelling rewards patience and perfection! Problem - The back to back points at the interface of the main lines and the station just didn't work for the majority of the stock. This interface is crucial for the story, as trains that are running on the left hand side should cross here to access the station and it would be a killer to know that trains would always derail here. Solution - Ordered an Hornby LH express point (R 8077) and the matching small radius half turn (R628) to smooth the frog-shock as a train crosses the junction. This helped, but didn't eliminate the problem, so an old Peco point was cleaned and put into service on the other side of it (Picture). This solved the problem, but opened up a Pandora's box of other problems! Firstly by going with a Streamline point the set-track geometry was thrown out of kilter and the electrofrog caused a huge amount of problems for a while, until i got my head around the electrical implications. Problem - Point motors. Enough said Solution - None found and still some points are unpowered Problem - Wiring all over the place, especially the common power and earth to and from point motors Solution - Box file signal box containing the CDU and connections to the Peco levers (picture) Problem - Flat track that wouldn't fit the scenic back-story Solution - Woodland scenic risers. Excellent and so easy to use! (picture) Overall result is better, but not perfect...! Possible next steps: Replace standard points with the Hornby express points, which seem like a great product and still conform to the settrack geometry, although not everyone agrees and tidy up the track interfaces and flexi-track curves.

After some trial and error and discussion on the forums i finalised a track plan with two inspirations, Bredon for the 00 part and Tywn wharf for the 009 part. 00 part While the inspiration comes from Bredon, it became clear that the single track on the left ruins the two track fun that the kids wanted, so the siding was turned into a return loop. The idea of a fiddle siding at the back didn't cut much ice either, everyone involved wants to run trains, not piddle around with them! The back story is now this: The double line on the right is the main line and will be modelled as such with some banking and eventually signals based on left-hand running The interior return on the left is a branch-line with generally lower grade track furniture The exterior return on the left is an private industrial line which will look the part with sunken track etc. The station is a single platform so that trains can arrive from the mainline, run-around and leave again on the other line Branchline services could also leave from the main platform The industrial line would have a life of it's own through the sidings at the bottom and would either exit by reversing up the branch or getting onto the left-hand track further up the line In reality trains will just do laps, but it's nice to dream..! For the kids there are interesting running puzzles, how to change running trains from the inside loop to the outside one without stopping either etc. The sidings and multiple cross-overs provide interest and the opportunity for crashes! 009 The thinking is less developed here, but it's clear that this will be the finer modelling with a shuttle train that winds it's way from a high point on the top left to the wharf at the station. The original Twyn wharf trackplan was very simple with wagon turntables and manual / gravity manipulation of the trucks, which then evolved to have a run-around loop and other features as it transitioned from slate to passengers. For my purposes i will take a hybrid of the different evolutions to have something that is fun and possible to run without any hand-of-god intervention as 009 is too fiddly for the younger generation to re-rail. The challenge is how to gain enough height to cross the 00 lines and where to do it. General The back left will be the highest point and the scenery will be built to fit around the 009 track-bed. As a result there needs to be some scenic features to make things work, mainly some water to explain the gradients and also road access to the station. Both of those two things are parked in the thinkaboutitlater box.. The boards are home made from materials lying around with a pine ply top that looks pretty warp free and are 6' x 4' give or take The location for the layout is at generation +1's house (I'm generation 0 obviously..) so some work will be done off-board by me, some will be done by generation +1, some will be done together during visits and the whole lot will be tested to destruction when generation -1 get to run the trains! The point of this blog is to share progress with all the interested parties, i hope anyone reading enjoys as well!

Thanks for your help. Working prototype now cluttering up the living room!

I’ve got a soft spot for Hornby as a company and it colours my thinking.. Forgetting streamline, you think that Peco settack is superior to Hornby express? Regardless of the smaller radius? Interesting stuff..

The prime candidate is the 0-6-0 pannier tank. It’s middle wheel seems to hit the frog like it’s a brick wall. The Hornby Mallard was running very nicely on everything until dropped, now there seems to be some interference between the front bogie and the body, but I don’t think that’s the track.

RMWeb has been a fountain of knowledge so far and I have another question for you all. After a few iterations of track layout I have got a plan that I'm happy with, but it's not...well...perfect! Some point combination are almost impossible to navigate with certain trains and there are too many derailments. Unfortunately, I'm obliged to stay within the Hornby / Settrack paradigm so would like to know what is the better option for trouble free running: Upgrade the points from Hornby standard to Hornby Express points (this will be challenge from a space perspective but could be done with some compromises) or Straight swap the Hornby points for Peco Settrack. It's a bit of an outlay, so I'd like to make the right choice.. Thanks again in advance! Tim

Ok. It's taken me a while but I've got there..! The outside rail isn't isolated and so, even when the points are switched, you have a short. Thanks! Will go and buy a DPDT switch..

I really appreciate the replies, I understand the theory, but I still can't find the reason why the drawings below don't work. I'm being both dense and persistant, it's not an attractive combination and I apologise..! Please help - I can't see a moment when the two power sources are not kept independent of each other by closed points. Thanks!

Thanks for the reply Nigelcliffe, and I know this is the common wisdom and that my theory is not correct, as it doesn't work, but I still can't see why! If the train travels from 1 to 3, then it is under the motive power from the bottom and the other connection is isolated by point 3. When points 2 and 3 are thrown to be aligned, then the motive power is from the top and the points isolate it from the power connection at the bottom. Once the train is the far side of points 3 and they are thrown it is isolated from the power at the top, and assuming point 1 is also moved is now receiving power from the bottom. I don't see a moment where the two power sources conflict as they are also isolated from each other by points. There would be moment when the train direction is reversed without the controller being reversed, but I don't see why that causes a problem. Thanks again..