Tobbes

Thanks so much Phil - I'll see what comes closest - albeit full width, not narrow. Rule 1!

Thanks @Mallard60022

Here's what I've been basing it on - am I interpreting it wrongly?

Many thanks as ever,

Toby

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I've finally found the Summer 1960 CWN Appendix. Lo and behold, Set 890 is listed as a BR(S) Green Mk 1 set with a Pullman Buffet, marshalled BSK-SO-SO-SO-SO-SO-Pull Buffet-CK-CK-SK-BSK for Waterloo - Southampton Docks traffic. (I was a bit surprised that marine traffic would have so little first accomodation, but every day is school day.)

Can I just check that the Pullman Buffet would be one of the six discussed here? And does anyone have a picture of their finished model?

Many thanks!

Toby

Excellent, many thanks melmoth.

Thanks, very helpful. Here's the coach I've got - marked as S1925.

I've just checked Longworth and he records M1925 becoming S69022 in 1974 (M1932 became S69023, M1935 became S69024 and M1939 became S60925 also all in 1974), when I assume they must have been in Blue/Grey.

So, I'm not quite sure where this had come from or why the previous owner modelled it this way. Oh well, an interesting 'might have been' - I'll run it with a pair of RFOs (S9 and an RFO masquerading as a Dia 56 RSO). Rule 1 and all of that!

Sorry to raise this thread up from the deep, but I was wondering if anyone had a Bachmann reference number for BR(S) Green RU restaurant cars please? I have a second hand one which claims it is 39-103, but this appears to be a maroon version of the same coach. I've almost never seen a Bachmann RU in Green- when I did see one, I snaffled it, but it doesn't appear to be a repaint.

Many thanks

Toby

Thanks @PortlandStone

For those who are interested, here's my current understanding of what happened at Axminster on Fri/Sat/Sun 12/13/14 Aug 60. Some obvious Rule 1s - most obviously the inclusion of the Devon Belle - but also some railtours that happened at other times (thanks to Six Bells Junction) and the ballast train that we've discussed above which actually ran on 10 Apr 60 in for the sake of it.

The key sources. in addition to 'From Devon to Dorset' have been the 1960 WTT, the 1959 and 1961 CWNs with Hugh Longworth's excellent books on pregrouping and Mk 1s, and the SrEMG coaching sets database, along with the Xpress Books "District Controller" series for the loco diagrams. And the wonderful 'Southwestern Railwayman' that @Mallard60022 mentions above.

This has led to some guesswork - if someone has the 1960 CWN, I'd be enormously grateful.

What is most surprising to me is the sheer amount of rolling stock that was involved (and how little it was used on an annual basis) - very few sets appear on the layout twice in the course of a day. Oh, and the pratfalls of picking a date an then realising that the AWS fitting and speedo fitting for the MNs was on going (along with replacing the early emblem with the late) and the rebuilding of the WC/BBs (again with all four AWS/Speedo combinations) and the additional joy of high / low rave tenders being shuffled about amongst the non-rebuilt WC/BBs. (I've been compiling a gazateer if anyone's interested).

Hope this is interesting - and I'd be delighted for corrections!

Axminster Public.xlsx

54 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Tobbes I have sent you a PM. If you live anywhere near Retford or Donny this is where the Book resides.

The book with stuff about the Lyme Branch is South West Railwayman by Donald King. 

He was a Porter then Porter Signalman at Lyme and then a relief Signalman in the area. 

50 pages of the book are about Lyme. 

Keith et al, there is a pic of an Ivatt Tank on a full GOODS! Blows me never seeing a pic, right out of the Bay then!

Loads of lovely anecdotes and useful pics.

I'm offering it to loan to Tobbes and then if anyone would like to borrow it then just ask.

It is a 1983 Book so maybe lost forever. I got mine from a Charity Shop.

I am sure you all have decent Books but I'll find some more and mention them if they have useful Pictures.

Finally, having been rude about the Community Layout, the existing/late(?) Lyme Regis Exhibition Layout is/was EM I think, but I think the owner may have recently passed?

Worth asking around about it? Special Interests...Southern section?

Sincerely

Phil  

PM replied - most grateful, Phil. I do have a copy which is, er, "in a safe place" so will keep looking for it. :)

10 minutes ago, Beacon said:

I'm not sure if any of you are aware but if you are on Facebook then via this link you can see details of a community layout based in Axminster focused on the Axminster to Lyme branch: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61551662745914

If you're not on Facebook, then you can read a bit about it here: https://www.bridportnews.co.uk/news/23689658.model-railway-built-axminster-lyme-regis-line/

and here:

https://www.midweekherald.co.uk/news/23984775.axminster-celebrates-re-opening-forgotten-railwa

Many thanks! I like the look of the station building... I presume it's a scratchbuilt item? Many congratulations to the modeller if so!

I was thinking about the Royal Wessex Set after reading the excellent Blood and Custard article about it. It says that the coaches were spare at Bournemouth on Sundays - were they ever used for excursions on Sundays when otherwise not required? One could imagine a nice day out in Padstow from Bournemouth of a summer Sunday...

3 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

I reckon an S15 would have collected the Wagons from Axminster?

 

Those are wonderful pictures, especially the mixed Train with Guard's van too!

The only thing I can add is that there was a local Furniture maker I think, that needed an occasional Van for outbounds. That little story in one of my books.

P

Forgive me, @Mallard60022 - what books are these?

2 hours ago, Stoke West said:

They dont look like Dogfish plus would they be over the axle weight , are they Herrings ? Woolworths would have had a van once a week probaly more in the summer as did Seaton

Thanks, that's very helpful - I don't know anything about engineering wagons. Are Herrings available in OO RTR?

A final thought on the ballast train which Roger Joanes recorded on Sunday 10 April 1960 - I'm wondering what time of day it ran. I've only got the 1960 Summer WTT, but even then, the first train on the branch that day was a 10.25 am ex-Lyme; it seems unlikely that in the off-season the Sunday service started earlier than this.

Ergo, the obvious conclusion is that the ballast train was worked up the line before the public service started, but on what looks like a cloudy (& chilly, for April!) day, the shadows are non-existent and therefore not helpful in placing the timing of the photos.

If this is correct, then the presumption must be that the outgoing branch engine simply stayed on the line on the Saturday night, and returned to EJ on the Sunday when the ballast train duties had been complete. I'm left wondering if a single Radial could have handled the seven empties alone once the ballast had been dropped?

Mr Joanes' picture from the brakevan suggests to me that the first six hoppers had dumped their load onto the line as the train made its way to Lyme, leaving only the seventh full - which, if true perhaps suggests that this was an early start to dump all the ballast before the public service started, assuming of course that there wasn't an engineering possession of the line all day on the 10th of April 1960. If, hypothetically, the engines had left in the 6.15 am LE path that the weekday Goods had, they would have had more than three hours to drop ballast and get up to Lyme ahead of the public service.

Moreover, if a single Radial could have handled seven empty hoppers back to Axminster, then the outgoing Radial could have taken them down to Axminster solo and then potentially back to EJ.

As ever with this, more questions raised than answered - any thoughts gratefully received.

1 hour ago, melmoth said:

 

There was a coal merchant in the yard at Lyme, and the local branch of Boots received a van of goods each week. Other businesses in the town would probably have supplied in a similar manner. IIRC, in one of Derek Phillips's books there's a photo of a LSWR Road Van in BR days at Lyme or Axminster, possibly for use as the branch brake van.

In the summer 1960 timetable there was a weekday path at 7.29 am ex-Axminster for a goods train to Lyme using the branch engine which had run down light (though presumably bringing empties as required?) - the LE path left Lyme at 6.15 am, giving the branch engine plenty of time (almost an hour) to shunt Axminster and form up whatever goods traffic was bound for Lyme. However, pictures of this all goods are rare, which could indicate it ran rarely or simply that there was limited interest in it.

The only picture I've seen of a pure Goods rather than mixed train on the branch comes from Roger Joanes's Flickr feed (thank-you, Roger) on Friday 8 April 1960:

Additionally, the weekday 8.11 am ex-Lyme and the balancing 8.43 am ex-Axminster were mixed in 1960, though how frequently it ran mixed isn't exactly clear today. Fortunately, Mr Joanes has a picture of the mixed on its way to Axminster on 8 April 1960:

And another from the footplate on (Monday) 5 Sept 1960:

Finally, there were PW trains on the branch as well, which Mr Joanes captured this beauty on (Sunday) 10 April 1960:

I'd be grateful for help on what these hoppers are - I thought that they were Dogfish, but that's just a guess.

Mr Joanes also captured the two Radials have a drink at Lyme the same day:

So, we're indebted to Mr Joanes for pointing his camera at non-passenger workings on the Lyme Regis branch that would otherwise probably live on only in the memory of those who operated them.

An answer to where the 3L set came from in the summer of 1960 appears to be "it depended on when in that summer you are talking about?".

On Friday 15th of July 1960, the 3L was berthed at Axminster, but it isn't clear where it had come from (or indeed, when).

On Friday 22nd of July 1960, the 3L was the rear porttion of the 1.10 pm Exeter Central - Salisbury, arriving at 2.03 pm; it was presumably berthed in the goods yard (for want of anywhere else to put it) before going up to Lyme as the 7.48pm.

From the following week (27 Jul 60) through to nearly the end of the summer timetable (31 Aug 60), this moved from Fridays to Wednesdays. On these Wednesdays, the 3L set formed the rear portion of the 11.18 am Templecombe to Exeter Central, arriving at Axminster at 12.40 pm. This too was presumably shunted into the goods yard at Axminster before being run up the branch as the 7.48 pm ex-Axminster, and then being stabled at Lyme Regis until it was needed on Saturday for the 9.00 am to Axminster / Waterloo. 

In each case, to make up for the unbalanced workings, there was a LE path from Lyme to Axminster dep Lyme at 7.18 pm, arr Axminster 7.38 pm, leaving just 10 minutes to cross to the Goods Yard, collect the coaches, and shuffle back across the points to the platform before departure for Lyme. It appears that the 7.35 pm Chard Junction - Exeter Central train would have occupied the Dn platform from 7.42 pm - 7. 53 pm, so either the 3L was already in the branch bay, or it would have had to have been held well back on the platform to allow a propelling move into the Dn Platform and then for the Radial plus the 3L set to cross to the Up platform before accessing the branch. One for further investigation!

On 15/05/2022 at 22:57, pH said:

The down line connection was only for through trains, and I don’t know how many of them there were.

Coming to this late, my apologies, @pH.

The down side connection to the branch at Axminster was an early casualty after opening to Lyme Regis in 1903: it was taken out of use in September 1915 and removed shortly thereafter for simple operational reasons. The connection itself was tight and steep, and required stopping on the (tight, steep) curve to change the points to allow access to the branch (the implication was that there was a ground frame there, but I've never seen a picture), and then to stop again on the 1-in-40 to reset the points before heading for Lyme. Much easier to shunt across to the branch side and use the flyover, even if the actual track layout could've been much better designed.

On 16/05/2022 at 00:12, phil_sutters said:

Dad's spotting log, on Saturday 3.9.1960, records 30582 and 30583 at Lyme Regis on the 9 a.m. to Waterloo. The Radials only worked the train to Axminster. Possibly the through trains or through carriages were Summer Saturdays only. Looking at the map in the original post, that train would have to use the lower line and cross over to the up mainline before reaching the station. Coming off the down main would have been more straight forward.

Here are his photos of the branch.

 

 

Fabulous pictures, @phil_sutters

My understanding so far from doing a bit of research for a future Axminster model (someday!) is that the 9.00 am ex-Lyme on Summer Saturdays in 1960 was formed SK-2W-3L, with the 2W being the branch set (BCK (Maunsell Dia 2401) -  SO (Maunsell Dia 2005)), and the SK loose (and optional: it didn't run on 13 Aug 60, for instance).

The 3L sets - could be Mk 1s (including in CLC in 1960) were more usually Bullied 3Ls from either the 59' or 64' groups - were the morning through coaches on Summer Saturdays to Waterloo, and had arrived at Lyme the previous evening as the 7.48pm from Axminster (though I'm still trying to work out how they got to Axminster on Friday.)

Five or six coaches required double-headed Radials, and as Saturday was locomotive changeover day (the branch loco was out-stationed at Lyme for a week at a time), Exmouth Junction would despatch the incoming Radial LE from EJ at 7.05 am, arrriving at Axminster at 7.55 am, where it would double head the 8.10 am to Lyme (Adams Superpower for only a BCK-SO 2W pair!) to provide both engines to take the 9.00 am ex-Lyme your Dad observed. The 9.00 am ex-Lyme arrived Axminster at 9.21 am, and the 3L set would be attached to the 8.30 am Exeter Central - Waterloo (arr Axminster 9.24 am, dep 9.34 am).  

There were also five through coaches to Lyme in the afternoon off the 10.45 am ex-Waterloo to Axminster and Seaton Junction as @Mallard60022 described above. This train arrived at Axminster at 1.34 pm, departing for Seaton Junction at 1.39 pm, meaning some sharp shunting to get these coaches off the Dn Main before the 11.00 am 'ACE' passed Axminster at 1.50pm, especially as the Up platform was occupied from 1.35 pm to 1.37 pm by the 11.03 am Plymouth North Road - Brighton service. This would depart Axminster at 1.55 pm, arriving Lyme at 2.16 pm.

This five set (5H) could be pure Bulleid (BSK (Dia 2123)-SK (Dia 2019)-CK (Dia 2318)-SK (Dia 2019)-BSK (Dia 2123)) or in 1960, a Mk 1 / Bulleid mix (BSK (Mk 1 Dia 181)-SK (Bulleid Dia 2019)-CK (Mk 1 Dia 126)-SK (Bulleid Dia 2019)-BSK (Mk 1 Dia 181)), including the Mk 1s in CLC and the Bulleid SKs in BR(S) Green.

This 5H set would then return from Lyme with double-headed Radials as the 3.05 pm to Axminster (arr 3.26 pm), and would be propelled on to the rear of the 12.45 pm ex-Torrington 'ACE' which arrived at Axminster at 3.31pm, departing for Waterloo at 3.39pm; the Radial that had been on the branch all week would then return almost immediately to EJ LE at 3.50pm.

Oddly, therefore as the 10.45am ex-Waterloo was not badged as an 'ACE' Lyme Regis through coaches appear only to have been an 'ACE' only in the Up direction in the Summer of 1960!

Finally, @phil_sutters, your Dad's photos are from the penultimate Saturday of the Radials double heading on the branch - the 10th of September was the last Saturday of the Summer Timetable in 1960, so I presume that may have played into why he was there on that specific date. 

Apologies for the length, but I thought you may find this of interest.

On 08/01/2024 at 12:03, Mallard60022 said:

Several were Tavern Sets and especially on the ACE. Until '62/'63 and maybe even '64 (can't quite remember without looking). There were even Maunsell Sets in '58 and '59; uncertain about '60 without checking.  

Phil

Thanks very much! Sorry for the delayed response, I've been away with work @Mallard60022.

This is very helpful - so in the Summer 1960 WTT RCO-RKB seems to mean the (modified) Tavern twin sets (Dia 2665 RCO + Dia 2668 RKB)? I need to go back and work out how many sets were used (& therefore whether some / any were Maunsell RCO-RKB-RSO (Dia 2658 RCO - Dia 2659 RKB - Dia 2005 RSO)?

At least with the four Maunsell sets a reasonable appproximation can be made in RTR! Any hints on modelling modifed Tavern sets for those without the skills for the Comet kits gratefully recieved...

On 01/08/2022 at 13:07, Oldddudders said:

Dining facility provision varied widely among routes. So the Southern's West of England route typically offered dining on key trains between Waterloo & Exeter Queen St/Central. A dining set would be detached/attached there. Plenty of all-stations trains on the same route might not get any catering at all, demand barely existing.

Thanks v much @Oldddudders.

Where can I find details for 1960, please?

I've just seen that R40031/31A are on sale on the Hornby website for £36.29 each for those who need them.

https://uk.Hornby.com/catalogue/new-year-sale?langPath=Hornby-uk&filters[in_stock]=true&filters[Clearance]=&filters[Scale]=&filters[Gauge]=&filters[UK Era]=5 Late British Railways 1956-1968&filters[min_price]=0&filters[max_price]=217.79&filters[Brand]=&filters[Motor]=&filters[Pre-Order]=&filters[DCC Status]=&filters[mandatory_filter_by][product_group]=Hornby New year Sale&page_id=141803&sort-by=8&page=1&inputValueChanged=filters[UK Era]

I've just read the whole thing from beginning to end, and I just wanted to say thank you to all for their contributions - fascinating!

On 19/08/2023 at 12:18, Bulleidboy100 said:

 35020 Bibby Line ran with a high rave tender in 1956 (see page 40  of A.J.Fry's  Bulleid Power - The Merchant Navy Class).

I borrowed the as built 35028 Clan Line tender for this picture - hence lining is a different colour.

 

Splendid - every day is school day, very many thanks. It doesn't look bad, either!

Many thanks, @Nick C - are these sides straight replacements for a Dia 2001 RTR SK? I've never tried anything like this, so I was wondering how much of a donor Hornby SK one could use?

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

I have no records of that set passing Seaton Junction around that time.

Phil

Thanks Phil - are these records personal logs?

Very many thanks to all!