Kirby Uncoupler

Has this Salmon wagon been produced to HO scale by mistake, at the factory? 20mm short would about right for 3.5mm scale, and might also explain the short bogies? Can somebody check the width and height please? A factory producing for customers worldwide, would regard HO as the norm, compared to the British 4mm scale. Cheers, Brian.

Hi Tim (M), Yes, I think that's right, and possibly the Standard Class 5? No sooner had it been applied to new designs, then the feature was suddenly dropped, perhaps on grounds of cost? The ones that got a sprung axle, still have it on new stock, they didn't design it out. And people wonder why the later edition 57xx run so well? Shame really, because it was the easiest loco to fully compensate, it only needed a rocking front axle. The new 94xx is so good, it has now been well worth the long wait, but a quicker way would have been a new 94xx body, plonked on to the sprung axle 57xx chassis. As you and many others will know, a 94xx is basically a 57xx with a tapered 2251 (Collett Goods) boiler and bigger water tanks. They ended up with a much heavier loco, so the 57xx lived on, in fact the last were produced after the first 94xx. Cheers, Brian.

Having just escaped from the big bust-up on the red hot Flangeway-Footplate Salmon wagon thread, and with the EU going bonkers, it's a pleasure to arrive on the 94xx thread. My two tanks arrived on Tuesday, but I didn't get around to testing them until Thursday night, oh boy was I in for a pleasant surprise. I have to say the locos are stunning, conveying the heavy look of these brutes, but the icing on the cake was the astonishing sound tracks fitted. For starters, as the loco runs we automatically have the very characteristic spit of the GW vacuum pump, heard more clearly on the prototype when coasting. Luckily we don't get any of that repetitive release of the brakes, like on a Hornby chip, everytime the loco moves off. Trying the various sound buttons, suddenly my first loco stopped running, and refused to move, like a stubborn mule. Thinking I might have a dreaded motor failure, and trying other buttons, it burst back into life, it transpires the no.2 brake function really does work as a handbrake, a kind of "audio-digital brake", is this a first in RTR? I'm old enough (62) to just remember these beasts, my first encounter was at the Paddington buffer stops, when my father and a typically friendly WR crew, hoisted me up the steps into the cab. As a 2 or 3 year old, I was terrified of the noise and heat, plus the inside was on fire! I recall it was short and black, and could just as easily have been a 15xx or a 57xx, but a 94 would be favourite. Well the experience didn't put me off for life, in the following years until I was six, I saw a lot of steam in South Wales, without knowing which class was which at that age. I have ghostly memories of dirty tank locos at Porthcawl, Bridgend and Peterston Sidings, which connected with the Barry line, plus rows of old locos in the scrapyard, alongside the main line at Bridgend Tremains. By the time I was seven, it was all over in that part of the world. Overall, these new models are gorgeous, just one little niggle, the whole chassis has rigid bearings. Mainline Palitoy brought us the flat cab 57xx, Bachmann gave us the later cab version, with a new motor and split axles, then years later they re-invented it with a whole new chassis (WITH A SPRUNG CENTRE AXLE), which was the best of the bunch, so chassis-wise we have gone slightly backwards. Cheers, Brian.

Hi Everyone, That dark inky blue had to go, it was bugging me. I've replaced the blue on my blue-grey example, with Precision Rail Blue, all other colours are untouched. In blue-grey you have to decide whether you want an RB, or a RBR, the grey painted middle kitchen window points towards RBR, as does the black underframe (BR changed from the 1966 brown, back to black around 1978). The supplied interior is an odd mix of original RB style saloon seating, and the later RBR style counter (which is also slightly in the wrong position), but no big deal, no one's gonna see it. Being a lazy tight wad, I retained the printed "Buffet Restaurant" slogans, by rubbing down after painting, but slightly mucked up one side, it would be easier to replace or go over the originals with new transfers, which I had to do with the "kitchen" tags, and for re-numbering. I removed the third end step before repainting, and scraped the roof ribs off with a curved blade, if careful you can leave that unpainted, just rub vertically with fine emery. The solebar has to be repainted in the new blue too. Below, you see how it now matches with Bachmann's blue on a Mk1 and a Mk2F. Now for a bit of showing-off, Hornby's bar counter needs moving to the right slightly, on an original RB there was actually an inner door, to the left of the counter, which lined up with the outer door (clear glass, not grey droplight), for public access. This was done away with, as part of the 1970s RBR rebuild, and the space was taken up by a storage cupboard, and the buffet till was positioned behind this, in what used to be the transverse "lobby". For a bit of fun, as well as shifting my counter, I also lowered it and added the glass display on top. Stan the bar steward(!), has escaped from a pack of Bachmann Blue Pullman crew. In the 60s and 70s spare Pullman crews could appear on normal services, but probably not by the late 70s, I could always paint Stan's lapels white I s'pose? I rounded off the seat tops, and painted them orange, as a token effort of the infamous plastic bucket seats. Orange painted-on curtains to finish off. Cheers, Brian.

I've been discussing the RB interior with Mark54 and Robertcwp off-forum, the bar counter is too long for all periods, towards the saloon should either be the inner "lobby" door (as built), or a raised solid bulkhead with cupboard within (1970s refurb), as explained by Mark. It must have been odd for the public passing through two doors of the originals, rather like an airlock, with the open end of the bar one side? Hornby have modelled the bar counter as a plain extended worktop, perhaps they saw one like this in preservation? It's no big deal, and can be easily added with plasticard, and a splash of paint, this area can be seen from the corridor side. The saloon seating is the original style for RB, for the refurbished RBR you could substitute the infamous orange or white plastic bucket seats, in the same positions, bit like sitting in an eggcup? Perhaps the seats can be carved into the round bucket shape? BK

Attention Fred: 1739 and 1743 were completed by BRCW in July 1961. (Parkin) BK

Yeah, we're getting a bit head-banging, in blue-grey it all hinges on that the middle door (pun), behind the bar. After conversion to RBR, the door window would be painted over in Rail Grey, as per this model, but of course it took years to do the lot. Prior to this (c.1966-77), the inference is that this door still had plain glass, but there would have been various improvement schemes, during the 60s and 70s, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn of some of these windows being obscured prior to refurbishment. I doubt the crews enjoyed being viewed from behind in stations? Many green/maroon and a few blue-grey RBs ran on BR plate bogies (B1/B2?), you could easily swap bogies with another suitable Hornby Mk1 donor, they are just a clip fit. Most, if not all, blue-grey RBs with plate bogies were upgraded to B4/B5 bogies long before refurbishment, Commonwealth fitted stock (as per model) remained unaffected. Some staff toilet windows could change from frosted to opaque. I'd lop off that third end step for blue-grey period too. Oh dear, we're getting complicated again! Cheers, Brian.

Yes, Hornby have prototypically painted over the middle door on the blue-grey, steering it towards "RBR" period (orange bucket seats and curtains anyone?), but the impression of a door remained, and doesn't warrant an entirely different body moulding. If bothered, all it requires is for the door and grab handles to be sliced off (although some kept both, so not essential) with a sharp knife/scalpel (be careful of your fingers). I haven't carried out a coach by coach survey of every single one (i'll leave that to someone else!), but were any of these middle doors welded up, or were most/all just permanently locked out of use? I just like to model what was typical, I usually avoid the odd-ones-out. More credit for the Hornby designers, I only noticed late last night, that they have correctly incorporated very fine external window frames on the body moulding, Mk1 Restaurant Buffets are regarded as "second generation" Mk1s, so carried these frames from new. They are so neatly done, you can barely see them in my dodgy photos above. The body ends have two lower steps at the kitchen end, and three lower steps at the saloon end, generally the vast majority were built like this, although a good friend has shown me a pic of W1644 in works as built, with a full set of steps, including the top one over the gangway, but he suggests this may have been in error, and may have been removed before entering service? Because of the danger of overhead wires, the rest of the fleet would later lose the single third step, and sometimes the second steps too, leaving only the bottom ones, again easy to carve off, but check your chosen number against real photos, there was plenty of variety. The Hornby roof ribs are slightly prominent, but not distractingly so, after carving off most of my Bachmann Mk1 ribs, I might pass on this one? Cheers, Brian.

Hi Phil, Hope the piccies help, the difference between RB and RBR was mainly internal, the bodywork was unaltered. BK

Here are a few quick snaps of the new RBs (Mk1 Restaurant Buffet), taken with a phone camera in poor light. Thank you Mr.Kohler for these lovely and very useful catering cars, along with others, I badgered him to make these at the last Ally Pally show, pointing out how you can use an RB with so many different ranges of coaches, from pre-nat to sometimes even Mk3. He replied "I get the message!", although of course he may have already had this one planned, and up his sleeve? The maroon is a good match for Bachmann's shade either side. The usual shade of 21st century Hornby Rail Blue is just too dark and rather oppressive, I realize Hornby are obliged to match their other coach types, but I think in the near future they will have to be very brave, and substitute a brighter shade of blue, as Bachmann did. We know there is a suggestion that the real Rail Blue was darkened over the years, but it never got this dark. Here's the Hornby blue-grey RB next a Bachmann Mk1 and Mk2F. Finally the SR Green option, with the body off to show the interior. In conclusion, lovely models, should sell very well, the only real negative is that dark Rail Blue shade. Cheers, Brian Kirby

Here's a standard Peco PL-10 point motor, fitted to a right-hand Peco code 75 bullhead point. The solenoid spindle still fits into the centre tie-bar hole, the bullhead point is unaltered, sitting on a sea of air bubbles. The motor is not touching anything solid, apart from the floating point, so operation is very quiet, using a capacitor discharge unit. Notice the furthest fancy Peco fishplate has moved slightly off-centre ( a touch of creep), I think i'll tin one end to secure to the one rail, which will still allow for expansion. I don't think they're tight enough to rely on for conductivity, i'm adding separate power feeds for each section of track. By the way, the Peco bullhead fishplates have round punchings for bolt heads both sides, I checked with a magnifying glass (!), so you can put them on either way around, and sort your nuts out later. I'll leave the tie-bars as they are for now. BK

Yes, i've still got a few knocking around in my bits box, it's what a lot of us used 25-30 years ago. They are extremely neat, and a good snug fit, and being already short for 4mm, they looked the bizzo. Are they still made for anyone else's range? BK

Fair comment, I left "the dog-leg" in place, to maintain the integrity of the frog end, I could have snipped it off when complete, perhaps Peco should have moulded a complete and separate sleeper on the angle? All single points (not crossovers) have to lead on to angled plain sleepers at some stage, most angled sleepers seem whole in photos, but interlaced. I would hesitate to declare that none were like this, but perhaps it isn't typical of most situations? Variations are endless, not to mention straight timbers, angled timbers, and points with interlaced plain track sleepers, instead of long timbers. This rebuild is just a bastardized bodge, to turn the ready-made product into something more representational. When joining Peco bullhead-to-bullhead, you can use their lovely SL-114 fishplates, complete with nuts and bolts etched-on, these represent the real heavy-duty fishplates with bottom flanges, although of course the real things come in two halves, or you can use C&L, or similar. To join Peco code 75 bullhead-to- 75 flat bottom, you use the regular flat-bottom SL-110 metal, and SL-111 insulated types, nobody noticed that I had cut these in half, to match the bullhead types, otherwise they are far too long in appearance. Now I know you can buy super-dooper expensive and slow-acting point motors, etc., with small holes and linkage through the baseboard, but i've always liked the regular Peco point motors, slotted straight on to the bottom of their points. They give a superb mechanically efficient connection and movement, and more importantly with cushioned track, they can float around whilst still tightly fixed to the point. Yes, you have to cut a large gaping hole, and fill in later with foam or bubble, but powered by a CDU and floating, gives very quiet operation. I was surprised to see the location slots omitted on Peco's recent 75 bullhead points, I managed to clamp one around the outside and glue, but I think I spotted the slots re-appearing on the photos of their new and expected slip points? Cheers, Brian.

Having mentioned it, here's a Peco Code 75 curved point, which happened to be broken, rebuilt to coarse 18.83mm gauge, using ply timbers, homemade metal checkrails, and Peco pandrol clips. In this case, the point is dismantled, and only the metal parts are re-used. It needs a new tie-bar to complete. Don't buy new points to do this, but if you are changing from OO to 18.83mm or 18.2 mm gauges, this saves things being wasted, even if they are only used in a fiddle yard. Cheers, Brian.

While i'm here, let me just explain about this rebuilt Peco point. I know from bitter experience in the 1980s, that building your own points in flat-bottom from plain rail, is hard work, taking far longer to grind off those bottom angles, when making frogs and point blades, doubtless these days you can buy the parts ready made? The Peco code 75 looks quite good for general use, but the plain track sleepers and point timbers, are too closely spaced for 1960s UK track, perhaps aimed at the continental market? All is not lost, this 5ft. "Large Radius" example is about the sharpest you can get away with on a prototypical passenger running line in 4mm, nothing has been added, it was just a case of careful filletting, the point does not need to be dismantled. To maintain integrity and strength, I retain the tie-bar unit (far left), the two timbers at the pivot points, two timbers at the isolation break, two timbers at the frog, and the two timbers with angle at the far end, all else is removed. The timbers removed are then cut into individual strips, the inner rail clips removed, and then re-introduced to the point, where appropriate. So looking at the photo, from left the first two sleepers become one spaced out, after the tie-bar switch, 7 timbers become 6, after the pivot 6 become 5, after the isolation gap 4 become 3, after the frog 5 become 4, with some tricky half-timbers around the frog, to avoid cutting the latter. You can see I still need to add some half-clips on the insides of the re-positioned timbers. If you are careful, you can leave the outer moulded rail clips on, or replace with Peco or C&L clips cut in half. You will have spare timbers to play with. Should take about half-an-hour. You can convert them to EM and P4 as well. Cheers, Brian.

Thanks Iain, The bubblewrap was laid bubbles down to a smooth baseboard, by spraying a thin coat of impact glue (e.g. STUK Heavy Duty, 151 Heavy Duty or others) on top the wood surface, which gives you about five minutes to roll out the wrap, and cut/trim sections. Don't use PVA wood glue, cos that will naturally adhere to the wood, but not strongly to the bubblewrap, since it won't react with the plastic, and can be easily dislodged. The prepared track formation is held by a bead of the same impact spray glue as above, sprayed on the bubble, roughly where the centre of the track will lie, plonk the track on top, you've got just a few minutes to line things up nicely, don't do more than about a yard at a time. After five minutes, that track ain't going anywhere, now it's ready for your desired method of ballasting, but you'll want to connect any wires first. I did wonder if there was any ecological gain by not using cork, but was surprised to find that cork is a sustainable product, it is harvested from special Cork Oak Trees. Foam rubber and bubblewrap can be re-cycled, although the bubbles on the latter, have to be burst one at a time with a pin, before they can be collected. The mixed ballast in my later pics, looked a bit dark, that was because my PVA+water mix had not completely dried out (it's getting lighter now!). I might try another method to speed things up, Cascamite (powdered wood glue) mixed with ballast might be a winner, as long as it doesn't dry too hard, with it brushed into place, then given a light spray of water? Cheers, Brian.

If anybody's interested, here's a little update on my bubblewrap underlay trial. I'm sorry to disappoint those people who still nail their track down with track pins, but this method is a glue sandwich, no bubbles were harmed in the making of this layout. I have now added ballast to a few test sections, sprinkling on loose chippings, a fine spray of soapy water, then with diluted PVA wood glue (+ dash of detergent to diffuse the mixture and help it spread) dripped on. When I previously ballasted track on foam rubber, I had to omit the detergent, since the diffused mixture would otherwise perculate down into the foam, and make it solid! No such problems here, the smooth top of the bubblewrap provides a waterproof layer, though one slight snag is the drying takes longer, since there is no absorbent layer. Prototype for everything - when Western Region relaid the main line through Badminton in the 1970s, they encountered various wet sections of ground, which caused drainage problems, the cure was to lay the track and ballast on thick plastic sheeting (no bubbles). My layout will depict the line as seen in the 1960s, so there is a mixture of bullhead and flat-bottom, wooden sleepers, and one stretch of concrete cwr sleepering, as per the real location. The points and sleepers on the Peco Code 75 flat-bottom, have been cut and spaced further apart, to improve the overall look, and be a closer match to the ready-made bullhead. I have placed an unaltered point alongside to show the difference. The crossover uses mixed track, the nearest track is bullhead, the second is flat-bottom. The nearest pair of tracks are the Up and Down Main in flat-bottom, the next pair are Up and Down Relief lines in bullhead. Next time, I can start a new thread in Layout Topics, so as not to clog up Tony's thread here. Cheers, Brian.

Hi Everyone, Even if I lived to 150, I still wouldn't have enough time to convert all my kitbuilt and RTR OO models to P4. So being a one-man-band, i'll keep the P4 for branch lines and smaller projects, my main line layout will have to be using the best in OO. OO RTR has vastly improved in the last 20 years, so I have reclaimed some old baseboards from my previous layout, for further use. The track had been laid on 5mm foam rubber, plus rectangular holes had been cut for Peco point motors, which of course, will now be in the wrong place. I'm not sure if Tony, and others, will approve of this technique, but rather than cutting out bespoke wooden plugs to fill the voids, I applied sticky tape to the undersides, then sprayed in small blobs of expanding foam. After a few minutes, the foam pushes into all the recesses, the tape is strong enough to stop it dripping, and the excess rises up like a mushroom. About an hour or so later, I cut the excess off with a razor saw, leaving the top surface flush, ready for an underlay. The old shredded foam is bagged, and kept for scenery. I find cork sheet a bit too firm, and these days quite expensive, i've preferred foam rubber for years, which gives the track a bit of vertical movement, even after ballasting. These days I live on the Isle Of Wight, and i've run out of foam rubber, and haven't found a source here, and then there's Covid, I haven't been on the mainland since December! Then it dawned on me, I have reams of free bubblewrap from deliveries, would that do the job? So I have glued several sections on with impact adhesive, bubbles downwards, which leaves a lovely flat surface for track and ballast. Time will tell, if I glued it on the walls, I could make my own padded cell. Cheers, Brian.

By coincidence, I too have a Hornby rebuilt Bulleid light pacific, with the same affliction of a cracked gear, are all the blinking rebuilt BLP models affected? To make matters worse, they use a completely different pair of final drive gears to MNs and unrebuilts, but with the same part number of X8849, as the other pair on the service sheet. To be fair, both are available (from time to time), you can buy X8849 or X8849/21, someone has now added the /21 suffix, I bought two of each just to make sure I had the right ones. Getting back to the new Prairies, one of the many exquisite fittings, is the very delicate and scale sliding cab roof vent, which opens and closes. Did anyone miss that? BK

Getting back to my original post and 4160 photo from last Tuesday, I repeat that the loco had just been removed from it's red box and plastic goldfish bowl, for the very first time, the wheel was dangling, as I was about to test it. This is the first RTR i've ever bought with a driving wheel off, and in my modest experience, I can't remember seeing similar elsewhere? How did this happen? I doubt it was damaged in the mail order shop, although I did once see a Trix DMU get dropped head first on a concrete floor, by a rather clumsy member of staff, it was a right mess. I doubt the wheel popped off in transit, the pick-ups are never strong enough to push the wheel off through vibration, it can't be a design fault, or else other customers would be reporting similar faults? I think it's a factory assembly hiccup, they must be testing chassis for rollerability after quartering, and checking for wobbles, hence so many are good smooth runners. Maybe it was about to corrected, and ended up in a box by mistake? It hasn't put me off buying more, this is just one dud out of thousands of good ones. Luckily i'm well versed in quartering, five days after my DIY repair, it's still running nicely. Cheers, Brian.

Actually, to be pedantic, I think the BRMSB back-to-back was 14.45mm, but most OO people back in the 1970s and 80s went for 14.5mm. BK

I always assumed all manufacturers tested locos before leaving the factory, or has this one by-passed quality control, or has it been shaken up in transit? Apart from the driving wheel off, there was no other problem elsewhere, and the red box was in perfect condition. The good news is I re-mounted the wheel, and quartered it by eye within a few minutes, it seemed to slide back on to the splined axle quite easily, perhaps not as tight as previous Hornby locos? This was supposed to be just a quick test, to make sure everything worked correctly, i'm pleased to report that with six wheels it ran beautifully, so all is now well, no need to return to vendor. Hornby are still sticking to their 14.3mm back-to-back measurement, perhaps due to their train set track, whereas 14.5mm has been the BRMSB standard for over half-a-century, indeed these days for OO finescale track 14.7 or even 14.8mm is desirable, 14.7 is better for Hornby due to their flanges. I will re-gauge this loco to 14.7, and with spacing washers, so the wheels will be coming off again at a later date. Regarding the colour debate, don't worry, they weren't all the same, even locos fresh from Swindon, Wolverhampton, Worcester or Caerphilly works repair, would appear in different shades, with variations in the lining. I'm happy with the Hornby shade, if all your layout locos were the same shade, that would look rather odd? My one gripe with Hornby's liveries, is that they print the lining shiny, with the body colour dull. No problem, easily fixed with your choice of matt, satin or semi-gloss varnish, then all blends in nicely. Cheers, Brian.

My 4160 arrived today, this is it moments after taking it out of the box, something doesn't seem right? BK

Hi Tony, I'd forgotten about the DMU derailment, I shouldn't have run them, since they were still a work in progress, with unrefined couplings, and a few wobbles, where i'd re-wheeled the motor bogies. I've never found oil on the rails to form a gooey mess, it either gets wiped off, or just evaporates? Maybe the sharp western curve on the Retford layout, could benefit from flange lubricators? The layout's semaphore gantries look truly splendid, like roses in the garden. Cheers, Brian.

Hi Everyone, I haven't been on RMweb for ages, ever since my move overseas to my island paradise, away from all the hubbub of mainland UK. I can't see a huge problem with re-starting model railway shows, even though they were previously well known for over-crowding, oversize rucksacks, and a degree of pushing and shoving. We just need to follow the now more relaxed supermarket practice, having scrapped the one-way system in the aisles, although retaining the separate entrance and exit, and with a limit on overall numbers at any one time. As long as everyone wears masks, and keeps one metre apart (like at Scaleforum on the sunday afternoon!), we'll all be fine. Regarding material for loco pick-ups, i've always found phosphor-bronze good on nickel tyres, nickel-silver strip to work better on steel tyres, and hard brass wire works well on anything. No doubt it's all down to the metallurgy, i'm told that even the finest steel has quite a rough surface, hence it's superior adhesion properties, perhaps not so good for conductivity though, with the bumping causing more sparks. The pick-up metal should always be softer than the tyre metal, or you'll end up with grooves. I've never been a fan of enclosed plunger pick-ups, the springs tend to eventually collapse, and to change some, means removing the wheels. Enjoying a visit to Little Bytham two years ago, we ran two of my DJH Black 5s (supposedly on a Mansfield to Norwich cup tie special) around the Up Main, Tony was rather cross to find some oil had got on to his railheads. I have a habit of allowing a droplet of oil on to my loco driving wheels, it reduces sparking between wheel and rail, meaning less dirt, keeps the wheels and pick-ups cleaner, and I find everything runs more smoothly, quite good for starting wheel-slip effects too. In the real world, high-voltage switchgear is invariably contained within an oil bath, to reduce arcing, my method is just a scaled down version. It makes track cleaning easier too, none of this "I spent two hours cleaning the track" nonsense, the film of oil spreads along the track, loosening any dirt, then a heavy loco with a wiping pad is sent around to mop things up. I'm a great admirer of the late Roy's Retford layout, although sadly I never got to see it in the flesh, I must say it looks splendid in the latest photographs, and i'm sure it is in safe hands. Cheers, Brian. (On the Isle Of Wight)