Mark L Horstead

My Bachmann Pillbox Brake Van and Moving the Goods 3 Coal - Energy for the Nation arrived today.  I have a couple more Moving the Goods volumes enroute as well.

I was looking through the Stewarts Lane book again and noticed a colour photograph of the Shortlands signal box on page 22, That's the one most similar to the Beckenham Junction box that I've seen so far, so I went looking for more photographs and found some, including one that I just ordered from HRMS. Brick and blue panel colours match my memory.

13 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably you have a copy of the Middleton Press 'Victoria to Bromley' ..... the WEST end of the tunnel is clearly shown ( plate 80 ) and the east end's probably just the same - though hidden beneath the Brighton Line and C.P. loop bridges ( plate 87 ).

No, I don't have that one yet, but it's now on my list. 

I have Clapham Jn to Beckenham Jn by V Mitchell and K Smith, but may have seen Victoria to Bromley online somewhere.

I have four Crowood Press books on the way, and a couple of dozen other books on my list.

There's got to be a more compact cliche around. I'm planning minimum width for this bit.

You, Sir, are worth far more than I am paying you.

I'll have to check my book list tonight. I may or may not have it, or it may or may not be on my acquisition list. If not and not, I'll hunt a copy down. Thanks for the tip. There was a photograph of the other end in the Stewarts Lane book.

Plain is fine. I just want to be as accurate as possible, even if nobody but me knows. I'm interested in the bridges as well, as the combination would be a very effective scenic break and also help to illustrate how complex the rail network is.

I copied some sort of 2/4EPB train simulator video from Youtube (I think) a couple of years ago, from London to Beckenham Junction. I may be able to talk the channel owner into doing the reverse trip, if he hasn't already - I don't think that I ever looked.

I'll eventually learn where to look for what...

Penge Tunnel

My Stewart Lane book arrived on Friday afternoon and William Shakespeare arrived today. I am pleased with both.

Unfortunately, from the modelling perspective, I had a much busier weekend than expected, so nothing has come out of its box yet.

I've only had time to flip through Stewarts Lane a couple of times. It's not quite what I envisioned, as most of the photographs are locomotive- rather than facility-focussed. That's not an expression of disappointment at all. There are plenty of photographs from which I can extract many useful details. Unfortunately for you lot, that probably means more questions but there likely won't be too many for a while as I have much to digest still.

It is especially nice to have colour photographs for weathering purposes.

I am going to need photographs of the eastern entrance to the Penge tunnel and overpasses, and I do not think that those will be easy to come by. I'm considering looking for a drone service to get some video. I am thinking of starting at that end, for simplicity.

Depending upon cost, I may go for roof-top footage of the Beckenham Junction station buildings as well.

There are a few more books to come, yet, and more on my list to order. The only remaining model still to come, I think, is my pillbox brake van. I do not plan to order any more models for a while unless I spot something rare that I want, with the exception of the Bachmann 4BEP in blue/grey when it appears. I am planning an order for Replica 4EPB parts, but am in no rush for those (but probably should be in case those all disappear unexpectedly).

Greetings, All

I've had a busy couple of weeks - which has given all of you knowledgeable and helpful chaps a bit of a (probably-most-welcome) break.

I received my green Bachmann 4CEP and Hornby Golden Arrow Pullman set yesterday evening via Evil Bay. I've yet to have time to look at them properly, but will do so this weekend (Victoria Day Monday adds an extra day). I also need to review all previous responses to extract and catalogue every bit of useful information.

There are still a few things bobbing around the North Atlantic or sitting in a container at the bottom of the tallest stack in a port. Eventually...

Thanks again.

"Generally have been used on curves" - all/most/some curves, particularly high-speed and/or tight radius curves?

I'm particularly curious about the split on either side of the signal box, as there won't be any other curves in view.

Modelling track accurately appeals to me - it's often overlooked. I want fishplates everywhere where they should be and cables to third rails and junk/abandoned newspapers and any details that can be added to points. I've yet to begin research into the latter.

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Close ........ not quite gravestones but - in my experience - they were known as "monuments" !  The concrete object you see ( cruciform in plan ) had part of an old fishplate cast into it so the end was slightly proud at the top ; this had a conspicuous groove across the middle so when the whole thing was buried in the ballast it showed exactly where the centre of the four-foot should be ....... the track might move over time but the monument won't. 

Would they be visible when in place? Would the fishplate be embedded just as a marker or to increase weight? If just as a marker, why would not something simpler/lighter suffice, like grooves cast into the concrete? How far apart and/or where would they likely have been laid (curves)? If track was seen to have shifted, would the shift have been corrected, or speed restrictions have been imposed etcetera? What is the velocity of an unladen...?

It is not my intent to penalize answers with more questions, but I cannot help it. I can have a voracious appetite for such details.

Like shunting moves from long ago.

6 hours ago, 73c said:

They were windows at some point, at that size and 'bricked up' using sleepers, you can see the holes where the chairs were screwed to them.

The bar across, I'm going to guess at being some angle iron, with long bolts going thro' to inside and nutted. Possibly find the same on the inside, the sleepers being pinched between the 2 and would stop them from falling over and anyone trying to get in. If there were windows the other side, then yes, they may have done the same set up.

The mortar is a different colour, possibly from being re pointed and so it's newer.

On the roof, it looks like a large tarp covering to stop pigeons and other crap getting in and blocking the 'out' pipe.

The ladder has a brace to stop it flexing when climbing up.

The 'Grave stones' look like the bases the S&T use for point rodding.

If you want, it may be possible to scratch build one, using an old Wills Finecast loco shed (CK12 ) that will have the arched windows, window frames etc.

Think they also do pack of arches and window frames separately. The LCC kit looks good and is probably easier and quicker.

This is one of the most interesting posts - I could not pick a single most interesting one and every contributor here deserves a first prize - in this thread. So many little gems of information.

I had interpreted the chair holes as bolt heads. This explanation is much more delightful. I presume that this would have been done not long after steam locomotives ceased stopping here and requiring water, so before my chosen (and slightly revised) earlies date of 1961ish. I hope so, because I want to depict it thus.

Would identical windows on both sides be normal, just in case a photograph of the other side does not turn up? I shall have to model it that way anyway, because the north side will not be easily seen on the layout.

I'll have to hunt around online for photographs of the tops of such structures, but some sort of tarp-like covering might well suffice.

So the ladder was fixed, then. I don't remember ever seeing fixed ladders that were anything other than vertical.

Thanks for the Wills tip. I'll look at those items.

7 hours ago, hobbyhorse said:

Mark

The first column, PB73 is prepare from birth, RW73 is relieve and work, both ED's . FS is freight shunt. RA is relieved at, in this case Lewisham.

Second column, NX New Cross, Plum Plumstead, BA Bricklayers Arms.

Last two columns, // shows light loco, and F after shows freight.

Hope this is enlightening.

 

Simon

 

Thanks, Simon

I've a lot of running around to do this weekend but I shall study this as I find some breaks. Expect some more questions, but hopefully they will eventually taper off.

I am fascinated by all of these details.

There is a story behind everything, no matter how seemingly trivial, that few even consider. I like to know them.

I have that site bookmarked already, as it was in another thread here somewhere.

I did not take that "20" as a sign, though, so looking therein did not occur to me. All that I've ever seen at that end of the platform in photographs has been some sort of junk, so that was my expectation. And I didn't realize that the bar across the bottom was an arrow.

More learning has occurred, thanks.

It's the same for engineers (drivers) here, or was, at least. With the distances covered by freight trains today, that may or may not be practicable.

13 hours ago, hobbyhorse said:

Mark, this is the turn which dates from 1980.

We used platform 4 to make up the departing train if the platform wasn't used to birth a juicer.

As the headhunt was on a curve we used whistles to control movements, as you can see we didn't have long to shunt so it was very straightforward.

 

Simon 

"As you can see..."

I wish that I could.

I've printed that photograph, full-sized, and can decipher some abbreviations like H(ither) G(ree)n Dep(arture) - or Dep(ot)?, D(ow)n S(i)d(i)ngs, Stew(art) L(a)n(e), etcetera, but...

I have no idea what the notations in the first column are, much of the second column baffles me, and the third and fourth appear to be times - arrival in the third and departure in the fourth? What is the significance of the // between what I take to be hour and minutes, and why does that only appear in some?

It's probably all obvious to many/most here, but I've waited and waited to see if anybody else asks before I out myself as the dummy and nobody has.

10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

..... but then we turned right ....

 

What's the "20" at the far end of the platform?

On 06/05/2021 at 06:03, Wickham Green too said:

I think the brake van's an L.N.W.R. type and the water tower - well, it's a water tower : - 

 

 

A few questions about this water tower, if I may:

What was the purpose of the door/window like openings?

What is the purpose of the long bar across them?

Were they once larger and then partially bricked in?

Was the far side the same?

Is there any significance to the change in the shade of the mortar on the lower have of the brick portion?

Is whatever is covering the roof actually part of the roof or just something draped over it?

Would the roof have originally been open like the Peco model?

Is the ladder attached? there appears to be something tying it to the brickwork where the ladder crosses the upper window of the house behind.

The brick part of Water Tower - LCC B 00-20 is the closest match that I could find in kit or ready-built form, but scratchbuilding would be almost as easy. There's a Dapol kit with a similar tank but I do not know if the sizes are compatible, but, again, it should be simple to make my own.

What are the gravestone-like things stacked to the right of the oil drums?

Does anybody make brick arches suitable for the door/window bits?

I was looking through websites about old Austins last night, seeing if I could find my father's in one. There were a few likely candidates generally from the late 1930s. I have a photograph - somewhere.

Narrowly missed a second green Bachmann 4CEP auction on Evil Bay earlier today but got another one a few minutes later for only a few pounds more. Shipping and import fees add half of the cost of the item itself again.

“Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.”

- Oscar Wilde

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Headcode 24 a couple of pages back was Bickley and London Victoria via Herne Hill so seen regularly during peak hours at Beckenham Junction. If the Charing Cross-Hayes via Lewisham service had been diverted to Beckenham Junction (as a result of engineering works, flooding at Clock House or w.h.y.) it would have carried head code 20 and, more importantly, it would have been in the Mid-Kent bay rather than on the up road.

Thank-you for that. I shall want to get the headcodes as correct as I can.

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yup - have a look at the text at the bottom of the photo (its from RAIB report apparently)

 

I think its this one https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/411268/100318_R042010_Greenhill_Upper_Jcn.pdf

 

In fact https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/rail-accident-investigation-branch is an interesting site to browse anyway- there is an awful lot you can learn about railway operation from their reports.

 

However I included the photo merely to give an idea of how the machine is fitted - like I said there are an awful lot of layouts which have the Peco accessory fitted in a way its physically impossible to install in real life

 

 

I did not understand much of the technical aspect of that report, but every form of exposure helps. It's clear that it could have been a lot worse, though.

And I like to get things as right as possible, so the photographs and explanation certainly help.

2 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Ah, I see.  It certainly looks like Beckenham Junction with the the three tracks in front (Platform 1 and two sidings) and the terraced houses on the other side of Rectory Road.

As Wickham Green too teasingly confirmed.

Thanks.

I meant the specific one in the photograph. I was not sure if it was the Beckenham one or a very similar one. I have memories of it, but not clear enough to pick it out in a line-up.

Yes...

That much I understand.

I saw the second photograph that you just added to your previous post, and will compare that to my photographs in a little while.

Is the accident report from which the first photograph was taken available online?

As a former military helicopter pilot, I am always interested in how and why things happen.

2 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Couldn't get much closer ...... and details of the houses on Rectory Road too - not to mention the period Austin A40 ! [ I think that photo is 1972 - judging by other shots on the film.]

Yes, although time and space will not permit modelling the houses, and there won't be much road space, either, for cars.

At least one bus on the bridge, and another elsewhere, and perhaps a couple of cars.

My father's first car was a well-used Vauxhall with a hand-crank starter. We were going somewhere one day, probably 1959 as I don't think that my sister had been born then, and, when I hopped into the back seat I saw a large hole in the floor. My mother went back into the house, and my father drove it to a junk yard instead. The next was a second (at least)-hand Austin, again with a hand-crank. We had that until moving to Canada in 1965, whereupon he bought a 1963 Ford Galaxie complete with electric starter and powered windows - a huge leap forward in technology and size.

I have a slide of the Austin, and plan to track down a model of one, if such exists.

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I  am not aware of any model point machines which date from that time period. Peco do a more modern* one (the HW100 / HW200 dating from the 1980s I think) which you could use if merely after something 'representative' as it were.

 

That said you could always have a go at making your own, I cannot determine if the one in the pictured matches any of these https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/84830-moving-the-points-hands-rods-wires-and-machines/

 

 

One thing to be careful of though is placement! So many people end up mounting their Peco ones wrongly  - the sticking out bits at the sides need to line up with the gaps in the sleepers are as they represent covers hiding the operating rods! 

 

*Dummy Point Motor – PECO (peco-uk.com)

 

Again, my thanks. That helps a lot.

I've done some casting in the past, so could make a bunch once I know what to build. I'll look through those links later.

At this point, it's hard to keep up with everything flooding in - much more than I'd hoped to receive, but I am not surprised given the quality of help and information that I had already seen in other threads here.

4 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

 ...... half-way up the photograph on the right-hand edge.

So close enough, then...

Another very useful photograph.

19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That is called an 'Impedance bond' (with associated cabling etc).

 

Thanks.

I will understand all of that someday, after reading it over slowly a few more times.

I'm better with plumbing than electricity, as I can see the leaks.

I've always enjoyed the side-lessons in this hobby - always more to learn.