DCCconcepts

On 06/07/2021 at 10:53, Mike MR said:

Many thanks to all of you for the very helpful responses, particularly Ron Ron Ron for covering the frog polarity issue, which was one of the things that I was concerned about.

As Ron and John say, make sure the track switching is kept separate from the analog power to control the points.

This is easily accomplished on a Cobalt motor.

On a Classic Omega and Analog IP motor there are two electrically independent SPDT changeover contacts - marked S2-L/C/R and S3-L/C/R- either can be used for frog polarity.

Connect the track feeds to the L and R terminals and frog to the C terminal. If the frog polarity is incorrect, swap over the wires to the L and R terminals.

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

On 27/06/2021 at 10:38, Danemouth said:

 

I use Cobalt motors and have also left the springs in place. When I change points, which are controlled via the Powercab I am reassured when I hear the click of the points changing.

 

Dave

The usual recommendation is to remove springs with slow action motors, but we understand there are users that do not.

The stall action of the motor is more than enough to hold the blades in place.

Leaving the springs in can sometimes create a "timing" issue with frog switching if using pointwork with frogs that aren't fully isolated from the blades [*] and both the blades and motor frog switch are used for frog polarity

What can happen with the springs left in is that the point motor frog switch may change polarity before the blades click over, causing a short.

This timing short can also sometimes occur with the likes of N gauge pointwork if the motor operating wire isn't centred properly, as the switch can operate before the blades change polarity, or vice versa.

The timing/shorting issue is not unique to Cobalt motors - it will occur with other slow action motors (including servos) fitted with a frog switch and pointwork that does not have the blades electrically isolated from the frog.

[*]Often referred to with the misleading "making points DCC friendly" instead of "making points electrically friendly for DCC AND DC"

Best Regards

The DCCconcepts Team

On 27/06/2021 at 10:49, Danemouth said:

IIRC Powercabs were originally sold with  1.5 amp power supplies but now sold with 2 amps supplies.

 

I've used Powercabs for over a decade and have set it to show current draw instead of time. Never seen it go above 0.6 amps. It also powers the eleven Cobalt motors on Danemouth.

 

Dave

Cobalt IP Digital point motors take approximately 5mA when static. They will draw about 50mA when moving and once stalled, will revert back to the 5mA state.

Best Regards,

The Dccconcepts Team

23 hours ago, paul northcott said:

Thank you Meil, Appreciated. I did spot this one on my trawl through, there’s quite a lengthy piece in there which to be honest was above my head. The original poster has said he replaced Seep with Cobalt digital, which solved his problem. Im using Cobalt analogue and I still have a problem. Im speaking to DCC Supplies but I dint think they know the answer. Im absolutely sure I’m all wired up correctly, I’ve checked it so many times. 

Hi Paul,

We have replied to your email. We concur with others that it is most likely a routeing issue with the single slip creating a short because the "unused" blades/motor are in the incorrect position.

A single slip - with motor operated frog switching - has to be operated as if it were a double slip.

Best Regards.

The DCCconcepts Team

On 27/06/2021 at 07:23, PaulRhB said:

Enter - 1 is just the way the NCE selects the ‘throw’ to happen. 
 

On losing addresses they are susceptible to it with shorts, it’s not every one that is but I had three that did. I got a BUS dcc snubber and put it across the far end of the BUS and it stops the power spike as you start up the system and haven’t had an issue since. 
https://www.roxleymodels.co.uk/concepts-supressorsterminators-p-4002.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwoNuGBhA8EiwAFxomA7JHIScfSY5JFqB9xOETXYIDAKjDaItcsDuSNumOZK1v5lnK7kLUlxoCdH0QAvD_BwE

 

and a topic on them here

 

Hi Paul,

We did have a small batch of motors manufactured in late 2018 that had a memory issue when the DCC bus was shorted.

This was due to them being fitted with an out of specification component.

Once the issue was identified, steps were taken to ensure that there was never a repeat.

Since then, we have sold over 30000 Cobalt Digital IP with no re-emergence of the problem

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

2 hours ago, Peter749 said:

I'm changing the track plan on my layout and it will have a hidden loop where the train leaves the station in to a tunnel and a 180 degree curve thru the hidden section under the road behind the station then out the other end. - As I will park a train on this section until I require it to run I need something to remind me it is there.

Basically a section of single track that is around 12 feet long

 

I'm using DCC with the Lenz LH90 on a OO Layout but I'm unsure on DCC detection circuits or should I go for something simpler

I don't with to controls signals with what I use - I just need some thing to show occupied or free

 

Any thoughts please?

 

Peter

 

Look at using one of our LMiD detectors.

It has a 12v/250mA output that can be used for numerous things - simplest circuit is a LED with resistor to indicate an occupied circuit.

Power to it is taken from your DCC track bus.

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/legacy-models-intelligent-detector-single-pack/

Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

On 12/06/2021 at 10:40, AyJay said:

I hope that an informed person can give me some good advice.

I would like to extend my DCC system and have contacted the suppliers concerned, however their replies do not really give me the information that I need and leave me more confused than ever.

So I hope that someone here has done what I plan to do and can advise.

 

 

I have a moderate size OO gauge railway.  It comprises a twin loop for mainline operation, 10-track fiddleyard,  engine yard with capacity for 20 locomotives and goods sidings.  There are 39 points, operated by Cobalt ip Digital point motors, connected to the DCC bus.  Control is via the NCE Powercab (the starter kit, I believe) with a 1.5A rating.  I will be running up to 3 locomotives at one time, a few of them have sound.

 

What I want to do is purchase the Cobalt levers for operating my points, this will require two Cobalt Alpha encoder boards.

(before anyone says "but you have 39 points?"  A number of them work as pairs, so I only require 21 addresses for them)

I also want to have a mimic board that will show the settings of the points.  This will require two (possibly three) Cobalt mimic boards with LED's.

At some point in the future, I will want to deal with the matter of operating semaphore signals, but that won't be yet.

 

However, when contacted,  the replies from both NCE and DCC Concepts did not 'join all the dots' for me, were at best confusing and at worst, conflicting.

 

DCC Concepts suggest that I upgrade the mains PSU to a 3A rating and put a circuit breaker (in the DCC bus?)  They suggest that the encoders can connect to the NCE power panel, but do not say how the encoders and mimic boards are powered.

 

NCE says that I should upgrade my power panel (I was shocked to see that upgrades are in 3-figure sums!!!)  They know nothing about DCC Concepts and advise me not to connect any non-NCE product to their power panel.

 

I have sketched out what I think it should look like (existing system is in black).  The encoded output from the levers is fed into the power panel and the mimic boards read the DCC bus.  

I am happy to replace the 1.5A PSU and add a circuit breaker as suggested, but I still don't know how the new boards will be powered and where I can plug in the feed from the encoders?  I also think that the existing NCE power panel is very small.

I would like to avoid unnecessary expense, so don't want a 'bank busting' do everything solution.

 

Can anyone sort out this mess for me.  Thank you.

Alan

Hi Alan,

NCE are aware of us - they repair stuff we send them!

Your diagram looks good, and we have many users with similar configurations, but there are options to upgrade the power.

Yes - you can use passing contact switches instead of S-levers as an input to the AEU encoders, or even spring return to centre SPDT switches.

Give us a call tomorrow on 01729 821080 and press 2 for technical, or drop an email with the above diagram to salesuk@dccconcepts.com and we'll advise from there.

Best Regards.

The DCCconcepts team

As others have already said, it is a useful device when considering DCC in the future - simply power them from DCC instead of DC.

The inbuilt frog polarity negates the need for any tiebar or motor mounted switch and is easily wired to the point.

There is no requirement for other power supplies and switches for LED indication, making it easy to install with the minimum of fuss.

It is also useful if a user has already fitted solenoid motors and doesn't wish to go down the full route of changing to slow-action motors - either in analog or digital control form.

When powered by DCC, it can be controlled via a DCC command AND a momentary switch - this can be very useful for local control and indication via the LEDs. 

If powered by DC, then control is only via the momentary switch.

Best Regards.

The DCCconcepts Team

19 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

Thanks. Does the spring need to be removed too for the point? May as well ask you! 

I have sourced some from a shop so should be making the purchase soon. 

For slow action stall motors - the best practice is to remove the spring. (But we know of some that leave the spring in - it's their choice)

The motor will hold the blades in place at the end of travel.

Best Regards,

The Dccconcepts Team

If using an insulfrog - yes.

Best Regards

The Dccconcepts Team.

There was an issue with memory loss on a batch made in late 2018 - it is documented elsewhere on this forum and other media channels.

The issue was identified and fixed and has not occurred on the many 1000s of motors made since then.

It was not ECoS specific.

If you are using insulfrog points, there is no frog connection required.

As you are connecting them off "another set of wiring" - an accessory bus - if you did happen to use electrofrogs and use the switch on the motor, then this would need to be done via the separate switch terminals - marked S2.

Track power to S2-L and S2-R, frog connection to S2-C

i.e. Do not use S1/frog for frog switching, when using a separate accessory bus

Best Regards

The Dccconcepts Team.

14 hours ago, Tommyp81 said:

I have been trying to find out what this device is, as it says Dcc in on one end and out on other, I was told it was a snubber but can't seem to find any more details on it. 

The item you have is a surge suppressor - wired in series with the bus to partially limit the inrush current on the likes of ADS solenoid decoders.

(It is used on rare occasions when a DCC system is sensitive to start up current)

It is not a DCC bus suppressor.

As others have said - a bus suppressor is wired across the two wires.

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts team

On 14/02/2021 at 17:01, GEOEng03 said:

Thanks all for the replies.  Sorry for delay as well.  Excellent reply that tells me just what is needed as well. 

 

OK, so going to ditch the SMP point motors and frog juicers and replace with these.  I have a single analogue motor, but wondering if it is worth spending just a bit more on the digital versions - incase i decide to use the controller.  I want to have switches at the front of the layout for control ideally, but wondering whether the small additional layout in money might be a better option! 

 

Best 

Bryn 

You essentially have 2 options to go digital later:

Fit your analog motor with a suitable decoder - such as the AD-*FX range

Or - fit a Digital IP in the first place and power it from your DCC bus. Control it by using two pushbuttons or a spring to centre SPDT switch connected to the PBS terminals 7/8/9.

You could even just use one pushbutton connected 7-9 and toggle the motor.

It's up to you whether you give it an address or not - they are happy working with either DCC commands or from the "manual" PBS terminals at the same time.

If it is powered from your track bus, then simply connect terminal 3 to your electrofrog.

If the polarity is incorrect, swap over the DCC IN feed wires.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

19 hours ago, GEOEng03 said:

Hi 

Appreciate this may have been done to death, but I'm struggling to understand everything that I've read so far.  I just want to know if the Cobalt iP Analogue switches polarity on frogs when wired in. I can see the iP digital does, but not entirely sure for iP Analouge. 

 

Best regards 

As Teaky says, the Analog IP will switch frog polarity.

It has two built in changeover switches (S2 and S3) that can be used for frog polarity and other switching - such as signals.

Reversing DC (regulated) to DC IN (terminals 1/2) to control the direction of the motor.

Track power to S2L and S2 R (terminals 4/5) and frog to S2C (terminal 6). If the frog polarity is incorrect, swap the track feeds on S2L/R.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards

The DCCconcepts Team

On 22/01/2021 at 21:08, Grovenor said:

The OP said he wanted to work it off the actual frog, using track power,not from a frog switch.

That DCC Concepts thing is just a latching relay dressed up , buy a relay from somewhere like CPC its more economical and you can do whatever you want with it. Just needs a bit more thought.

The DCCconcepts "thing" is not a latching relay.

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

p.s Nick - contact us via our salesuk email regarding our adapter.

On 08/12/2020 at 23:50, woodenhead said:

Update: I am somehow programmed the point motor, but whilst it works in normal mode it doesnt fire under the set mode - this is wierd.

 

At least I know the motor is working and the Sprog is creating points but it's not how I expected and I dont know how I have managed it.

On 09/12/2020 at 12:16, Crosland said:

 

Is it supposed to fire when in set mode? It may be a feature that all it does it register the address, only actually firing when in run mode?

 

Maybe DCConcepts can answer?

 

Apologies for not picking this up sooner.

A Cobalt Digital IP does not move to DCC commands when in the SET mode.

When the switch is placed in the SET position, it is "listening" for an accessory command and then remembers that number as the switch is returned to the RUN position

The SET/RUN procedure is the same for our other accessory decoders/controllers, such as the ADS, AD and CBSS series.

Best Regards.

The DCCconcepts Team

On 02/01/2021 at 22:40, Richard Croft said:

I have used the DCC concepts stay alives in the past and I couldn't tell if they worked either, they are useless. The newer ones might be better but I haven't tried them. They should charge up pretty much instantly, you shouldn't be needing to wait.

 

Richard

Hi Richard,

The small stay alives as supplied with earlier decoders were for micro-breaks in pickup - not visible run-on as Ron Ron says.

The new range of stay alives will show appreciable run-on over dead spots. Distance will depend upon loco speed/current draw and also cut off time if the decoder supports it. As well as charge time - which can be over a minute to reach full capacity in some cases.

Regarding charging time - if they are allowed to charge too fast, there is the possibility of overheating a decoder. Particularly if a loco is used on dirty/dead track where the stay alive is constantly charging/discharging.

In reality - even though we make stay alive units - a stay alive is there as an aid - it is not a quick fix for dirty/dead track/bad pickups etc.

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

On 10/12/2020 at 22:56, John ks said:

Schooner

As shown the cobalt's wont work

If you want to use the Gaugemaster to power the Cobalt's the the point lever will have to be wired as a DPDT switch 

(if the point doesn't move when the lever is thrown then chance the wires to terminals 4 & 5 on the lever IE black to 4 & red to 5. 8 & 9 remain as shown)

OR

You can get a Cobalt CDU2 power supply & wire as shown

 

Regarding the crossing gates . I've only looked at their webpage & I think you will need to wire the servo something like shown

 

 

 

John

 

 

John,

The CDU2 is totally unsuitable for operation with an analogue slow action point motor.

It is a capacitor discharge unit and designed for use with solenoid motors and will damage the Analog IP 

(You may be thinking about the PSU2 - which is a +9v/0v/-9v unit - however - no longer available and replaced with the SPS12 unit as a split voltage supply.)

We would also suggest that the accessory output from the controller is not used.

They are often unregulated/unsmoothed. (Usually "rated" at 12v and typically measuring 14-16v with no or minimal load and higher voltage spikes unseen with a multimeter)

The Analog IP requires a regulated DC supply.

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

16 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

4 - The DCC Concepts lever comes with a set of wires.  Consulting the manual for the latching switches, and it shows: one set are Blue-Yellow-Black (don't confuse the blacks, there appear to be two!), the other set are grey-green-red.   I'll pick the grey-green-red, but the other set are also a valid choice.  The grey is switch common, so connect that to the MegaPoints SC wire (discussed above, shares over multiple lever switches).   The green and red are switched, either (but only one) can be connected to the numbered Megapoints terminals - experiment as to which works best for you on lever position. (quicker at this stage than re-programming the Megapoints board to reverse the signal movement).  

The other wires on the DCC Concepts levers can be taped up as "not needed" for those levers.   

 

....

 

As for the other DCC Concepts boards, don't know off the top of my head (well I could wade through the manuals, but as it's all from the same maker then the bits should work,  or ask DCC Concepts for advice for your layout setup - I think they'll usually give advice to customers on the customer's specific setup.  ).  

 

 

 

There is no yellow wire on a S-Lever.

There are three SPDT changeover switches.

1-3 green/black/red is left/common/right for momentary (at end of travel) connections - these are perfect for input to the AEU encoder unit.

4-6 black/orange/blue is left/right/common for a latching SPDT. (Ideal for on/off/on connections to switch inputs)

7-9 grey/green/red is common/left/right for a latching SPDT as above.

Full connection details can be found via our manual - available online

The basic system is S-Lever to AEU encoder. Using the momentary 1-3 terminals from the S-Lever for each channel.

The AEU encoder will generate the necessary DCC accessory commands. They are 12 channel units.

Encoder is connected to Sniffer (which has the power supply for the system), via the curly cord (RJ12)

Sniffer output - 2 wire DCC accessory system to Digital IP and other DCC addressable accessory decoders

The OP has posted the same question in other online forums and been asked to contact ourselves directly, which he replied that he would do so.

Best Regards

The DCCconcepts Team

17 hours ago, philg said:

It's a direct 8-pin plug decoder (no harness) and in a blue shrink wrap. I suspect it's a tad old, but I only just got around to using it

 

CV7 is 034 (decimal)

Hi Phil,

Thank you for the information.

CV7=34 is a relatively old decoder - we have upgraded the software since then.

We have sent you a PM.

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

17 hours ago, philg said:

tbh this is an old ZEN so maybe things have got better

 

 

Hi Phil,

What value is in CV7 of the errant decoder?

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

9 minutes ago, mjenderby said:

PS I tried a different unit with similar results. Given one pair of points work, maybe it's an issue of variability with the SEEPs. What is certain is that the switching power diminishes significantly if you try to drive 2. In the event I had a spare output so now separately powered. This means switching is very positive and there are no worries about partial switching :-)

 

Cheers

 

Mark

 

 

We have found the SEEP motors can vary, so when used in pairs, one can take most of the energy if the other is a bit stiff.

Another thing to consider is the DCC system voltage as this will effect the charge voltage of the capacitors on the ADS units.

(The higher the DC volts, the higher the capacitor volts resulting in a higher output pulse voltage)

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

Hi Steve,

Ron is correct with his details.

Just to add a few extra bits of info for others.

We will stress that the DC power must be regulated.

Do not use the auxiliary output from a train controller/transformer as they are often unregulated.

We recommend that the switch to terminals 7-9 is a SPDT spring return to centre (on/off/on) or a pair of pushbuttons, as the left to right inputs needs to see a small break of a few millisceconds - so an on-on switch cannot be used.

The SET/RUN switch is not used for DC operation if you are only using manual switches to terminals 7-9.

The manual switches can still be used in parallel with DCC operation.

Even after the motor is addressed (from the default of #1)

This is ideal if you wish to fit Cobalt Digital IP and provide power (but not necessarily control them) from a DCC power source.

And if you are using the same DCC power source for the track, then you can use S1/Frog terminal 3 to switch the frog, leaving S2 - terminals 4-6 free for swicthing other items, such as signals.

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team.

Hi Edward. 

Are you wanting to show route indication on a mimic panel for a 3 way point ?.

If this is correct we can give you a diagram on how to do this using the single colour leds. 

We are not at this time able to do it using the red/green leds due to the way the mimic board outputs work.

Please send an Email to:    Salesuk@dccconcepts.com.

And we can forward the information.

Just a reminder this will only work with the single colour Leds connected to the Mimic board,  and uses two output addresses the same as the point motors. 

Best Regards.

The DCCConcepts Team 

Just a heads up for those awaiting Cobalt motors - again.......

We are just about to receive another decent four-figure quantity of Cobalt point motors - predominantly Digital IP, but also including Analog IP and Omega and SS surface mount.

All the Digital IP and Analog IP and SS motors are already pre-allocated to back orders and dealer pre-orders - we have a few Omega motors unallocated from this batch.

Hopefully - those of you that have ordered via your dealers will be receiving them soon.

For those that haven't already pre-ordered, have no fear.

There are another goodly few thousand due before Christmas.

So don't be disappointed again - pre-order with your dealer or ourselves.

Best Regards

The DCCconcepts team.