mark54

On 13/05/2021 at 00:14, HGR said:

Something to be aware of with the dates quoted in Longworth - those shown alongside the individual vehicle number are the date it was first noted or reported in traffic. This ties in with contemporary sightings in the likes of Railway Observers of the time. This would of course always be some variable length of time after the vehicle officially left works and was delivered into traffic. In some cases early sightings were made of trains of newly outshopped vehicles fresh from main works or builder in transit to their allocated region. Some individual examples on the other hand seemed to find places to hide for numbers of months before being spotted in traffic, possibly remaining on works for trials or experimental purposes before being released, or otherwise simply just not being noted by observers of the day.

 

M 34095 is the oddity. Lot 1626 gives it a build date of 1950 along with the others mentioned above, but the first mention or sighting of this number is not until well into 1952 roughly in sequence with the appearance of the last examples of lot 30003 from Derby and the first ones of lot 30025 from Wolverton. In the meantime, Eastleigh had already set away turning out some of the higher numbered examples for the Eastern and Southern Regions. 

 

To add to your comments, if they were completed in 9/50, that is 3 months before the issue of a lot number and 6 months before early production Mk1’s were displayed by the RE at Marylebone. I can no mention of them in the Parkin Supplement Carriage Standards Committee minutes before that date, only S15000 & M34000. It would be interesting to know where Longworth got the information from?

With regard to M34095, in the Ian Allan ABC British Railways Coaches 1958 & 1962 booklets, it is described as a prototype built for experimental use. So it may not have even been a fully completed vehicle or allocated a number. It may have been built for testing purposes only. If it didn’t have a service number, no one would have noted it. Once it’s experimental use was over in 1952, it may have then been sent to Wolverton to be completed as a service BSK. 1952 was the time of steel shortages and the building program was severely curtailed. There was probably pressure to make as much use as possible of what already existed and to keep the workshops and workers in employment. In the same way the demonstrator S15000 was converted to a service CK in 1952. Of course, this is all speculation. Hopefully more information will be uncovered that answers the gaps in what is known about the prototypes.

19 hours ago, Bomag said:

As I pointed out the first three coaches were built before the BR lot numbering started - 14th December as per Peter Hall. For the SK and CK, the coaches were incorporated into the BR numbering system and subsequent coaches carried on the numbering system. This did not happen for the BTK so the first production coach was a duplicate '34000'. This was almost certainly an error; but it is is still obvious as 34095 (Built Derby) was merged with Wolverton built lot.

 

It is interesting that after CK 15000 was built next one delivered was 15021 which was seen before the end of 1950 (15001-15020 wasn't built until 1952/53).     

So if I am understanding you right, you are saying there were 3 prototypes - BTK, CK & TK (presumably M24000)? This is the first time I've seen this mentioned anywhere that a TK was amongst the Mk1 prototypes. Do you have anything to support this?

I would think the reason an LMS lot number was used for the prototype was that the first BR lot numbers weren't issued until 12/50.

Bob Reid of this parish has previously sent me a list of early Mk1 wiring drawings he has access to. I hope he doesn't mind me copying the list here. As you can see there are 2 other LMS lot numbers mentioned. The Type A etc was an early form of classification - see Parkin appendix 2a.

Drg SC/DE/44853  Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor First Type 'A' (17/4/50)
Drg SC/DE/44854  Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor Composite Type 'B' - Lot No.1627 (12/4/50)
Drg SC/DE/44855  Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor Brake Third Type 'E' - Lot No.1626 & 1630 (22/4/50)
Drg SC/DE/44856  Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Open Cars Types 'G' & 'H' (12/6/50)
Drg SC/DE/44858  Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Open Cars Types 'J' & 'K' (7/7/50)
Drg SC/DE/44860  Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor Third Type 'C' (23/6/50)
Drg SC/DE/44861  Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor Brake Composite Type 'D' (28/4/50)
Drg SC/DE/44909  Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - 58ft Brake Van (5/7/50)

To answer your question, I don't think M34000 was the experimental vehicle built under LMS lot 1626. My best guess is that it was an incomplete vehicle not intended for service. However when it's experimental use was over, it was not wasted but used to make a production BTK in 1952 (M34095). Likewise S15000 was built as a demonstrator with both open seating and compartments and never entered service as such. It was rebuilt into something more like a more standard CK in 1952 but retained uneven compartment widths.

There is evidence that LMS lots 1627 and 1630 were attributed to Mk1 CK & BTK respectively.

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I never realised there was this thread.

 

I am in the process of making the Cravens second open and the Doncaster second corridor. I my research I found out the Doncaster coaches didn't have the Mk1 continuous curve profile but one more akin to a Thompson coach.

 

The Cravens is being made from a Tri-ang sleeper coach.

 

The Doncaster coach has scratchbuilt sides.

The Cravens prototypes also didn't have a continuous body-side curve, but were flattened around the window area.

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Now, a request from me, please.

 

Does anyone know exactly where this is?

 

 

Apologies for the poor scan.

 

The date is most-likely Saturday September 9th 1961, and MALLARD is returning on the 'Elizabethan' set, having worked the last Down non-stop the day before. The headboard is turned round, and the train will have stopped at Newcastle (for a crew change?).

 

But where exactly is it on the ECML? The shadows suggest the Home Counties (towards the end of the train's journey). 

 

Is that a bridge reconstruction in the background - road widening?

 

Any help greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Hi Tony,

I think that might be approaching the old Stevenage station and the bridge in the background would be the Stevenage Bypass then under construction, and now part of the A1(M).

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Brilliant...

a quick flickr brings this image May 1973 (still 2 lots of Pre-Tops numbers) one each end.

(not my image)

 

so within a few posts its narrowed down to..

 

May 73- Feb 74 if pre-Tops

Feb 74 - June 74 if Tops.

 

Personally I think its Tops, based on the removal of one pre-Tops bodyside number..

I could only imagine that being done, when it was given its Tops number.

 

So 16th Feb - 8th June 74..

 

(just for fun I put that road cleaners plate in an online check.. JDN513L doesnt exist digitally, unsurprisingly ;-)

 

1E05 with a BG behind the loco is the Sunday 10:00 Edinburgh-KX (The Monday to Saturday Flying Scotsman had a BFK). Prior to 6th May 1974 the equivalent 1E05 09:40 Edinburgh-KX would have been Mk1 stock (except for 1st July to 19th Aug 1973). With the TOPS number that narrows it down to Sunday 12th May to 2nd June 1974.

On 07/03/2021 at 18:25, mark54 said:

The diagram 31 Griddle cars were introduced in 1966 and there is a photo in one of the photo books (can't think where at the moment) of one in maroon livery and retaining it's heavy duty BR bogies. By 01/01/1969 all were in blue/grey livery and had their original bogies replaced by B5 ones.

Robert Carroll (Robertcwp) has come to my rescue for a maroon Diagram 31. The book is On Scottish Lines by Derek Penney - Page 75 at Carmont.

1 hour ago, Davexoc said:

According to Longworth,

 

Ashford/Eastleigh build on Commonwealth bogies

2 bays in buffet saloon

Diag. 30 - M1100 08/60-12/77 preserved

                  W1101 11/60-04/78 scrapped 10/80

                 SC1102 12/60-10/80 scrapped 07/83

 

Doncaster build on BR1 bogies converted from Diag. 16 RF built 1952

3 bays in buffet saloon

Diag. 31 - SC1103 06/64-11/79 scrapped 10/80

                  SC1104 07/63-11/79 preserved

                  SC1105 06/64-11/79 preserved

 

So I guess this livery is ficticious....

 

I don't know where Longworth got his Diagram 31 introduction dates but the following is in The May 1966 Railway Observer in the Coaching Stock section:

"Conversions: SC1103/4/5 (Griddle RB) formely W301/2/5 (order unknown) rebuilt Wolverton 1966 from RF"

The diagram 31 Griddle cars were introduced in 1966 and there is a photo in one of the photo books (can't think where at the moment) of one in maroon livery and retaining it's heavy duty BR bogies. By 01/01/1969 all were in blue/grey livery and had their original bogies replaced by B5 ones.

14 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

Okay - we can now clarify :

 

E34482 - BSK, E4269 - TSO, E34476 - BSK, E4326 - TSO, E13635 - FK, E4293 - TSO, E13100 - FK, E15694 (maroon CK), E34731 - BSK, E4306 - TSO, E4291 - TSO, E9215 - BSO,  (This looks like something with lots of portions - a Bradford/Leeds express with a Hull portion??)

 

E25693, ( maroon SK - this probably goes with the subsequent train, but cut off from the rest of the train by a BG is very odd marshalling. Tacked on  at the front of a BSO is hardly much better) 

 

E80967 (BG - originally allocated to LMR) , E13125 - FK, E11 -RFO;  E80001 - RK, E1000 - RSO, E25021 - SK, E25040 SK, E25023 SK,   (Lots of catering but seemingly only an 8 coach express? Could this be something very prestigious like the KX-Edinburgh "non-stop" ??? The presence of 2 maroon Mk1s hints it's getting the best stock available)

 

The block of 5 non-gangwayed stock is a coherent inner suburban train, and the block of E-suffix numbers looks like another complete train - that tells against the theory he has recorded coaches from alternating sides of the platform . In any case it would be much easier just to walk down the platform taking the numbers from the coaches one after another, then walk back taking the numbers on the other side. You'd have to do that in walking from the barrier to the country end of the platform and back, anyway

 

E16475E  BTK  ; E13440E all 3rd  ; E21746E ex NER vehicle ; E11182E, all first? ; E9154E Buffet car Dia 185 , conv frm Gresley all 3rd; E13398E, E13344E,  all thirds ;E16286E BTK, E16182E BTK,

 

The information that the ex NER coach is annotated B is interesting. Brown is a bit surprising at so late a date, and the practice of painting pre-grouping  coaches in LNER brown , not the appropriate BR livery, until withdrawal is reported on the GE Section, but nowhere else as far as I know. 

 

Are we possibly looking at a record of a Cambridge Buffet Car Express here?? That would account for the pre-nationalisation stock - the Cambridge trains were certainly a second-division main line service - and if the train had originated on the GE at Cambridge then the appearance of a pre-grouping vehicle in brown is a lot more understandable. I believe quite a few NER bogie coaches were transferred to the GE in the 1930s. A pre-grouping veteran in a mainline train at KX in 1956 is eye-opening to start with, but a stand-in on a Cambridge train is one of the more reasonable scenarios . The catering provision also seems appropriate.

 

The final BTK might well be part of the next train:

 

 E16182E BTK,  Then: E15587 - Mk1 CK, E9248 - BSO, E24156 - SK, E24211-  SK,   

 

It still doesn't quite make sense as there are only 5 coaches, but we seem to have two short portions, each with a brake. Possibly this is waiting for the rest of the train to be made up with stock from another incoming working ??  (I've just noticed this actually mirrors the last 5 coaches of the first train discussed, though with an LNER BTK replacing a Mk1 BSK - which makes the portion theory look more plausible)

A couple of comments:

The 8 coaches with a triple dining set was almost certainly part of the Heart of Midlothian – 14:00 KX-Edinburgh. A quick google of 18th Dec 1956 indicates it was a Tuesday. Looking at the ECML winter 1956 carriage workings, the formation leaving KX should have been BSO, CK, SK, SK, SK, RSO, RK, RFO, FK, BG, CK, BSO, the last 2 coaches were detached at Newcastle.  Possibly some of the CK & BSO quoted completed the train.

E21746E was an ex-NER buffet car conversion. Steve Banks website has photos confirming that it was in brown livery at that time. A bit odd with 2 buffet cars if it was one set. It is unlikely to be a Cambridge Buffet Express set as these would have had some Mk1 stock in by 1956 and the usual buffet cars were either a Tourist Car or an ex-GN conversion.

As it is under the 90MPH lettering, I could guess it stands for Special Maintenance.

Phil, there is some interior film of the bar area  and standing area in this Pathe film, that may be useful. It is the last feature. You can also view as stills which is useful.

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/railway-rolling-stock-exhibition-at-marylebone/query/railway+stock

23 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Thats great Mark thanks for dropping in. Was working from the 1970 BR passenger fleet rolling stock list and misread it, most are AB but some not listed as such so assumed they were dual. Would they be VB only at that stage ... all on B5 bogies and dual heat? Was aware the V hangers went with ab only so if The non Ab ones are still vb then I am ok.

 

That Robert Carroll link was indeed the one I used .... just missing the bent over pipes, are they tank breathers?

 

As for the windows how can I not have noticed that? The issue would be losing the quarterlights if I file them out but I may have some full size replacements with quarter lights I could use ...Will report back.

 

Its a minefield ... thanks for clarification 

Phil, Looking at the 1970 fleet list, anything not marked AB you can take to be VB. All the LMR's are DH but the ER has some VB SH and the WR one VB SH in 1553 and two VB DH in 1552 & 1500, the latter erroneously not listed.

The roof vents positions in your model photo don't look quite right, probably because of the off-centre perspective of the roof in Robert's photo. The 2 dome-ridge vents (one is a scallop dome replacement in Robert's photo) at the bar end should be on the roof centre line as should the circular one near the centre of the coach and the 2 ridge-dome ones over the pantry and staff compartment. The bent over pipes are tank breathers.

Phil, as far as I know there were no dual braked RKB. Most had received air brakes by the mid-70s, although a few retained vacuum brakes. Another complication is that the air braked ones seemed to lose the triangular brackets together with their vacuum brakes. The shorter brake cross shaft subsequently only went across the trussing.

I also hate to point out that there is an error in that SP etch. The 2 windows on the corridor side adjacent to the bar should be full size, not 3/4 size. You could try and increase the size by careful filing. This John Dedman photo illustrates both these points.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/48742357262/in/photolist-2km17Xi-edt8bA-fz961W-e7Z3A9-bixhAi-2jDexEW-aqj21n-jiMcBM-2hgcjE3-TZDtmk-dt2ARL-27ziCe3-Av5AQ1-GEgT86-FJJz3L-FJJQ6m-9SMzfd-XhXTqE-nQxoEv-26tKeo1-sDvwkg-nXK442-oyno4v-y18DP7-FyxpJU-Y1AYHr-p8rK1u-yzJACp-oSZqam-2gbecPD-2gbecRY-y1fvjr-vPGbLG-2efMdRo-RspW6g-sAJNCC

For roof retail this Robert Carroll photo is useful

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4838977272/in/album-72157603653607671/

14 hours ago, robertcwp said:

I'm thinking of a different photo which shows only carriages, the BFK and a couple of FOs if I recall correctly.

I think you are referring to one on the Science and Society site - 2 Mk1 FO's and an LMS BFK furthest away. It has also appeared in Steam World magazine a few years ago. I would have said this and the one in your photo must be a porthole as the pre-war BFK didn't have an intermediate corridor door.

The door that Brian refers to was built with a dual use function. The prototype Mk1 RB had been built with 2 external doors – one for passenger use and one for staff. The design with a transverse bar allowed space for 2 doors. On the production Mk1 RB the bar was changed to be longitudinal and there was no longer space for 2 doors. Instead, there was a single door with a small lobby behind leading to an internal roller shutter door to separate if from the bar.

When they were refurbished and re-coded RBR from 1976 onwards, the lobby was removed and the space became part of the bar area. The external door was now for staff use only and marked with a Kitchen label and the door glass painted body colour.

J2968 at Essendine in July 72, from the formation, was the 09:25 from Leeds-KX. In addition to the 8 coaches seen, there should have been a 3 coach 08:50 Halifax portion on the end - TSO, CK, BSO.

C1004 - I presume on the same day and from the consist, was the Friday 09:05 Newcastle-KX the Tees-Type Pullman (only 4 Pullmans rather than 5 Mon-Thurs plus a 5th TSO - which you can just make out in the photo it is Mk2a to add to the usual 4 Mk2d TSOs). The Mk1 catering vehicle is Griddle Car RG E1102 which was used as a 1st class bar and 2nd class buffet.

On 23/10/2020 at 06:54, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

On that page also, the un-identified car at the unknown location is at Sheffield Midland, and is definitely not W9135E.

 

Mike.

The buffet car at Sheffield Midland is diagram 275 E9195E which in rebuilt form looked very similar to a standard diagram 167 car.

All M to E vehicles will be listed, but not in a list together. 

E3499M is listed as extant 09/54 to 11/61 with the previous number of the vehicle 5496 most recently, and 7019. Noted as motor fitted. Under M5496M it notes renumbered M3499M in 09/54.

I presume the renumbering was when it was motor fitted and also when it was transferred but it is not entirely clear. Not sure this helps you!

13 hours ago, Jub45565 said:

 

Apologies for going off at a tangent - but does the Longworth book (I think GWR & LMS share a volume?) also cover which LMS stock got (re)registered to the North Eastern region when created in 1957? (Not specifically enquiring about TPO vehicles here).

The books are basically a list of coaching stock against which introduction/withdrawal dates and known regional transfers are annotated. Eastern & North Eastern coaching stock was not separately identified (E prefix) except for a short period in the mid-60's when there was a NE prefix too.

18 hours ago, ScRSG said:

I think it may simply be the addition of a genuine Guards compartment and nothing to do with GPO requirements - the railways being full of such requirements!

If you look very closely at the last picture, there is definitely some writing on the door and I would expect it to be "Guard"

I agree. If the train only consisted of 4 postal coaches, then guards accommodation would be required. For the service, 3 coaches with guards accommodation would be required - one each for the northbound and southbound trains and one spare.

In this John Whiteley photo at Perth, you can just make out the 4th coach with guards ducket and recess for nets

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126693116@N06/20326746724/in/photolist-wYcTCq-QGo8c8-LPHAJu-Yp3Zns-GZbdUh-kPk6md-2hD349j-gPgJiF-bh4MGV-wjFs72-SQitmx-e894DW-2dxZZou-jDdmLU-2icyCTx-2hiKE9P-2iA7g2y-T8h1gL-2fKQrih-b8SQ98-Zq2Hv4-e7MPFu-SZeM8P-NQ16M3-2b1ggmh-2bvGHTM-jDcvP4-24s25Np-pS1qH9-rgjnnW-pAmw1v-Trkjdn-24koSyH-pBFotK-h1YDVc-dv7PkX-NwbBVh-2hsQ7jq-h27VWf-pBJHJR-qP9Yke-dTsM4M-29grFPg-pTW7RP-2b1dSRx-rtoiVn-8QLmTi-vunWLx-qNQAg5-owhdto

Definitely 2 different types. The SR one has small windows under the can trail on both sides - the GWR ones do not have any, The SR one has centrally placed roof vents, evenly spaced - and the GWR ones have offset vents grouped in 2's and 3's.

Thank you for posting the photos. That is an ex-SR POT. According to An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, M4957S was transferred to the LMR in 4/62 . There is a photo as well showing the extra door that it gained and ROYAL MAIL on the right-hand panel.  The model must be of this.

34 minutes ago, ScRSG said:

 

Yes, and can also be seen at the end of the train in the picture in the third post above. I remember corresponding with, I think, Jackson Evans to see if they knew anything of the history but they couldn't help. It did occur that the coach may be of LNWR origin but still haven't found any evidence. The model was made purely from reference to photos.

Solved it now. I was thrown by the model as it doesn't have provision for nets although we are looking at the equipment side.

The coach in the photo above is a GWR diagram 21 57ft POT. 794 & 795 were transferred to the LMR in 1960 according to Longworth. However it looks as if a guards door and ducket was added in the centre of the coaches on transfer, as earlier photos when on the WR, do not have them. (These probably replaced pre-grouping side gangway BG's). If the model on Alloa purports to be one of the GWR ones that were transferred, then it is not right, as we are looking at the gangway side which should have a recess for the provision of nets.