magmouse

I don't recall ever getting into this level of detail, in terms of the construction of ropes. For most purposes in theatre, there are 'hemps' (hemp ropes of about 3/4 inch diameter) and 'sash' (cord originally used for sash windows, but now a term used for any small rope/cord around 1/3rd inch diameter). In theatre, just as you only really need 3 or 4 knots, you only need a couple of types of rope. All the serious rigging has moved to steel wire, webbing slings and the like, to meet H&S regulations. Nick (I'm sure @woko will be along soon with another amazing 3D print, to claim his bench back!)

And in the RCH documentation of the colour codes - see https://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12854&sid=b443085dcd80727b92ba0e97ec1f09bb#p12854 Nick.

I saw that email discussion - and pointed out that the GWR "one white and two green strand" colour scheme ought to be reasonably visible in photos, at least as one slightly darker strand compared to the other two. I've looked at a few photos and can see no trace, so I am not too worried my models also show no trace... Despite my comments above, I feel the P4/S7 folks really should do this if they are really taking their modelling seriously! Oh, wait, that's me... Nick.

Also worth noting that a vehicle like this would have had the wheels chocked as well as ropes round the axles. I have found it hard to find really clear pictures of how this was done, but these might help: https://www.gettyimages.ca/photos/lorry-trailer-james-schoolbred?family=editorial&assettype=image&phrase=lorry trailer James schoolbred Nick.

Railway ropes were pretty much standardised at 75 feet long and 2.5 inch circumference. In 7mm scale, 0.5mm is pretty close. The bit that is harder to model is the coloured thread(s) or strand(s) identifying the railway company - in the pre-grouping period, each company had its own colour code, agreed with the Railway Clearing House. For the GER, it was one red strand. Possibly a detail too far.... Nick.

I’d recommend rigging cord, used by the ship modellers - it’s almost hairless, comes in a variety of thicknesses, and the ‘natural’ colour is good for rope. See, for example: https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Model-Boat-Fittings-Rigging-Thread.html Nick.

Since we are doing asides... I think to folks at the Theatre Royal, Bristol (1766) would claim they had the oldest theatre in continuous use, beating the young upstarts in Lancaster by 16 years. Looking forward to more brewery photos when you have them - Nick.

Good points, both, but remember this plan is a mix of “how can I accurately represent the mix of wagons there would have been?” and “ooh! I fancy one of those, how can I justify it?” So the S&DJR wagon will be the type similar to a D299, but with round ends and a wooden sheet supporter - I think I can use the Slaters kit as a basis. As to the Cambrian 2-plank, who can resist a wagon with feathers painted on the side? That’s a thought - I’ll consider that for the coal wagon mix. Always nice to have an excuse for another livery. Nick.

Well, the current plan involves: 24 GWR general merchandise wagons - 2 vans, 10 4-plank opens and a sprinkling of 1, 2, 3, 5 and 7-plank opens. This is broadly representative of the GWR fleet in my period. 5 with unidentified sheeted loads, others carrying casks, timber, straw, hay. 7 GWR non-revenue wagons - 5 loco coal (too many, but there are 5 types I want to model, and I need both full and empty), a Cordon gas tank and a ballast wagon to bring sand and remove ash. 4 LSWR wagons - one van, 2 opens and a double bolster. This is a bit random based on available kits and RTR models, and your comments make me think I need to review this. 2 MR D299s - one bringing coal, one beer in casks from Burton. 1 S&DJR open - agricultural produce 1 SER van, bringing bottled beer from Kent 1 Cambrian 2-plank bring roofing slates from north Wales various wagons bringing things related to the engineering works - not yet full planned, but so far I'm thinking of a pair of GWR single bolsters with steel plate and/or rolled sections, a GWR or possibly MR or LNWR open bringing pig iron for the foundry, an LNWR sheeted open bring miscellaneous components from the Midlands/north. As noted above, I am still working out the situation with coal, but it will be a mix of MR (D299 as noted above), local merchant, colliery and (possibly) coal factors' wagons. So the main thing this discussion has made me want to rethink is the LSWR representation - thanks for the prompt to do that. I might need to do some scratch-building. I also think I might do a blog post to unpack all this in more detail. Nick.

Nah, Stephen is only the pusher. D299s are just the gateway drug - before you know it, you'll move on to MR 3-plankers, a van or two, then an agricultural implement truck, and after that... Nick.

I'm working on the basis all traffic is in GWR wagons, unless: it is local traffic that might originate from other nearly railways, specifically agricultural produce (fruit, veg, etc) from LSWR and S&DJR starting points, and brick and clay pipes from the nearest clay pits/brickworks, presumed to be in LSWR territory. it is distant traffic that is specifically identified as prototypical: beer (MR, LNWR from Burton, possibly SER from Canterbury) and coal (PO, MR from the midlands or S. Wales*) - as discussed above. materials for the engineering works I am planning - pig iron for casting, plate and rolled sections - could be GWR or other S. Wales railways, or MR/LNWR/others from Midlands and the north. All this is based on a Dorset coast location, around where the real Bridport is, but a counter-factual in which the town is larger and especially its harbour more developed as a route to Northern France and Paris, and has an engineering works, mainly doing marine engineering but also some architectural and general work. Set in 1908. Wagon stock is based on the above thinking, but there will be more than 3% other companies, on the basis that I don't run all the non-GWR stock at once. Rather, the GWR stock represents the majority, 'every day' traffic, with the occasional 'foreigner' appearing to illustrate different types of more distant traffic. So the stock won't follow a 3% rule, but the operation will (or at least a percentage justified by the back-story). Also to say - I am really enjoying your statistical analysis approach, David. Even allowing for the unknowns, it helps us work through what is realistically justifiable. Nick. * Coal - I need to do some more research and thinking on this. My chosen location is at a point where coal might arrive by rail from e.g. south Wales, the midlands, etc., but also by sea from south Wales or from the north-east. It's not impossible that coal could be both inbound and outbound rail traffic - local coal merchants chasing either to have coal delivered direct by rail for local use, or by sea for distribution to nearby towns by rail.

For places near the boundaries between railway company 'territories', even the local traffic might come in the wagons of more than one company. And of course the country wasn't divided neatly into areas - railway networks crossed over, so there might be alternative routes by different companies that mixed things up. For my fictional Dorset coast setting, I am working on the basis that most local traffic is GWR (I am modelling a GWR line) but there will also be some LSWR traffic, since there are LSWR lines nearby - certainly well within your 60 mile radius. Nick.

Fair enough - all a question of which compromises to choose, and at what cost. In modelling as in life! Nick.

Agreed - or P4, of course. And always assuming you aren't going to fully commit to 7mm scale, as you know you really should... Nick.

@Aire Head - that's a very useful list. Where did it come from, please? Nick.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have finalised the artwork, at least for the time being, until further information comes to light. It is available here for anyone who wants to use it: Nick.

I’m not sure if my response to that is Like, Agree, Funny or (circle of) Applause, so take this as a bit of each… If we only modelled what we can see in photos, us pre-grouping types would have to build monochrome layouts. Nick

I have just tried folding the sheet with my current artwork. The result is the small, upside-down number appears on the outside - it really needs to be just a little closer to the edge of the sheet to do that. I used the folding method described here: It is the 1936 LMS method, but it seems a reasonable approach and was likely based on practices going back to the first uses of sheets. With the described method, any writing on the ends of the sheets would be hidden - what is on the outside of the sheet when folded is the middle section of one long edge. Alternatively, you get the back/underside of the centre strip. Of course, we have no idea what might have been on the back of the sheets - certainly the GWR sheets around this time had the sheet number on the back near the long edge, so if the sheet was folded up to reduce the overhang when on a low-sided wagon, the number would be visible. Nick.

Thanks, Stephen. Regarding full length stripe vs end numbering, in the, er, red corner we have: Excerpt from https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcs1503.htm This shows the strip going to the end, although there does seem to be a gap in it - was there text there that ids now invisible due to dirt and wear? Or do we just not see the red stripe in this section for some reason? Similarly in the photo you linked to, there is no sign of lettering on the end of the sheet, while the other lettering is reasonably clear. In the blue corner, we have this drawing: From http://igg.org.uk/rail/9-loads/9-tarps.htm Which is similar to (derived from?) the drawing in Cross and Essery's article in HMRS Journal volume 16 no 6, p.204-209. So far, I have seen no photographic evidence for numbers on the end, or indeed dates on the side as shown in these drawings. My artwork is therefore based on what I can see in photos that are roughly in the period I am interested in, limited as that is. Regarding the size of the sheet, I note Mike @airnimal's statement that LNWR sheets were 19' 6" X 15' 5" before 1910: though he doesn't say where this info is from. Cross and Essery don't give dimensions for LNWR sheets, but their drawing suggests they were shorter and wider than the later standard of 21' x 14'4". I am currently building a D84 5-plank open, and in a little bit of experimental archeology, I have found the 19'6" sheet to be inconveniently short for an 18' OH wagon - no wonder the sheet size changed after 1910 as these wagons became increasingly common. Spacing and positioning of the lettering is based on photos, following your lead in @Penlan's thread, linked to in my first post. It is curious, but clearly the case, that the space between the left edge and the L is larger than that between the right edge and the W. I haven't yet done the 'fold up' test, though I suspect my design will fail.... Nick.

I am working on artwork for LNWR wagon sheets, in the 1900-1910 period. I haven't yet found a clear photo showing the whole of the writing on the sheets, so I am working from glimpses here and there. The best one is here: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcs1503.htm There has been some discussion of the topic previously, notably here: (though this discussion is limited in usefulness by the loss of the images), and here: So my question is, does anyone have anything to add to what has already been discussed? My artwork in draft form is below, and it would be great to have any further information, especially regarding the general layout, and the letter and number forms - some of the digits are my own interpretation, based on the overall style, as I don't have pictures showing all the digits. Once I have this as good as it is going to get, I will of course be happy to share the artwork. Nick.

And the same good wishes right back to you, Stephen! Thanks for starting and hosting this thoroughly enjoyable and informative thread. That is a wonderful picture - somehow feeling much more recent than 1908. I think it is the somewhat ‘snapshot’-like viewpoint and composition, quite different to the considered, formal choices of most official photos. One feels the scene just appealed to the photographer, so he shot it, with no requirement to do so or purpose in mind. Now, a hundred and fifteen years later, we share his delight in what he saw, and a human connection is made across time and space. Happy Christmas, everyone! Nick.

A 7-year hire with a mid-contract repaint? If only at the end of each aisle there was an inspector and a repair hut, where defective trollies would be stopped and have their errant wheels fixed. Nick.

I don't think we should necessarily assume that the current load is the one that stained the wagon. In the full picture, there are another two wagons in the rake with a similar load to 45964 - something that packs level, and seems to be in block form. The next wagon has some heaped, loose material, and 3 more beyond that which are hard to determine, but possibly more bricks/blocks. This photo was discussed previously in this thread, and @Compound2632 made a model of one of the other GWR 4-plankers in the rake that has the staining just on the door - presumed to have run down the outside face of the door while the door was hanging down, open. The load in Stephen's model is Calstock fire bricks - see Nick.

There is a drawing of a 3-plank wagon in Lavender's Railway Equipment Drawings. It is based on the drawing in the Proceedings of the "Proceedings of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers" 1884 Plate 68, online here: https://archive.org/details/proceedings1884inst/page/n727/mode/2up (the plates are at the back, so scroll to near the end). Tavender notes that his drawing is modified to "agree with photos no. 3867 in GWR Appendix 1936" (page 234 of the appendix). Lavender's drawing also shows the alternative round/raised end, and gives the number 36067 for this - he doesn't give a source for that info, however. @Chrisbr - do you have the register for 36067? As @Mikkel notes, photos of the round ended type seem to be frustratingly distant. Another example is in GWR Goods Services Vol 2B, page 301, which has a photo of Devonport Goods Depot, no date given but the shed was opened in 1903. The photo shows three-plank wagon No. 3661, still with round ends - excerpt: Mikkel has previously noted other sightings in the same book series: (from: Nick.

Not a link, but see also fig 4 of Russell's Freight Wagons and Loads in Service on the GWR. Also, wagon 6117 you linked to pictures of has, I think, bulb section solebars, not flitched. Note the C-section headstocks, and the blocks under the solebars to support the bearing spring shoes. There is a drawing of a 3-plank wagon in "Proceedings of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers" 1884 Plate 68, online here: https://archive.org/details/proceedings1884inst/page/n727/mode/2up (note the plates are at the back, so you need to scroll through to page 737 of the PDF) Nick.