HGR

5 hours ago, guzzler17 said:

 

Not quite zero, according to the RPS data, which shows the mainline buffer stops at Kings Cross being at

 

0-02  Platforms 1 to 8

0-03  Platform 0

 

I don't suppose many people would worry about the slightly shorter journey to / from the Cross.

IIRC zero at KX was the end wall of the trainshed building, so the buffer stops would be some distance back behind the concourse / ticket barriers. Slightly more now they have the sliding friction types in place of the fixed ones that used to be directly in front of the headwall at the end of the platform. As a comparison if your RPS data has it, there used to be a 1/4 milepost just before you entered the western bore of Gasworks Tunnel on the down side, the portal of which is 0-22 according to the structures list.

When you compare mileages quoted in P-Way records and Sectional Appendix line diagrams there are many places a chain or two different for no obvious reason. Structures such as buildings, bridges, tunnels, etc. tend not to move around, but junctions can 'move' from time to time as trackwork layouts are changed. Likewise station DPs can be amended if platforms are added or taken out of use and affect the extents / mid-point of the station. The p-way people used to paint chain numbers on the web of one of the running rails so you knew where you were in-between quarter mileposts. Around Darlington for example these have been replaced by equivalent Metric figures painted on the rail web every ten metres. 

23 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I went to York a few times back in the 1980s, and spent a few hours at Holgate Junction. I remember taking photos

from down near track level, so I was probably on the old cattle dock then? The photos of mine I have found so far 

do not show either of the signs but I reckon I must have seen them back then.

I have had a quick look through Flickr, there are loads of photos taken in the area, but I have not found any with the signs,

 

cheers 

Yep, spent many a joyous hour / day on there in the mid-late '70s - early '80s, or sometimes on the opposite Up Excursion platform side if the gate on Holgate was left open. At least on that side you could soak up some sun, instead of being in the shade cast by the overbridge.

There's many photo's taken from the cattle dock of passing locos / trains, but of course you don't see what was behind the photographer. Also some from the opposite side of the line - I've been carefully zooming in on these to try to see if anything on the dock (or south of the bridge) is visible that looks like the zero post, but no joy so far. In a fair few, the larger white Holgate Junction sign is visible in shots taken from the up excursion platform, or the grey back of the sign if it's a shot taken from the alley off Cambridge Street (the sign was moved around electrification time and is now on the east side of the lines, visible from this location).  

On 30/04/2024 at 08:16, guzzler17 said:

 

Railway Performance Society mileage data from 2010 shows the zero post at 188m 07ch and the junction sign at 188m 12ch.

 

If it helps the overbridge is at 188m 10ch.

Thanks for those. They are the present-day / post- Selby diversion mileages, still measured zero at King's X but now via Colton Jn instead of direct from Selby to Challoners Whin Jn. Depending on which list you're looking at it adds about 27 - 29 ch to the original mileages. The structures list I have for ECM4 gives 'Holgate Junction' as yours at 188-07, bridge 4 Holgate Br. as 188-09. The distance you have for the sign is where it now lives on the east side of the main line. It's visible on Google Earth - I hadn't realised it's installed at an angle to the track.

MP 188 (the new yellow one) was just to the north of what we used to call 'Dicky bridge' - the footbridge (Br. no.5) that connected the excursion platforms with Love Lane but now links that to the housing estate on the west of the line. It's visible in some Flickr images. Only remember seeing one on the up side of the main line, no sign of one on the down side though. Before 1983 the old NER style mileposts on the up side of the ECML around there were Normanton mileages, off a zero at York station. As York via the Selby diversion is now 188-40, the new MPs each quarter are pretty much in the same places as the old ones on the up side, but counting the opposite way, so there used to be a NER 1/2 MP at Love Lane bridge slightly further back up the embankment than where the yellow 188 MP presently stands. I assume all of the Normanton MPs were removed in / by 1983, but before that they used to confuse some train logging friends occasionally if they were looking out of the wrong side ! For example there was a 1/2 MP on the up side just before the bridge to the south of Dringhouses yard, but you then passed a very prominent 187 King's X MP on the down side as you blasted through the curve through Dringhouses on the down. There was a 1/2 MP right next to a ballast bin on the down to the south of Holgate Excursion / Love Lane footbridge, but no sign of the corresponding 3/4 that would be somewhere near Holgate overbridge.  

Present-day mileage 188-07 is around about where the bottom of the crossover finishes that you would have used if coming off York Yard South on the Doncaster Goods and ending all the way over on the Up Holgate / Excursion (eg. for a slow trip to Dringhouses). Can't think of anything else that is level with that mileage ? The zero post was listed on the NER line diagrams as 187-60.68 (by old mileage), which would be around 188-10 now. I've scoured loads of Flickr images around that area near the bridge and can see the newer 'Holgate Junction' enamelled sign on the two tubular posts just north of the bridge on the cattle dock, but not the old cast iron one in the grass anywhere to be seen ???? 

Been grazing the Internet and came across a photo of the NER zero post that used to be on the grass bank next to Holgate Bridge / cattle dock where all of the enthusiasts used to congregate. The photo is dated 1977 and shows just the zero post in the grass bank and with clean white paint / black lettering, nothing to reference it's exact location to though. The line ref on the plate looks to be Y.G. & M., I'm thinking York Goods and Mineral ?

There was also a large rectangular BR era white enamelled sign on tubular metal posts at right angles to the track marking the junction location.

My question please - can anyone remember seeing both, and know where the zero post and the later sign were relative to each other ?

After electrification, this area was cleared and the 'modern' junction sign placed over to the east / UP side of the ECML, but further north / nearer the station than the original location because of changes to the pointwork / rationalisation of the lines in around that area.

There was also a NER style 3/4 milepost apparently tucked back in the corner next to the bridge north abutment but I've never seen it though its location is shown on contemporary OS maps. The original (L)NER line diagrams (available from NERA) show the 3/4 as originally on the south side of Holgate Bridge.

Vehicles only originally had lamp irons if they were allowed / expected to be last in the train. What that meant was that when guards were permitted to ride in the rear cab of the loco, and brakevans were dispensed with, many fitted vehicles had to have lamp irons added ... often done locally with a liberal element of positional (un)accuracy thrown in for good measure (no pun intended - I'll get me coat !).

Vehicles conveying explosive / flammable / hazardous loads that required the special Bardic battery-electric tail lamps had specially modified lamp irons with a ridge up the back that prevented ordinary naked flame paraffin oil lamps being used. At least that was the intention - back in the '80s I've seen one or two sets of bogie tanks coming off the Phillips Petroleum trip with an oil lamp hanging on the rear drawhook ! Also a report of one of the trips getting propelled into the loading siding with an oil lamp still on the end, hopefully quickly removed and extinguished by the site personnel.

Vehicles that shouldn't ever be the last one in a train, because of requirements for barrier vehicles, etc. never had, and remained without lamp irons. Other than the later day pic above, I only ever saw the PXV / PXX with a 20T freight brakevan at either end if it wasn't between the escort coaches. 

I was grazing the Internet for that same pic, just couldn't remember where I'd seen it and used the wrong search term.

It looked a lot better when I saw it at Shildon - more pale blue than outdoor storage algae green !

What I'm not sure on is at what date it was through-wired for ETH. Should have taken a photo' or more notice of it at Shildon I guess. The ETH was jumpered up from the bogies to the body corners, to run along conduit on the the top of the side girders.

Attached are B.R. Private Owner Freight Stock (book 6) dia. 6/412. Also issue 2 of PX 010 A (original issue is in the copy on Barrowmore MRG web-site), and PX 010 B.

BR 6-412.pdf PX 010 B iss 1.pdf PX 010 A iss 2.pdf

Built by Head Wrightson 1963. Their name was on an enormous relief plate on the centre of the wagon side.

Was for the Admiralty, as a 'hot core' transporter for nuclear submarines (HMS Dreadnought I guess at that time) to work between Devonport or Rosyth and Sellafield.

Registered by B.R. N.E. region (presumably as built on Teesside ?) as originator's number 457, given B.R. private owner number MOD 66660. P.O. wagon book 6 diagram number 412 : M.O.D. (Royal Navy) Wagon for Conveyance of Nuclear Cores  (G.L.W. 185 Ton).

As built it had vacuum brake, and tare just shy of 90 T, carrying capacity 95 T. Diagram in feet & inches of course.

Later '70s, TOPS gave it AARKND code PXV D and design code PX 010 A (the diagram from SED Freightman above is an extract of the original issue of that diagram). Now re-numbered MODA 95780 and re-rated in Metric as 188 tonnes GLW, 96,600 kg carrying capacity, 91,350 kg tare.  

Issue 2 of the diagram added antenna restraining loop supports at either end of the wagon. From memory, I think this was a VHF wire aerial strung out between the two escort coaches over the top of the load.

It was titled  188 tonne G.L.W. Road - Railer on the diagram, which we took as alluding to its use on Thurso workings for the Douneray reactor.

Found it loitering in Shildon Wagon Works in April '84 in a livery of light blue (which we thought could have been 'light admiralty grey' when clean - which any normal person would swear is pale blue, not grey !) with a white central section on each side where the load was carried. Around that time it gained air brakes, becoming dual-braked PXX D, design code PX 010 B. Diagram title now simply stated 188 tonne G.L.W. Transporter.

It was limited to 35 mph (originally 15 mph when loaded, but later permitted 35 mph under any loading condition), but the real kicker was that TOPS yielded RA 10 regardless of whether loaded or empty.

In 1990 the 'P' group was moved to 'K' so this wagon became KMX D, design code KM 010 B.

Then sometime in the mid '90s it lost the vac brake becoming air-only as KMA D, design code revised to KM 010 C.

Yes, certainly does @iands, Thanks. I didn't know the S&T were tucked away in the corner in that particular building.

That's a cracking photo with a wealth of interesting detail. More so when you compare it with later maps / photos as stuff started to evaporate over subsequent decades.

In my time, I remember the outline of the remnants of the floors of the two roundhouses being visible behind the brick P-way building. Roughly half-way between the P-way and S&T accommodation there was a small low concrete bunker, do you recall what that was all about ?

Other survivors visible in the photo ... the long building alongside the up goods loop (top-left of the roof-less roundhouse). Also, at the end of the line of buildings beyond the three-road (GNoE ?) straight shed, one was a small concrete construction and a smaller wooden hut beyond. They show up in many photo's taken from the Cinder Lane footbridge at the very top of your shot looking towards the station. These two lasted for a long time but always struck me as being somewhat out in no-mans' land as the surrounding sidings had long gone. Never saw any signs of activity / life around there.

Probably more relevant to the York Yard South 'box diagram thread I posted recently, you can see the bracket signal on the cattle dock. This stuck out over probably two sidings at best, but what road was it intended to read from ?

Ref the concrete buildings / apron the 1960's OS maps of the area show a building to the end of the siding visible at the right that is between but at a different angle to the goods lines / fruit dock, with two circular features beyond.

The roofed ends of platforms 14 and 15 / 16 are in the bottom left corner. The fruit dock is the thin platform parallel to them. Three-road straight shed at top for reference to your aerial photo'. The '70s OS map shows the building and many surrounding sidings gone. The circle at the bottom right disappeared and is where the four fruit dock sidings were entered. The circle nearest the building is still shown on the map. By the time I was around there only a load of concrete rubble and the circular pad remained at ground level. This crop shows the only image I found so far of the building (not mine) :

Taken from platform 14. The sub is the one at the south end of the middle engine line between 14 / 15. Lamp post is on platform 15 / 16.

Talk of gasometers makes me think wartime emergency gas supply for station maybe ?

On 06/07/2023 at 18:39, iands said:

Hi @HGR, yes, I'm fairly confident the brick building in the above photo is the P. Way accommodation. The S&T accommodation was of concrete type construction. 

You know how you spot random things sometimes ... grazing the Internet for 'photos of the sidings, I noticed the brick building used to have two windows either side of the two centrally positioned doors. In my later 'photo the leftmost window has become a door. Checked the neg and the other two windows to the right were still windows.

Can you describe please where the S&T were located ? I had always presumed the two sidings that ran round parallel to / in front of the Waterworks loop / Scarborough Goods lines and behind the fruit dock sidings were something to do with S&T as it appeared to be their place to abandon vehicles (such as the black tool van KDE320274 that seemed to be a long-term early '80s resident - took a few goes to id the number of that one from platform 16 back then!).

Years ago I was discussing the yard with a B.R. (P-way or S&T) chap I had bumped into on the station and he told me that the heap of concrete rubble next to the fruit dock sidings used to be a WWII shed with a couple of tanks ?? beside it. Just wish I'd thought to explore that more at the time. Their outlines show up in the Brooksbank ECML vol.2 book, and 1:1250 OS maps of the 1960s. There was a siding from YYS heading towards the end of the building but didn't appear to go into it. I've only found it visible in the background of a 1960s photo, and it appears to be three-ridge asbestos cement sheet construction ?

4 hours ago, iands said:

Hi @HGR. Is this any good? Not certain of the date but I think it is from the mid-late 70s.

York Yard South.pdf 1.34 MB · 16 downloads

Thanks for that Ian. Possibly later on the dates as there was some further simplification going on in the '80s. That looks to match how it became in 1984.

Cheers,

Martyn

Would anyone out there happen to have a copy or a sketch of the point end and signal identifications for York Yard South (YYS) box please ?

Alternatively, route learning materials through the yards from the '70s / early '80s ?

What I am looking for is the initial colour light / power operation implementation when the box was opened in 1962 to replace the mechanical box on the opposite side of the lines.

I have the NREA Signalling Centres York book (well worth a look at) and this has a diagram of the 1984 new (rationalised) layout and that of the mechanical box, but not what it was in-between. Not found anything otherwise through NREA and the Signalling Record Society so far.

@iands Thank You for the drawings. The brick building to the right behind the LOCs in this (rather poor probably 400ASA into-the-sun) shot of 46 037.

Apologies to @31A should have mentioned I have a copy of the NREA Signalling Centres York book. Yes, very interesting read. Well recommended. Will have a look for the IA Super Centres book.

Doing some research into the track layout in the triangle of lines to the west of York station alongside platform 16 after the 15 / 16 island was added as part of the 1938 station expansion and 1951 re-signalling. The signalling notice 1951-3905 (available on Signalling Record Society web-site) shows the signalled lines, including the new Fruit Dock. What I'm trying to do is identify the other lines and sidings that were between that and the Scarborough Goods lines and the goods lines coming round from Holgate to York Yard South.

25 inch OS maps held by the NLS on their web-site go up to around 1941. Yorkshire sheets CLXXIV.6 and ...10 show the area beside platform 14 being cleared in readiness for the new layout. There are a pair of curved lines drawn which look to be some of the platform face walls of 15 / 16 under construction at that time, and also a parallel pair of lines that I suspect to be (part of) the Fruit Dock. Unfortunately I've not been able to find any later maps at that scale or 1:2500 (six inch or 1:10560 / 1:10000 scale don't show individual tracks).

The York air raid maps (1942?) show some of the modifications to the layout to do with platforms 15 / 16 but interestingly the Fruit Dock is shown on one of the maps of the south end of the station in the place where it should be with the engine line between it and p16. However on the map for the north end of the station the Fruit Dock is shown in the wrong place alongside the engine line. Sections of these maps are in B. Brooksbank's book East Coast Main Line 1939 - 1959 volume 2, page 68 & 70 (found a review of it on Google Books when searching "branches yard" but bought it since - interesting read of the WWII changes to the ECML).  

There was a thread running on here in 2020 titled York 1985(ish) [can anyone insert a link for me please?] which has some useful photos of later layout after there had been a big clear-out in the early 1980s. From what I can see it looks like the Fruit Dock was removed (out of use in mid '60s) and an extra loop road was put in its place. Beyond the Fruit Dock loop there were four ? sidings accessed from the south end of the p.16 / loco sidings lines. The 1951 signalling plan shows an Up Reception line (accessed from the north end) and then the Scarborough Goods lines with Branches Yard (three roads) beyond that round to York Yard South box. By the time I remember the rest of Branches Yard and the coal drops sidings had all been cleared. I remember there was a siding coming in from YYS that had a small crane and a mess van at the end of it for quite some time.

Does anyone have any info please of the layout, or other photos / images particularly towards the York Yard South end of Branches Yard after the engine sheds / roundhouses had been demolished ?  

As an aside, there was a flat roofed WWII style brick building just over from the south end of p.16 which had some name written on the white barge board above the doors. Anyone remember it, or have a photo ? Mine's too grainy to read what it says. 

Been trawling through photos etc. of S.R. design SUB and EPB units to work out which way round the trailers are positioned in the unit and what electrical fittings / conduits there are at each end. As originally built the 'standard' all-steel SUBs and the S.R. design EPBs had the trailers a particular way round - if you look for the red-painted handle of the communication cord alarm at the cantrail it's at the inner end of the unit on a compartment trailer (which should have a wearing plate for the centre coupling), and at the end of an open trailer adjacent to the motor coach (this coach has a centre buffer at both ends). The other (non-communication cord) end of each trailer on a SUB should have the terminal box mounted high up on the end with a large box sticking out lower down to the right that contained the lighting contactors / switches. At the roof line there are three connection boxes for the control train lines, lighting control, and power train line. Far as I know on all SUBs the jumpers between the coaches were hard-wired in at both ends, and not plug / receptacle as they were on later units EPBs etc.

Does anyone have any photos of the ends of the vehicles where you can see the layout of the conduits please ?

At the inner end, do the jumpers cross over each other or are they straight across the gap between the trailers ? [ they need to be crossed over / swap sides somewhere, and this doesn't appear to be done in the roof conduits ? ]

Later, when the compartment trailers were exchanged to have all-open coaches in the units in traffic, the substituted TSO appears to have been randomly either way round ? It would have had to have the centre buffer at the inner end changed to a wearing plate. Anyone know how the jumper connections were altered please ?

The units going for scrap with two compartment trailers would have also needed a centre buffer / wearing plate swap at the inner end, but I guess they never needed to bother with the electrical jumpers if the units were hauled to the storage locations / scrapyard. 

On EPBs there was a large terminal / connection box at roof level for the control, heating, and lighting jumpers, with a separate terminal box for the power train line jumper. The jumpers were hard-wired to the coach end that had the centre buffer adjacent to the motor coach, and plugged into receptacles on the motor coach end with the wearing plate. The inner end of the compartment trailer had a wearing plate and the open coach a centre buffer, but I think both had receptacles with loose plug-to-plug jumpers between the coaches, if anyone can confirm please ? Again, how / where was the crossover done ? There's a photo of the end of the TSO from 5176 at Coventry that has an extra-long power jumper that looks long enough to reach across to the other side as this unit had its compartment coach exchanged for an open. When this was done on EPBs the coach appears to have always been put in with the hard-wired jumper end facing the motor coach (red alarm handles at outer ends). Similar was done for the 4COM units that ended up with two compartment trailers.

For facelifted EPBs the orientation of the trailers depended on whether they started out as compartments, converted to open, or were originally open. Some units were facelifted 'complete' with original trailers one TS and one TSO that remained the same way round. Others had exchanged one or both trailers for compartment ones prior to going for facelifting so the orientation varies. At the inner end of the unit the loose jumpers were replaced by jumpers hard-wired to the trailer that had the centre buffer and receptacles on the other one that had the wearing plate. Does anyone have photos of the inner ends of facelifted units please ?

Inside the trailers, which way round was the 2+3 seating and which end was door 'A' at ? Originally I think 'A' was always the inner end of both trailers, but I've seen photos of later coaches with the little white downward-pointing wheel 1 arrow at the end adjacent to the motor coach - possibly exchanged TSOs ?

Any help would be appreciated. I could do with a trip to Margate to look at 4732 but I'm at the other end of the country !

39 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

... removal of periscopes !

Any idea of the range of dates for their removal ? Don't remember ever seeing any still remaining into the '80s so presume all had been removed well before that date ?

Bodywork differences are probably limited to early builds without window frames, and later ones with B.R. / Bardic alloy framed windows. Roof-wise there's nothing much to vary, other than maybe the ones that lost the roof grab rails above the end ascending steps once the upper steps had been removed in overhead electrification days. On some the short grab handrails remained on the roof. If you're looking at the original ordinary BGs that became NAV with the original B.R.1 bogies, the first batches were built with uncompensated brakegear, whereas later batches were built with compensated brakegear (and many older ones were modified to make them compensated). Same is true of other of the early Standard Carriage / Mk.1 vehicle types. The different brake linkages result in two outwardly-visible differences :

Uncompensated brakegear has the pull rods to the bogies mounted low down and pull almost horizontally from the cylinder cross shaft to the bogies below axle height. On these vehicles the vac brake cylinder at each end has to be mounted inboard of the 'V' hanger. For compensated brakegear (and any with Commonwealth or B4 / B5 bogies) the brake cylinders are mounted outer to the bogie side of the 'V' hanger and the pull from the cross shaft is taken over the top of the bogie frame, so the pull rod is mostly hidden between the frame members. 

Bear in mind also vertical curves ... that being intentional at the top of an incline or bottom of a descent, resulting from the gradient changing over a short length of track. Overhang causes the buffer height to rise or dip particularly for long wheelbase or bogie centres. Then there's the unintentional vertical displacement resulting from poor track, dipped joints, and the like.

The more curvature that must be accommodated, the larger the diameter of buffer needed. Oval buffers are the optimum combination where vertical displacement is expected to be relatively low as for example with well-maintained track. Locomotives that typically find themselves on 'loose' or industrial track will normally have oversize round buffers.

The rectangular buffer appears to be a popular European take on the oval.

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Green suggest they might probably have been used for 'Green Arrow' consigned traffic although usually a separate little label was stuck onto the wagon label for that.

There was a green arrow gummed 'target' with the text 'REGISTERED' that was stuck into the appropriate space at the top of the wagon label that I presume was for this purpose.

Later there was 'RWS' on a red and white gummed label that indicated Registered Wagon Service, which I think was the successor to the Green Arrow service ?

20 hours ago, Fishoutofwater said:

Just a guess - to highlight different types of traffic e.g. perishables/fragile/dangerous etc

The labels I've seen with this colour option seem to offer all three of (B) black, (G) green, and (O) orange variants with all printed text the same - just the colour being different. Applies to many different traffics - general use labels for class 3 traffics, and such as potatoes, sugar beet, and weighed in transit labels in each colour option. (not sure if anything can be read into it but sugar beet labels in black or orange are fairly common but not seen a green one ?)

One thing I did wonder is if it differentiated N.E. and G.E. regions from the E.R. in general, but I've not been able to find anything that gives a clue if there's anything to verify that.

Many varieties of wagon labels around the 1960s have the traffic, class, and the box around the destination / routing information printed with either orange or green ink instead of black. This appears to have been only an Eastern Region feature though. Anyone know what these colours signified please ?

As an asside, 45 138 was floating around in 1983 / 1984 on such as the Newcastle - Liverpool Trans-Pennines sporting blue stars ! No multi jumpers of course (notwithstanding the ETH jumpers that would be re-using the same positions).

Thanks for that BeRTIe. Much appreciated.

My search last week didn't throw up that one but I know of that seller, they list huge numbers of documents and there's often some real obscure gems in amongst, just takes a while to scroll through them all !

I'll get reading when it comes.

Cheers.

As it says on the tin ... would anyone happen to have a list please of the routing codes as used for example on wagon labels that have the three character (e.g. two letters and one numeric digit) boxes that was used prior to the introduction of TOPS ?

Had a graze of the Internet, but nothing found.

As well as the reasons already given up-thread, the drive stretcher bar is fitted to the switch rails nearer the toe end sleeper than the other drive timber (the two extended timbers to which the lever box is mounted). The hole in the lever box mechanism to which the drive rod is fitted is nearer the 'normal' / free end of the box, so when fitted the way round as photo 'A' the drive rod is roughly parallel to the drive timbers. If it's a double throw / two-way lever box, there are connecting pin holes on both sides of the mechanism so it can be fitted the correct way round on either side of the turnout depending on available space etc. If it's fitted the other 'B' way round, the drive rod will be at a noticeable angle to the timbers.

There was a liquefaction plant at the LNG terminal at Glenmavis - this was the nearest to the Scottish Independent Undertakings as they are termed. There were other plants at Partington, Avonmouth, Aberdare etc. that could also supply via road tankers. The plant at Glenmavis 'packed up' around 2010, and the other sites were either in the process of closing or scheduled to go by 2018 (or before). Avonmouth was converted to store LPG instead of LNG. That now leaves Isle of Grain as one of the remaining places with liquefaction facilities and reasonable transport links.

Despite the LNG terminals in South West Wales being built on sites formerly oil refineries which had extensive rail loading sidings and connection to the B.R. network, these sites in their new role receive LNG by ship and export the gas into the pipeline network.