railroadbill

Hi Colin, Impressive paintwork on your Kirk 2Bil - can I ask what paint you used? Are they Gibson knobs on the cab handrails? Have some to use on a steam loco upgrade. Very interesting thread,thanks. Bill

Had a rather similar problem with a dealer I won't name, with an order for another product that has also been in short supply. Ordered early last year, the dealer left a phone message recently to say the item had arrived. When I phoned back, they'd sold out but more were expected. Then the item had sold out and they wern't getting any more. So they could change my order to another livery that would be delivered to them "soon". As it happened, that version really had sold out, but they wern't going to say that. Then they e-mailed to say that they now had some of the original type I'd ordered. When I phoned up the next day to confirm this, I was told with aggressive rudeness that they didn't have any after all. A manager finally confirmed that the e-mail was correct and they had the original type of item I'd ordered and it would be sent to me. It wasn't. I phoned again, yes, it would be sent. Several days later, it was. Due to problems with the courier, I finally received the (badly packed) item a week later. Hoorah. The point being, like the problems listed above in this thread, I could have bought one from another dealer (when they were still available earlier in this saga) if I wasn't being strung along. There's even more to this story but you get the picture. Good for Kernow in actually proving that they have what they advertise! I know where to go next time.

Something I don't think I've seen commented on is the very good slow running of this model. I left mine moving as slowly as I could while working on another part of the layout. Over half an hour later it had travelled 4 ft 2 inches. That's on dc.

Had a running problem with my newly acquired Western Legionaire and pm'd Dapol Dave for some advice as to whether I could fix it myself. Immediately received a very helpful reply from Dave, who suggested sending loco to DCC supplies. The lady I spoke to at DCC was very efficient, helpful, friendly and polite. DCC supplies are excellent in e-mailing at each stage of the repair process and the loco was returned to me very well packed by a reputable courier (Parcel force). The loco now runs superbly. Had it running light round loft for a while to run in and after their repair it just purrs round. Wonderful service from DCC supplies, and from Dapol Dave himself. It's refreshing in this day and age to get such second to none service! Top marks to Dapol and DCC. Cheers, Bill

Thanks very much for the heads up, Dave. I now have the info to go back to Hattons and find out what they propose to do with my pre-order, now 14 months old. ........ Thanks to posters on this thread I now know of a couple of dealers who still have this version. As you said, Dave, there are Dapol 52s out there so I should be able to get one this time around, .......... I'll pm you about the situation. Great customer care from yourself, Dave, that's Dapol and RMweb 12 points, ............ (Eurovision joke). Bill

Thanks, Dave. Wasn't having a go at any particular retailer, but I was genuinely expecting loco would arrive in my hands soon. But perhaps plan B will be needed.... cheers, Bill

Hi Dave Hattons tell me that my pre-order for 4D-003-001 D1029 'Western Legionaire' BR Maroon with syp will be sent when they receive the second half of the batch of their order for this loco. Is it possible to say when the second half of this batch is likely to be received by yourselves and dispatched to them? Just like to know when to expect it.. Thanks.

Cracking videos, the wheel slip sequence is very interesting - guess as each bogie is powered by a different engine, controlling slip must have been a bit difficult. And great exhaust note. Nice to hear it again. Remember a friend running a Trix Western on a rake of maroon coaches on his layout years ago, looked just the part (though there are high hopes for the Dapol model, of course...) Bill

When I were a little lad we went on our summer holiday to Padstow in Cornwall, travelling (wonderfully) by Southern Region steam hauled train from Waterloo. We started to see the new order of diesels when stopping at Exeter St Davids for an engine change, (rebuilt MN or original/rebuilt WC/BB off, always an unrebuilt WC/MN on) when western region expresses would be stopping there also. I had a few Warships (which we were never to travel behind) and Westerns copped in my Ian Allen book. 1964 was the last time we travelled on the ACE, after which it was withdrawn. No more main line steam until preservation days. We travelled twice more to Cornwall by train, in 1965 and 1966. 1965 saw us go to Exeter from Paddington on a maroon Western hauled train (maroon stock) then over the North Cornwall line by DMU. 1966 involved travelling to Bodmin Road then up the branch to Wadebridge and then Padstow, again by DMU. We had a maroon Western to Exeter then double headed class 22s took the Penzance bound train to drop us off at Bodmin road. On the return trip, one Maroon Western took the train all the way from Bodmin Rd to Paddington. So it was the always steam Southern, where you'd see anything from a newly rebuilt WC to a Beattie well tank, giving way to the new order Western diesel hydraulics. Think we finished the diesel trips without breaking down but those early diesels had a bad press for unreliability. However, at the time I thought that technically, a twin engined loco with the intriguing Maybach "tunnel" engines where the crankshaft bearings were bigger than the crankshaft, was fascinating engineering, even if they had displaced those beautiful Great Western express locos. That was it for rail journyings to Cornwall until the days of railtours but that's another story. I'd "spotted" various Westerns, Warships, Hymeks and 22s but I can't now from my saved notebooks work out which Westerns we actually travelled behind. But they were quite an experience, with their high-revving engines, different from the low revving Sultzer 47s and English Electric powered locos that I would become familiar with in my early commuting days. Had one last run behind a Western in 1971 coming back from a trip to Oxford. I didn't have much interest in railways then due to cars and so on, and steam had gone and not yet started to come back for railtours. However, I picked it up again in the mid 1970s when I saw several 52s on their last days near Cranmore. This was on a rail tour to the East Somerset railway. The train had been pulled by a 31 but near Cranmore we had a chance of being pulled by a 52 for the last bit of the journey. Umfortunately, the railtour organisers couldn't fit their home-made head board on the Western so that loco was turned down - sadly, because it would have been a good chance for a last run. But the best time was the early to mid sixties when the WR were still pushing the hydraulic concept hard. So, if you remember listening to "Teen Scene" or "Light Night Extra" on your transistor radio, the early Western era will bring back 1965 or thereabouts, with steam sadly just about gone. I await my Maroon Dapol loco with interest. Bill

Well, it's been a fascinating thread and after so much informed effort to get shape and detail of the model correct it should be terrific. I just had to pre-order a Maroon syp 00 version. Looking forward to it being 1965 (my memories of them) all over again.....

Thanks Nick and Coombe Martin for the info about steam heating connections - and also that a couple of "imported" 3Fs had tender vents. My large express loco models have tended to have steam heat connections fitted but I haven't really considered smaller locos. Another detailing project looms...

Too true! One more query about 3Fs - on the Bachmann box they make the point that some 3Fs were fitted for passenger work with vacuum brakes and steam heat which locos for unfitted freight wouldn't have needed. The Bachmann model has vacuum pipes on loco and tender buffer beams. Now, the SDJR locos must have been vacuum fitted to work passenger stock , (this shows on many photos of the front of locos) but what sort of steam heating connection was fitted to the tenders, presumably a pipe hanging below the buffer beam secured in a D shape? I can't find any photos showing the back of a 3F tender, or drawings with a steam connection fitted. Did they all have a fitting? Bill

1. No (sob). Afraid RM web wasn't around in 1981 or thereabouts when I built it. Tender also has a ludicously overcomplicated sprung/compensated chassis that I developed that does however pick up current very well. So a tad too late to rebuild it perhaps, I'd have to take all the real coal off... The etched smokebox number plate came from Eames of Reading as a custom job. There's a name from the past. Also at the time I sprayed the loco with polyurethene matt varnish, which I would not now do as I believe the spray is carcenogenic. However the finish is very good and extremely tough, strong as tank armour, lasted well after all these years. So I can't renumber it or do much to the tender (however, I'll look into the coalrails/front coal plate thing but tender will still be too wide...) 2. No, the "SDJR in the 50s link" is all DC (including as it does Airfix 4Fs and split chassis 4mts etc.) There is a totally seperate blue diesel link with DCC chips but that's a totally different story). Therefore the Bachmann 3F will blissfully stay as DC. However, thanks for advice as one day, who knows, the whole layout could be DCC. The only problem I've had with the loco is related to what you've said, in that the wires from loco to tender plug are rather long and kept rubbing against the front tender wheels. Also, one of the loco pick ups got caught between the spokes of a driving wheel making odd clicking noises whjile I was running it in. All sorted now. Worrying thought: when I built the MPD kit, the SDJR had been closed for 15 years. 1981 is now 31 years ago..... Cheers and happy SDJRing Bill

Thanks, Nick Jerry and Combe martin for the above info about water scoop tenders. Looks like the Bachmann 3F I've now got has the right tender for a non-Bulldog loco on the SDJR, so I can have one of each type (having already got a kit built version of "Bulldog" 43194). 43682 sounds a good number. Ta, Bill

1. Like devonseasider I built an MPD 3F. Mine was numbered as 43194, one of the SDJR ones. Thanks to the very useful info in this thread I'll just have to fit front sand boxes and the operating rod to finally finish it.... 2. I bought a Bachman 3F, excellent model, intending to renumber it to one that had run on the SDJR. (The model comes as 43762, with the early emblem on the tender). Now in the spare parts list in the instructions, 2 tender tops are shown, one with 2 vents, one without. Th early emblem model doesn't have vents. The instructions state that the versions with the vents had a water scoop. Looking through reference books, I can't see any 3F on the SDJR in BR days with a vented tender although it's difficult to make out from the angles of most photos. There do seem to be 4Fs with tender vents, though. So, did any 3Fs have water scoop tenders on the SDJR - and am I right in thinking that the line didn't have water troughs at all? Bill

My Ian Allan ABC for diesel and electric locos winter 1962/63 edition, which I've been looking at over on the Baby Deltic thread, has a picture of D8408 in it. The pic isn't dated nor is the location shown. However, it doesn't have a yellow panel. Although the pics on the page are a bit grainy, a class 20 in another pic clearly shows a contrasting yellow panel so the D8408 definitely doesn't have this. Also it doesn't appear to have the OHLW flashes that BrushVeteran's Statford pic had so presumably is before 6-61. I can't post a scan of this here being copyright but if you'd like me to send you a copy please feel free to pm me - however BrushVeteran's pics may be clearer if they are from bigger originals. Hope this helps.

Back to Baby Deltics. D 5901, as discussed above, is one of the next releases, according to Hatton's web site, as used at Railway Technical Centre - no picture yet, alas! Still £96 for pre order. http://www.ehattons....tockDetail.aspx

Evening all. Back to the plot again. My Ian Allan ABC for winter 62/63 shows Brush A1A-A1A as being both type 2 and type 3. The Mirrlees Bickerton and Day 12 cyl JVS12T engines are variously rated as 1,250 HP at 850rpm (D5500 to D5519), 1365 HP at 900 rpm (most of them) 1600 HP at 950 rpm (D5545 and D5655 to D 5670) and temporarily uprated to 2000 hp D5835. So that ties in with what has been posted above (presumably 2000hp would have really made that loco a type 4 as Phil suggested.) Not long before they would all be re-engined by English Electric. Another pilot scheme non-sucess story. But wasn't Mirrlees Bickerton and Day a wonderful name, though?

The locomotive was D 5901. This was the loco that was later transferred to the BR Research Centre at Derby in August 1969 and was therefore the last surviving 23. The new diesel engine that was earlier going to be tested in D5901 was the English Electric U type, a 12 cylinder high speed engine (1500rpm) 216mm stroke by 197 mm bore, rated at 226 HP per cylinder. I quote from "Diesel Impact on British Rail" by R M Tufnell - "This engine was developed from 1958 to 1963 at a cost of £1.2 million and was then killed off, having run at 2200HP....D5901 was prepared for initial rail testing at 1550HP but the engine was never actually installed". Hope this helps.

Good point about the type 1 (single cab no train heat), classes 20, 15, 16, 17 bear this out. As part of my reading B) I have a book called "the Diesel impact on British rail" by RM Tufnell which was given to me by an old friend who died some years ago but who was working at North British when it folded, sadly I can't ask him all the insider questions I'd now like to! The book does have a diagram showing combinations of engines, transmissions and locos used in main line diesel classes 15-55 and 73-74. There are 9 makes of engine, 9 makes of transmission, and 8 locomotive builders, the mixing and matching being enough for a topic on its own Going back to Baby Deltics, one outcome of tonight's fascinating delve back into the engineering past is that I've bought a mug from the Baby Deltic Project's web site. It has a picture of D5905 at Hitchin on it. cheers all, Bill

That sums it up nicely, the good product company whose market disappears and the other losing the plot...I've enjoyed this chat very much as well, so thanks guys, going to read up on more on NB now.

Thanks, Pennine MC and Stationmaster, had the pilot scheme really been used to test prototypes rather than order untried designs off the drawing board, a lot of money would have been saved. Sadly, the rush for change was the finish for companies like North British, Beyer Peacock and so on, who couldn't adapt quickly enough. Apart from the engine, the rest of the loco seems to have been conventional for its day, so perhaps it was a question of using an available engine within the E-E group for that power output, with the class 20 engine not being powerful enough and the later class 37 engine being too big for a type 2 loco. When the original baby Deltics were built, they turned out to be too heavy anyway, despite the lighter engine, and had to be modified by having various holes cut in them, apparently.

The Baby Deltic Project is in the process of producing a Baby Deltic replica by a "cut and shut" process on a scrap class 37. This already houses the sole remaining T9-29 deltic engine that the group have restored to running order. Their web site is at http://www.thebabydelticproject.co.uk and is well worth a look. I bought their book "Baby Deltic - the story of an engine's rebirth" from the web site and highly recommend it - it is, though, very technical and is about the diesel engine itself and not the locomotives. It is a very though account of the engine and the work needed to get it running again. You can also buy a mug and a mouse mat. Try this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGzhcxqmX1M to hear their engine running (other videos near there as well). I've no links with this group but their efforts are really inspiring. The T9-29 is a nine cylinder version of the Napier Deltic 2 stroke diesel. Both the 9 cylinder and the 18 cylinder (as in class 55s) were developed as marine engines for fast naval craft (the older Ton class minesweeper as captained by Prince Charles had 2 18 cyl engines, the Hunt class was (perhaps still is ) powered by 3 9 cylinder engines). The Deltic diesels had a high power to weight ratio, perhaps not so significant in a small suburban loco however, where reliability should have been more significant. However, a brave design for it's time - and historically fascinating. Do look at the web site - I found it very inspiring even if I only buy the Heljan model! Bill

Thanks for that, Baby Deltic, adds to the story of these interesting locos. My intended Heljan baby deltic purchase was put off by several pre-orders (Beattie well tank etc.) arriving at much the same time. I found I'd actually recorded D5900 in my Ian Allan ABC booklet all those years ago so I thought, there's a clue, I'll have that one. Unfortunately that's the most popular one that has sold out first. Could wait for next tranche or renumber a different one of course. Anyway, my Ian Allan ABC is the winter 1962/3 edition, so I could as a schoolboy have just about seen D5900 in its original form, therefore I should wait for the original version to be produced or assume I'd seen the refurbished version some time from 1964ish onwards and have one of those. Shouldn't be too picky I guess!

Just to add to this, I've got a copy of "Modern railways" for June 1963 (cost 2 shillings and sixpence). Among much gloom and doom about the Beeching report, the magazine also has a picture of a line of 8 Baby Deltics stored out of use at Stratford. Caption states that "It is understood that when a unit of this type sustains an engine failure it is now taken out of traffic". That's when not if. Pic is dated April 6 1963 so by then refurbishment was the next step. Presumably there could have been 2 original condition locos still running at that point?