NFWEM57

Further to my previous contribution about locomotive characteristics, there is an interesting thread on the Scale 4 Forum about Brake Force and Stopping Distance which, in addition to the discussion, references a very interesting BR publication which summarise some of the characteristics for most of the early diesels and electric locomotives and groups of rolling stock.     https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5340

Appears to be a great starting point for setting some of the CVs. 

Whilst I appreciate that hard run locomotives on exhibition layouts need constant maintenance and/or adjustment, this is probably an outlier example, but useful information regarding operating at, or outside of, the design envelope.  Once set up, I doubt I will need to adjust the CVs in my locomotive very often...!

So, perhaps a database of pertinent locomotive characteristics used to inform the relevant CV settings.  For example, acceleration and deceleration times, speed curves, light configuration, braking.  They won't necessarily all be as per the prototype, but would provide the (average) baseline as used by manufacturers for specific models. I have been involved with complex engineering for decades and we always set systems to baseline setting before fine tuning, be that mechanical, electrical or electronic.

I'll run my Class 37 tests and see what comes of it.  I'll also try to find out about the operating characteristics of the prototype; which might prove difficult...! 

5 hours ago, Dungrange said:

If not, it's an idea that will just die off until someone else asks the same question in a few years time.

Yes, rinse, lather, repeat seems to be common to many forums..!

1 minute ago, Dungrange said:

If by 'we' you mean you, then why not? 

You just beat me to it..!  OK, I have 5 types of Class 37 in my collection, all EM gauge, without traction tyres and all Ultrascale. Alan Gibson or Accurascale wheelsets:

• A Lima Class 37 with full size CD motor, it just fits because of the EM gauge conversion.  ESU LokPilot V5 DCC C37 profile 
• A Lima Class 37 with a railroad chassis and AG wheel sets plus additional weight.  ESU LokPilot V5 DCC C37 profile
• Several Bachmann 4 wheel drive with Ultrascale wheels with vanilla ESU V5 Basic 
• Several Bachmann 6 wheel drive with Ultrascale wheels, one with Bachman factory fitted ESU V5 Sound Programmed 
• Several Accurascale with 6 wheel drive Accurascale wheels, all with Accurascale ESU V5 DCC Sound Programmed

So we are looking at similar traction, metal on metal, I will measure draw bar pull and look at the CV settings across the collection.  It will not be overnight, sporting season coming to an end and I am team captain.  But as some have indicated, its a start.  And that was always my goal so that those less confident or unsure have a starting point. Yes, some like 0 to Mach 2 in a splits second, no adjustment needed.  But, it will be a useful exercise to see what the CV variation is.

Assessment about what each lighting CV does noted and I have a DCC modification that allow direction sensitive Red lights and Cab lights using one Aux function respectively only.

Once I have the results I will upload.  Sound decoders come preconfigured, but I do not use sound for the large part but I do want the loco characteristic for non sound decoders.

Thanks for the the feedback.

Which just leaves acceleration, braking, etc.

 I have a few class 37s from different manufacturers fitted with factory set decoders. Perhaps it would be a worthwhile exercise to generate a comparison list to see what the CV spread is.  

1 minute ago, WIMorrison said:

but just as relevant as you comments about mapping of the human genome.

It was to indicate the scale of the task, nothing more.  A manufacture's CV list does not provide an idea of what to set for a particular class/model, that is the issue.

5 minutes ago, ITG said:

The inherited frictions and wear would (could)  cause different speeds, braking and acceleration - hence different compensating cv profiles.

Would be the same for any decoder fitted, sound or otherwise.  It's the baseline settings that are the starting point.

We have mapped the human genome, so this task would be many many orders of magnitude smaller.  You have to start somewhere.  There are circa 7,500 locos in the Model Rail Database and many will be the same model in different liveries.  So that might reduce the list to 750,   A tiny list in reality.  If CVs are provided for the main decoder manufactures that might increase 5 fold.  So, 3,750 profiles and many settings will be similar.  But think of the benefit to others less certain of what CV setting to use.  As far as i am aware, there is no copyright on CV settings...! So, if modeller X wished to use a little known decoder for his little know model of a class 37 for example then a range of profiles might be available for baseline settings.  

Thank for the very swift response but, no, I did not.  My question was about profiles being available.  My observation was that every loco would be different..!  

So, maybe we should start one?

I am trying o find out if there are profiles available for (ESU) DCC Decoders. Not sound decoders, just ordinary decoders.  Every loco is different and I am surprised there is not a site or a service available to list the CV adjustments required.  A Hornby Railroad Class 37 will obviously require different CV setting to a Bachmann or Accurascale one.   Anybody have any idea if there are such profiles available?

I had better pluck up courage to do all the previous updates which are needed to be undertaken one by one before this one.. One error and its back to Germany for a rebuild taking months.  Which is why I have not updated since purchase in 2020..!

Update

I decided to purchase the Shipway parts as, in bulk, it is effectively the same costs per ETS part as buying the West Hill Wagons packs and having a lot of wasted parts.  Just tried to use Shapeways for an order and magically, at the final stage (4) of checkout process, the prices for each item increased by over 20%, nothing to do with VAT, shipping , handling etc which were all itemised separately.  Luckily I spotted it, so caveat emptor with Shapeways. I have sent them a complaint, doubt I'll get a response. I know the USA considers the UK to be treasure island, they can charge want they want and we will pay, but significantly uplifting the price during the checkout process..!  Surely that is illegal...in the UK at least..!

I have sent an email to the developer, who is UK based, to see what options there are.  

Just tried to use Shapeways for an order, reluctantly, and magically at the final stage (4) of checkout the prices for each item increased by over 20%, nothing to do with VAT, shipping , handling etc which were al itemised separately.  Luckily I spotted it, so caveat emptor with Shapeways. I have sent them a complaint, doubt I'll get a response. I know the USA considers the UK to be treasure island, they can charge want they want and we will pay, but significantly uplifting the price during the checkout process..!  Surely that is illegal...in the UK at least..!

I was after Class 47 ETS and MW connecters. I make my own pipe work but the TTS and MW connectors would like parts more detailed than I can make myself.  The recent West Hill Wagon packs are too expensive for just the ETS parts and lack the MW connectors.  If only the UK developers of the parts would manufacture and sell within the UK.  For interest I have been running a separate thread on this. 

Fascinating thread.  Now officially an OAP, I think I am fairly safe with my wired ESU DCC set up..!  Who know, the major DCC manufacturers and the NMRA might agree a wireless standard one day..!

I purchased an ECoS for my planned layout a few years ago, and have used it primarily to set up decoders whilst using a Dynamis Ultima for my test track; Dual EM, OO(75), OO(100) and N gauge loops, all with turnouts and sidings various, with a short elevated O gauge run and a Y turnout.  Recently I set the long address on a LokPilot 5 Basic using the ECoS and then went to test the locomotive on the test track.  Annoyingly, the Dynamis keeps resetting the long address to 1000.  I was unable to find a reason why online so decided to take the plunge, purchase a Lok Programmer to use for decoder setting up and use the ECoS for the test track.  Nearly all my decoders are ESU so the 'ESU decoder only' constraint for the Lok Programmer is not an issue and I always have the ECoS for other manufacturers decoders.  I have a number of other decoders which I will fit to refurbished and refreshed older stock I am selling on.  LaisDCC, etc.

To my surprise the Lok Programmer has more functionality for non ESU decoders that I thought.  For non ESU decoder fitted locomotives you can:

• Run the loco and select lights and other functions from the drivers cab.
• Change the short address.
• When reading decoder information, see the values of CV7 and CV8 (Manufacturer).
• Have not checked decoder reset yet but will do so.

There may be more hidden functionality for non ESU decoders, I will update if I find any more.  I now have a Dynamis Ultima for sale which should recoup the cost of the Lok Programmer..!

This may be common knowledge but I thought I would share anyway.

There is a point where one needs to stand back and look at the options including the time required to manufacture a part oneself.  Whilst the various pipes were easy, the ETH parts are proving more difficult.  So a comparison of the options is required looking at ease of manufacture, cost, time, fidelity and fragility.

My attempt at manufacturing ETH and MW parts  proved to be time consuming, difficult due to size, have poor fidelity but are more robust and inexpensive.  So what are the options?

• The West Hill Wagons Works sets are high fidelity, already assembled, moderately expensive if you just want to use the ETH/MW parts alone but are somewhat fragile; both the ETH cable had broken off from the junction boxes on the set I purchased..  Effectively, £3.79 for a locomotive.
• Shapeway sell a set of 5 pairs of ETH boxes minus cables (so 10 in all) which look to be very high fidelity for £19.72 and therefore £3.94 per locomotive. .  Shapeway also manufacture the MW connectors, 20 for £10.42.    The catch is postage from the country of manufacture US which is a staggering £21.44 and the added VAT resulting in nearly £10 per locomotive. 

The Shapeway sets would have been ideal but not at that cost, so it will have to be a hybrid solution.  Pity Shapeway do not manufacture in the UK but I have purchased their parts before using a UK importer at much lower cost so I have made an enquiry.

If Shapways is not an option, I will use the West Hill sets but fit copper wires in place of the very brittle cable already fitted (and which are already broken).

Patrick

I purchased over 20 of these a while back and whilst they are a great design, hats off to James, they are just too bulky for my needs; they would not fit on the  cramped underside of my test track so the MERGs stay in place.  I have since switched exclusively to MP1s for turnouts and will probably used dingo's for semaphores.  Shame, like to support UK innovators, but physical size was the down side for me.

I have attempted to make the ETH/MW part in the images above but it has not been entirely successful by 'hand'.  So intend to try another approach using a compound table/ machine vice to hold the parts, mill to size and then drill the 1mm and 0.7mm holes required.  This might also be the only method to make the angled connector on later ETH gear. 

11 hours ago, hayfield said:

BUT building track is not about saving money

If you require 80~100 turnouts for a layout then it is most certainly the cost..! 

On 29/11/2022 at 11:06, hayfield said:

Over the years we have discussed marketing products and this year Phil took up the suggestion of having a show special, a cheap no frills turnout in a bag for £25, everything the standard kits have except the ready built common crossings and switch rails (even had track gauges and insulated wire tiebars)

Hats off to C&L for adapting but I do wonder if this is to compete with British Finescale (BF) offerings, which are £27 per turnout with machined crossing V and switch blades?  It is the very high cost of C&L turnouts that has been the issue for me from the start which is why I used EMGS B6s and BF Crossings and Slips for my test track and will be making my own bespoke turnouts required for my layout where EMGS and BF solutions are not suitable. 

On 14/08/2023 at 09:45, anthony allen said:

good colour match (humbol) for the yellow front end

Acrylic or Enamel??

Hi, 

Thank you for the alternative solutions suggested above.  I am a member of MERG so have looked at Arduino and other solutions.  To me, the MP1 and MP5  turnout motors really fit the bill.  The issue remaining is with what do i drive them and, for me, the jury is still out.  I may yet use an ESU product but the latest developments with their ease of setting up is really good news.  Minimum wiring, minimum setup, brilliant.  I'll still use servos for the semaphores or i may go hybrid and have lights on the mainline and semaphores on the branch lines of my layout.

Patrick

West Hill parts finally arrived.   They are quite impressive, if a little fragile..!

Class 37 MW Connectors and Cables,  Class 45  ETH Cables and Connectors, Early Class 47  ETH and finally Class 47 ETH.

The C45 and early C47 and late C47 are identical although the later C47 has a different cable layout.  The C37 set is different but quite simple. 

I will attempt to replicate using round and square plastic rod and wire already acquired.  Whilst the excellent detail on the West Hill offerings will be missing it will be similar to the C45 offerings from Bachmann, below, and as my formations will rarely be stationary, close enough for 'watch the trains go by ' use..!.  

Patrick

Thank you for all the feedback and advice.  I have a little time to watch the latest systems (Lodi & YaMoRC) develop before I commit and I will be using iTrain for automation.   Who knows, perhaps ESU and others will react to the latest developments.  The Lodi 16SD & MP1 option is slightly cheaper than the YaMoRC & MP1 option but Lodi is pretty expensive for servo control and no sign of current sensors yet, critical for automation.  But although YaMoRC have current sensors they have yet to release a servo controller.   As always, one size does not fit all.  But my (growing) key user requirements are:

• Separate Supply for control modules using DCC for control only.
• Inexpensive (per unit) turnout, semaphore and light signalling solutions with easy set up.  The Yodi did impress on the simplicity of turnout and switching setup; no CVs to fiddle with.
• Current feedback solution for block detection.
• Booster regions within a booster
• Compatible with iTrain
• Feedback from locomotives and some accessories

Patrick